Isaiah 14:12 Lucifer translation

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 17, 2008

Greetings. I was translating Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 and I notice there was a bit of confusion on Isaiah 14:12 and the word used for "lucifer".
This is how that verse is word for word in the Hebrew

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Isaiah 14:12
How thou fell from heavens! howl-thee!<03213 yalal> son of dawn<01966 heylel>.
Thou was hewn down to land, one defeating over nations.

03213 yalal a primitive root; TWOT - 868; v
AV - howl 29, howlings 1, variant 1; 31
1) (Hiphil) to howl, wail, make a howling

01966 heylel { from 01984
(in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m
AV - Lucifer 1; 1
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
======================
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O Morning Star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations.

JPS1917 OT) Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!

Orthodox Jewish Bible)
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from Shomayim, O Heilel Ben Shachar (Bright One of the Dawn, Day Star, Lucifer)! How art thou cast down to the earth, thou, which hast laid low the Goyim!

NASB) Isaiah 14:12
"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

KJV) Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
[how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {O Lucifer: or, O day star}

NKJV) Isaiah 14:12
" How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
[How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
================
How
אֵ֛יךְ (’êḵ)
Interjection
Strong's Hebrew 349: How?, how!, where
you have fallen
נָפַ֥לְתָּ (nā·p̄al·tā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - second person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 5307: To fall, lie
from heavens,
מִשָּׁמַ֖יִם (miš·šā·ma·yim)
Preposition-m | Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 8064: Heaven, sky
O Morning Star,
הֵילֵ֣ל (hê·lêl)
Noun - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1966: The morning-star
son
בֶּן־ (ben-)
Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 1121: A son
of the dawn!
שָׁ֑חַר (šā·ḥar)
Noun - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7837: Dawn
You have been cut down
נִגְדַּ֣עְתָּ (niḡ·da‘·tā)
Verb - Nifal - Perfect - second person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1438: To fell a, tree, to destroy anything
to the ground,
לָאָ֔רֶץ (lā·’ā·reṣ)
Preposition-l, Article | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 776: Earth, land
O destroyer
חוֹלֵ֖שׁ (ḥō·w·lêš)
Verb - Qal - Participle - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 2522: To prostrate, to overthrow, decay
of
עַל־ (‘al-)
Preposition
Strong's Hebrew 5921: Above, over, upon, against
nations.
גּוֹיִֽם׃ (gō·w·yim)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 1471: A foreign nation, a Gentile, a troop of animals, a flight of locusts

===================================
Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus, send the Messenger of Me to testify to ye these things upon the Assemblies.
I AM the Root and the gener<1085> of [*the] David, the Star<792> the Shining<2986>, the Morning/Dawn<4407>.

Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star."

Jewish Orthodox Bible)
16 I, Yehoshua/Yeshua [Zech 6:11-12; Ezra 3:8] sent My malach (angel) to give solemn eidus (testimony) to you of these things, for the Kehillot.
I am the Shoresh (root) and the tzemach of Dovid, the Kokhav HaShachar

New American Standard Bible
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches.
I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
King James Bible
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
World English Bible
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies.
I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star."
Young's Literal Translation
'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies;
I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!
========================
16
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
egw ihsouV epemya ton aggelon mou marturhsai umin tauta epi taiV ekklhsiaiV
egw eimi h riza kai to genoV tou dabid o asthr o lamproV kai orqrinos

Byzantine Majority
egw ihsouV epemya ton aggelon mou marturhsai umin tauta epi taiV ekklhsiaiV
egw eimi h riza kai to genoV dad o asthr o lamproV o prwinos

Alexandrian
egw ihsouV epemya ton aggelon mou marturhsai umin tauta epi taiV ekklhsiaiV
egw eimi h riza kai to genoV dauid o asthr o lamproV o prwinos

Hort and Westcott
egw ihsouV epemya ton aggelon mou marturhsai umin tauta epi taiV ekklhsiaiV
egw eimi h riza kai to genoV dauid o asthr o lamproV o prwinoV
======================
“I,
Ἐγὼ (Egō)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Nominative 1st Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
Jesus,
Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2424: Of Hebrew origin; Jesus, the name of our Lord and two other Israelites.
have sent
ἔπεμψα (epempsa)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 1st Person Singular
Strong's Greek 3992: To send, transmit, permit to go, put forth.
My
μου (mou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
angel
ἄγγελόν (angelon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 32: From aggello; a messenger; especially an 'angel'; by implication, a pastor.
to give you this testimony
μαρτυρῆσαι (martyrēsai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's Greek 3140: To witness, bear witness, give evidence, testify, give a good report. From martus; to be a witness, i.e. Testify.
for
ἐπὶ (epi)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1909: On, to, against, on the basis of, at.
the
ταῖς (tais)
Article - Dative Feminine Plural
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
churches.
ἐκκλησίαις (ekklēsiais)
Noun - Dative Feminine Plural
Strong's Greek 1577: From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation.
I
ἐγώ (egō)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Nominative 1st Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
am
εἰμι (eimi)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 1st Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.
the
ἡ (hē)
Article - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Root
ῥίζα (rhiza)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 4491: A root, shoot, source; that which comes from the root, a descendent. Apparently a primary word; a 'root'.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 2532: And, even, also, namely.
the
τὸ (to)
Article - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Offspring
γένος (genos)
Noun - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 1085: Offspring, family, race, nation, kind. From ginomai; 'kin'.
of David,
Δαυίδ (Dauid)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 1138: David, King of Israel. Of Hebrew origin; Dabid, the Israelite king.
the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
bright
λαμπρός (lampros)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2986: From the same as lampas; radiant; by analogy, limpid; figuratively, magnificent or sumptuous.
Morning
πρωϊνός (prōinos)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 4407: Belonging to the morning, early. From proi; pertaining to the dawn, i.e. Matutinal.
Star.�
ἀστὴρ (astēr)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 792: A star. Probably from the base of stronnumi; a star, literally or figuratively.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 17, 2008

That word is used for the Singular in only one other place and that is Zech 11:2. [that is why I like to use the "thee's, thou's and ye's] Interesting.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 14:12 How thou fell from heavens! howl-thee/!/03213 yalal son of dawn/01966 heylel. Thou was hewn down to land, one defeating over nations.

Zechariah 11:2 Howl-thee! fir-tree, that cedar falls which majestic ones are spoiled: howl-ye!, oaks of Bashan, that comes down forest of the one defended.

03213 yalal {yaw-lal'} a primitive root; TWOT - 868; v
AV - howl 29, howlings 1, variant 1; 31
1) (Hiphil) to howl, wail, make a howling

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 17, 2008

Any comments on this?

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 18, 2008

So which is the correct rendering. "howl!" or "Lucifer". I really am curious about this. Thanks.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 14:12 How thou fell from heavens! howl-thee/!/03213 yalal son of dawn/01966 heylel. Thou was hewn down to land, one defeating over nations.

Zechariah 11:2 Howl-thee! fir-tree, that cedar falls which majestic ones are spoiled: howl-ye!, oaks of Bashan, that comes down forest of the one defended.

03213 yalal {yaw-lal'} a primitive root; TWOT - 868; v
AV - howl 29, howlings 1, variant 1; 31
1) (Hiphil) to howl, wail, make a howling

NKJV) Isaiah 14:12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 18, 2008

Anyone?

JayJay77 · Sep 18, 2008

So, are you debating whether or not this verse has parallel meanings pointing to Satan's fall?

It's obviously talking about the Babylonian King at the time.

That is an interesting point. NIV says "morning star." I'm still learning, so I have more questions than I do thoughts or answers.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

JayJay77 said:
So, are you debating whether or not this verse has parallel meanings pointing to Satan's fall?

It's obviously talking about the Babylonian King at the time.

That is an interesting point. NIV says "morning star." I'm still learning, so I have more questions than I do thoughts or answers.

Greetings. I am still learning the greek and hebrew myself.

I found this interesting while translating the last chapter of Revelation. The T-R uses #3720 while the W-H and B-M use #4407. What is the difference or is there any. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

[ISA] Reve 22:16 I Jesus, send the messenger of Me to testify to ye these-things upon the out-calleds. I AM the root and the gener of [*the] David. The star, the splendid, the morning/dawn.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

TexRec) Revelation 22:16 egw ihsouV epemya ton aggelon mou marturhsai umin tauta epi taiV ekklhsiaiV egw eimi h riza kai to genoV tou dauid o asthr o lamproV kai orqrinoV

W-H) Revelation 22:16 egw ihsouV epemya ton aggelon mou marturhsai umin tauta epi taiV ekklhsiaiV egw eimi h riza kai to genoV dauid o asthr o lamproV o prwinoV

ByzMaj) Revelation 22:16 egw ihsouV epemya ton aggelon mou marturhsai umin tauta epi taiV ekklhsiaiV egw eimi h riza kai to genoV dauid o asthr o lamproV o prwinoV

3720. orthrinos or-thrin-os' from 3722; relating to the dawn, i.e. matutinal (as an epithet of Venus, especially brilliant in the early day):--morning.
3722. orthros or'-thros from the same as 3735; dawn (as sun-rise, rising of light); by extension, morn:--early in the morning.

4407. proinos pro-ee-nos' from 4404; pertaining to the dawn, i.e. matutinal:--morning.
4404. proi pro-ee' adverb from 4253; at dawn; by implication, the day-break watch:--early (in the morning), (in the) morning.

MrSnow · Sep 19, 2008

When looking at the Strong's, it says that the translation is morning star, not howl. I had never heard of howl being the translation. Either way, Lucifer is clearly not the correct translation.

LamorakDesGalis · Sep 19, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings. I was translating Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 and I notice there was a bit of confusion on Isaiah 14:12 and the word used for "lucifer".

LLOJ,
The term "lucifer" is Latin and means "light bearer." In the Latin Vulgate Bible the term also occurs in Job 11:17 and 2 Peter 1:19.

The KJV translators decided to retain the Latin "lucifer" and translate it as a proper noun "Lucifer" referring to the Devil, Satan. So the origins for the term "lucifer" are from the Latin and not from the original Hebrew.

LittleLambofJesus said:
This is how that verse is word for word in the hebrew and what I can't figure out is why "howl ye!" is not shown in most Bible versions.

There is really only one Hebrew word. The difference being in how this one Hebrew word is pointed: either helel or yalal.

The Hebrew phrase helel ben-sahar is literally "Helel, son of Shachar." This is a reference to a specific Canaanite god named "Helel." In Canaanite mythology, Helel attempted to overthrow the gods, failed, and was banished to the underworld. Isaiah was sarcastically comparing the Babylonian king's atttitude with Helel's attitude that he could even possibly overthrow the gods.

Some Christians see a dual reference to both the Babylonian king and Satan here, while other Christians believe that the only referent is the Babylonian king.

LDG

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

MrSnow said:
When looking at the Strong's, it says that the translation is morning star, not howl. I had never heard of howl being the translation. Either way, Lucifer is clearly not the correct translation.

Greetings. I suppose I will have to look up the precise hebrew word. Like I said, that same form is also used in Zech 11:2. Thanks for your thoughts and let me go find a hebrew site real quick.

Isaiah 14:12 How thou fell from heavens! howl-thee/!/03213 yalal son of dawn/01966 heylel. Thou was hewn down to land, one defeating over nations.

Zechariah 11:2 Howl-thee!/03213 yalal fir-tree, that cedar falls which majestic ones are spoiled: howl-ye!, oaks of Bashan, that comes down forest of the one defended.

03213 yalal {yaw-lal'} a primitive root; TWOT - 868; v
AV - howl 29, howlings 1, variant 1; 31
1) (Hiphil) to howl, wail, make a howling

NKJV) Isaiah 14:12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

Here is the Hebrew from this site. What is wrong with it being "howl"

Isaiah 14:12 How thou fell from heavens! howl-thee/!/03213 yalal son of dawn/01966 heylel.

Zechariah 11:2 Howl-thee!/03213 yalal fir-tree,

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

Isaiah 14:12

יב אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; נִגְדַּעְתָּ

Zech 11:2

בהֵילֵל בְּרוֹשׁ כִּי-נָפַל אֶרֶז, אֲשֶׁר אַדִּרִים שֻׁדָּדוּ;

LamorakDesGalis · Sep 19, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Here is the Hebrew from this site. What is wrong with it being "howl"

Isaiah 14:12 How thou fell from heavens! howl-thee/!/03213 yalal son of dawn/01966 heylel.

Zechariah 11:2 Howl-thee!/03213 yalal fir-tree,

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

Isaiah 14:12

יב אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; נִגְדַּעְתָּ

Zech 11:2

בהֵילֵל בְּרוֹשׁ כִּי-נָפַל אֶרֶז, אֲשֶׁר אַדִּרִים שֻׁדָּדוּ;

I checked the website, the vowel pointing isn't the same. In Isaiah 14:12 its sere (two dots), while in Zech 11:2 its patach (line).

The Masoretic text in Isaiah 14:12 is pointed as "helel."

LDG

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

LamorakDesGalis said:
I checked the website, the vowel pointing isn't the same. In Isaiah 14:12 its sere (two dots), while in Zech 11:2 its patach (line).

The Masoretic text in Isaiah 14:12 is pointed as "helel."

LDG

Ok thanks and I will double check again and maybe ask the Jews. I will use "howl" myself, which I am sure he is doing in the "lake of fire"

Reve 20:10 And the devil the one-deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the Fire and of sulfur, the where-are the wild-beast and the false-prophet, and they shall be being tormented day and night into the ages of the ages.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 22, 2008

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Here is the Hebrew from this site. What is wrong with it being "howl"

Isaiah 14:12 How thou fell from heavens! howl-thee/!/03213 yalal son of dawn/01966 heylel.

Zechariah 11:2 Howl-thee!/03213 yalal fir-tree,

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

Isaiah 14:12

יב אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; נִגְדַּעְתָּ

Zech 11:2

בהֵילֵל בְּרוֹשׁ כִּי-נָפַל אֶרֶז, אֲשֶׁר אַדִּרִים שֻׁדָּדוּ;

LamorakDesGalis said:
I checked the website, the vowel pointing isn't the same. In Isaiah 14:12 its sere (two dots), while in Zech 11:2 its patach (line).

The Masoretic text in Isaiah 14:12 is pointed as "helel."

LDG

Where can I see a copy of that? Thanks.

LamorakDesGalis · Sep 22, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Where can I see a copy of that? Thanks.

Here is the same Hebrew text you quoted, only enlarged:

Isaiah 14:12

יב אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; נִגְדַּעְתָּ

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 22, 2008

LamorakDesGalis said:
Here is the same Hebrew text you quoted, only enlarged:

Isaiah 14:12

יב אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; נִגְדַּעְתָּ

But you said it differed than the one used in Zech 11:2 but they show the same here. That is why I asked where you saw the difference at.

I checked the website, the vowel pointing isn't the same. In Isaiah 14:12 its sere (two dots), while in Zech 11:2 its patach (line).

The Masoretic text in Isaiah 14:12 is pointed as "helel."

Zech 11:2

בהֵילֵל בְּרוֹשׁ כִּי-נָפַל אֶרֶז, אֲשֶׁר אַדִּרִים שֻׁדָּדוּ;

Isaiah 14:12

מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 22, 2008

Maybe someone with better eyesight can see if there is a difference between the 2 hebrew words in Isaiah and Zech. I am really curious about his now. Thanks.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 22, 2008

I put this up on the Hebrew Messianic Jewish board and still waiting a response. Anyone else have a view?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7288541

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 23, 2008

How do others view that word. Could it actually mean "Howl" and how would that effect the views of this verse IF that is the meaning? Thanks.

ContraMundum · Sep 23, 2008

I'm not sure I'm following your question, LLoJ.

Could you explain to me where you are at in your question and then maybe I can help?

Isaiah 14:12 Lucifer translation

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Regular Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Messianic Jewish Christian

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