Muslims Riot (again)

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Granted, I do not know many Muslims personally, but the ones I do would never, ever suggest that recent terrorist activities are justified."

I agree. I think it is a literalist way to read the Koran (american spelling).

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How can you or I determine what is the "literalist way to read the Koran"?  I am no expert in the Quaran.  Are you?  Have you read it to completion?

"Two, the statement "only is Islam is it okay to kill people under certain circumstances" is inheritantly false. Many Christians here both support capital punishment and carpet-bombing Iraq.
"

I also disagree. Those are government actions, not a literal christian one, thus your statement is invalid.

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I think you are grasping at straws here.  Our government is made up of Christian people, some of which routinely invoke the Bible (Ashcroft for instance). 

Nevertheless, whether an action is perfomed by the government or not, many Christians openly support such things as pre-emptive strikes and capital punishment.  They take a very active role in placing their representatives in power.  They indeed think that it is okay to kill others depending on the circumstances.

Perhaps I shall start a thread asking Christians if it is okay to kill others under special circumstances?  What do you think the replies would be?

Islam says if you take over my land, I can kill you.

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And the Bible says that Isrealites can take over someone elses land and kill them.  (shrug)

How did the Christians who supposedly founded this land treat the original occupants?  Which holy text do you think they used to justify their actions?

Besides, killing someone that is trying to repress you (ie. take over your land) doesn't exactly sound like evil incarniate to me - rather it sounds like self-defense.

What if our land were invaded?  You don't think a Christian would pick up a weapon and fight?

Seems pretty violent to me. Also why is it you always hear of incidients like this?

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Actually, incidents like this have been going on for a very long time.  It only became newsworthy to the majority of Americans once their felt their own lives were threatened.

Again, you'll hear lots of violence purpetrated by Christians if you wish to pay attention.  Fighting in Ireland, drowning babies, abortion bombing, victimizing Arab-Americans (in my city alone a Mosque and a Arab-owned carpet store were set afire), pedophile preists, etc., etc., etc...

Don't get me wrong - I don't think generalize the whole of Christianity based on these actions, but neither do I judge the whole of Islam because of some hateful Muslims.

 I don't like something so I can go on a killing spree?

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I don't see anyone on this thread justifying such behavior.  I am just as appalled by the 100+ deaths as you are but I don't feel the need to generalize or demonize Islam because of it.

I'm only pointing out the irony that comes from a Christian claiming other religions to be "violent".

I can answer part of that; I believe that killing can be an acceptable choice, although it's never a happy one. There is a distinction between murder and killing. I think war can be legitimate, and that capital punishment can be legitimate. (In practice, I have grave doubts about the reliability of our capital punishment system, and thus its legitimacy.)

"I am no expert in the Quaran. Are you? "

Yes, I have read it, but not really since to "truely" read it you have to read it in arabic. As far as literalist, there are certain passages that specifically say that if they take over your land, repress you (very broad term) you can kill them.

"I think you are grasping at straws here."

Not at all. As a policeman I should arrest people stealing money, but if it was from me I would probalby forgive them and find out why they are doing it. You must make a distinction. There is a big difference, just maybe one you don't want to see?

"And the Bible says that Isrealites can take over someone elses land and kill them."

Yup, because it was justified. I think you need to find out why this happened before you just jump in. There is also an express difference here in terms that Christ specificlly talked about this were as muhummad said killing was okay and actually did some.

"You don't think a Christian would pick up a weapon and fight?"

Invaded? No, you misunderstand. Muslims DECLARED certains lands theirs, and then went into them and killed people. Any declared land that is possessed by others can be killed. If we were invaded by people that set up a democratic system that let us have freedoms just like we have now? It happens all the time Star, its called an election

"Actually, incidents like this have been going on for a very long time."

Exactly, because Islam says its okay if you read the text.

"Again, you'll hear lots of violence purpetrated by Christians if you wish to pay attention. "

show me then, I'll check out a news link and tell you my opinion on it.

"I don't see anyone on this thread justifying such behavior. I am just as appalled by the 100+ deaths as you are but I don't feel the need to generalize or demonize Islam because of it."

I agree, as you should be, but you also defend it, just look at your posts. Muslims kill people and then we say its horrible and you say, well christians shouldn't say anything because they do it too? Its EXACTLY what Costic was talking about. I think its called a "red herring" you know, when you try and change the subject or redirect the thread away from the topic?

"Christian claiming other religions to be "violent"."

Sorry 1. red herring 2. not true at all

Wow, At the beginning of this message, when i read the first post I was about to scream at the utter ignorance of the person who posted it, though I am very happy at the replies that have come since that first post.

Tell me people, If you had lived in a country that had been attacked, bombed and oprressed as a direct result of america/the west for decades would you be angry at them? that they have killed you mother? your children? your best friend?

If you had lived in a country that had been invaded by another using weapons supplied by America/The west, would you be angry at that country and those that supplied it with the weapons?

If you lived in poverty, had no food to eat? had limited medical supplies due to sanctions placed on your country by America, through oil and globalisation?

I'm not sticking up for Muslims who are bombing the world, Muslims are one of the sweetest kindest races on earth, and I think they havetaken alot of pounding from the rest of the world for far to many years. They have a right to be angry, and yes they have a right to rally and stand up against it. THEY ARE DYING EVERY DAY! as a result of this war, the gulf war, sanctions and globalisation.

If this was you, I know you would too, you would want to fight for your freedom, you would want to fight for your family and your life...

Know the facts before it turns into a racist argument

Laume

"Muslims are one of the sweetest kindest races on earth"

They are not a race

Outspoken, this sums up exactly the point I (and others) are trying to make:

You:  Only in Islam is it okay to kill people under certain circumstances.
More You:  Islam says if you take over my land, I can kill you.
Me:  And the Bible says that Isrealites can take over someone elses land and kill them.
You:  Yup, because it was justified.

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This is where I realize that I'm talking to a brick wall.  Obviously, any discussion from this point on is just for the merit of lurkers.

Is this the formale you would have us follow?

Muslim violence == EVIL

Judeo-Christian violence == JUSTIFED

Muslims DECLARED certains lands theirs, and then went into them and killed people.

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Wow, that's a pretty horrible thing to do and I would never support such an action.  Would you?

The Isrealites DECLARED certain lands theirs, and then went into them and killed the people.  Later Christians DECLARED "Muslim land" theirs, and then went into them and attempted to kill all the people (the root of our problems today).  Later still, Christians DECLARED "new world" land to be theirs, and then went into them and killed the people.

My guess is you fully support Isrealites taking over another's land and killing their women and children because it is in your holy book.  Who are you then to lash out at another holy book that contains the same brand of violence?

Me:  "I don't see anyone on this thread justifying such behavior. I am just as appalled by the 100+ deaths as you are but I don't feel the need to generalize or demonize Islam because of it."

You:  I agree, as you should be, but you also defend it, just look at your posts. Muslims kill people and then we say its horrible and you say, well christians shouldn't say anything because they do it too?

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This is a purposeful mischaracterization of everything I've said on the subject.  You will not find one post from me defending this act.  Nor will you find one post where I lash out at Christians (or anyone for that matter) who speak ill of this riot without generalizing Islam.  All along my purpose has been to point out the foolisness that comes with branding Islam, as a whole, as a violent religion, especially when members of your religion cause (or have caused) so much grief to others.

For that last time, I do not support or defend this riot in any way, it is a lie to claim otherwise.  But those of you that choose to judge Islam as a whole from the comfort of western society as our people plan to mount an pre-emptive attack on another nation need to take the plank out of your eye.

BTW, in the interest of fairness - the latest write-up from CNN regarding these riots contains this:

In February 2000, Christians in the city of Kaduna marched to protest a Sharia proposal, and the ensuing riots left an estimated 200 people dead.

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Reading up on this a bit more on the BBC came up with this:

In February, the killings in Kaduna were followed by reprisal killings in the south-eastern city of Aba, where the native Ibo people, who are overwhelmingly Christian, attacked the Muslim minority.

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Do I think Islam is a violent religon?  No more than Christianity is.

Do I think it is fair to judge either religion by the actions of a violent minority?  No.

Yes, Starscream.

I think that this thread would have been more logically titled "Nigerians riot (again)"

Riots in Nigeria are not uncommon with hundreds of people killed and injured. And it's not always between Christians and Muslims--sometimes its political parties, women's groups, everyone vs. the military blowing stuff up, etc.

When I first started reading the BBC world news, it was frightening how many people and how often Nigeria would be in the news because, say 350 people were killed last night in an explosion at a military base. Which followed last week's unrest when women shut down the oil plants. (Just an example) It's a very unstable country--and the most populous in Africa.

--tibac

When I searched BBC for "Nigeria" and "riot", I received 117 hits. Just this year (excluding Miss World riots):

People vs. the police Jan 2002

Old regime vs. new regime July 2002

One political party vs. another May 2002

Yorubas vs. Hausas Feb 2002

Students riot over assassination Jan 2002

Thanks, wildernesse!

"Judeo-Christian violence == JUSTIFED"

I don't see a past history of pagent participants against Muslims, do you?

"The Isrealites DECLARED certain lands theirs, and then went into them and killed the people."

If you're refering to the bible the land was taken because of God giving it to them, previous to that the inhabbitants had attacked them unprovoked. I think you should read your bible more

"Later still, Christians DECLARED "new world" land to be theirs, and then went into them and killed the people."

Lovely strawman you have there star, if you want to burn it, but that doesn't make it true at all. Governments and monarchies did this, I didn't see Christ doing anything like that sorry

"You will not find one post from me defending this act."

You mean your red herring attacks?

"But those of you that choose to judge Islam as a whole from the comfort of western society as our people plan to mount an pre-emptive attack on another nation need to take the plank out of your eye."

okay, if you want to cling to subjective truth you do so, but remember, opinions count in that, thus you can't say I'm wrong

Oh, as for the plank, I don't riot and kill people because something goes on I don't like, do you? Thus I do have a "right" according to you to judge them on their actions. When I riot and kill people then according to you Star I give that up. Until then I will say its wrong and heavily critize them for it.

Originally posted by Outspoken
Oh, as for the plank, I don't riot and kill people because something goes on I don't like, do you? Thus I do have a "right" according to you to judge them on their actions.

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*sigh*

Of course you have a right to condemn these people and their actions (as do I).  Please try to understand the difference between judging these rioters and judging Islam as a whole.

Please, please, please try to understand these words:

"For that last time, I do not support or defend this riot in any way, it is a lie to claim otherwise.  But those of you that choose to judge Islam as a whole from the comfort of western society as our people plan to mount an pre-emptive attack on another nation need to take the plank out of your eye."

"Do I think it is fair to judge either religion by the actions of a violent minority?  No."

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Can someone else please try to explain to Outspoken where I am coming from?  Either I am not explaining myself well or he has chosen not to listen - but there is certainly a break down in communication here.

When I riot and kill people then according to you Star I give that up. Until then I will say its wrong and heavily critize them for it.

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Again, you have chosen to unfairly characterize me.  If you want to "critize" this riot then you'll find that I'll fully support your views.

Perhaps we can better bring this discussion to a close by this questions:

Do you think you (or others) are justified to judge Islam as a whole based on the actions of the minority of it's participants?

If 'no', then why are we arguing?

If 'yes', then take the plank out of your eye, for Christians have caused this world just as much grief.

(edited to add:  my use of the word "hypocrite" was meant to be used in the context of scripture - this has been edited out by a Mod anyhow but I wanted to make it clear to those who may of read my original words)

"Please try to understand the difference between judging these rioters and judging Islam as a whole. "

Hmm, well you do the same? You say christians can't talk based on the past of christanity then yell at me when I do the same for Islam? The big difference is that I say its wrong to murder people for this kind of thing, Islam doesn't (in a literal reading).

"there is certainly a break down in communication here. "

Yup, you're saying one thing here and something else before. If you're changing postions that's great, but I'll remember it

"Do you think you (or others) are justified to judge Islam as a whole based on the actions of the minority of it's participants?
"

No, not on this single event, on the starting of Islam, many other events and the literal reading of the book? Yup

"If 'no', then why are we arguing? "

Because you're blaming Islams violent past on christanity and not their own actions based on their religion.. Let me quote you..

"Well, historically, the Pope and his Bishops have slaughtered far more than 50 people and Islamic history may have been quite different had the Muslims not been victims of the crusades."

Outspoken, I don't think you are being very honest with my intentions here, nor the message behind my words: 

Me:  "Please try to understand the difference between judging these rioters and judging Islam as a whole. "

You:  Hmm, well you do the same?

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I certainly do not.  This is what I think:

Condemning Islam rioters:  good.

Judging Islam as a whole:  bad.

Condeming Christian rioters:  good.

Judging Christianity as a whole:  bad.

Do you understand the difference?

You:  You say christians can't talk based on the past of christanity then yell at me when I do the same for Islam?

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Again, I have only spoken out against those (like you) that continue to generalize all of Islam. 

Do you not dislike it when people judge the whole of Christianity based on the actions of past and present (yes, violence is still performed in the name of your God) Christians?  Of course you don't - so why do you do it to others?

Remember the golden rule?

You:  The big difference is that I say its wrong to murder people for this kind of thing, Islam doesn't (in a literal reading).

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Literal reading?  What is the literal reading of the following passages?

Quaran:  Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. Allah does not love the aggressors.

New Testament:  Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

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So?  What is the literal reading here?  Which religion seems more violent here?  Jesus doesn't exactly sound very meek and mild, does he?

Let's compare some more:

Hadeeth:  The Prophet Mohamad said to his army before going to a fight "Depart in the name of Allah, and by his help. And kill not any old man nor young boy nor child, nor woman, But be good doers for Allah loves those who do good.

Old Testament:  Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,  but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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Yikes!  At least Allah condemns killing women and children.  For some reason the god-head of what you claim to be the non-violent religion has no such qualms.  Kill the children, kill the women, hey, even keep some of the virgins for yourself! 

What do you think those virgins girls were kept for anyway?  A tea party?

See how easy it is to paint another religion as violent?  No doubt you strongly object to my usage of the Bible above - but why is it okay for you to do the same for Islam?

Me:  "there is certainly a break down in communication here. "

You:  Yup, you're saying one thing here and something else before. If you're changing postions that's great, but I'll remember it

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My message has always been that it is hypocritical for a Christian to judge another religion as a whole.

Me:  "Do you think you (or others) are justified to judge Islam as a whole based on the actions of the minority of it's participants? "

You:  No, not on this single event, on the starting of Islam, many other events and the literal reading of the book? Yup

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How peacfully did Christianity spread throughout Europe?  What was Christianity's impact on the Native Americans?  The aborigines of Australia?  What about the Christians in Nigeria who themselves cause riots?

And just how does your Bible stand up to a literal reading?  Witch burnings, infidel killing, slavery, stoning adulters, stoning children, stoning rape victims, stoning homosexuals, slaughter of the Midianites, etc., etc., etc...  Just how much death and destruction is seemingly justified by a literal reading of the Bible?

I do not understand how you can keep a straight face when you label Islam this way.

Is there not any part of popular Christian belief that warns you against judging others?  Why do you chose not to follow it?  If it upsets you when people generalize Christianity then why do you do it to others?

You know what?  If I were speaking to a Muslim who found it fair to paint all Christians with the same brush I'd actually stick up for you guys.  Man, and I'm the one who is the 'evil atheist'.

The rhetoric I've read here (and other places) is exactly what the terrorists want.  They want a big religious war, they want you to hate Islam so much so that they can justify further murders. 

Why are you playing into the hands of terrorists?  Why are you allowing them to draw a line between these two world religions that have both have such potential?

Bigotry is always the easy way out.  It is so easy to generalize - but much more difficult to see past the stereotypes.  I invite you to attain the courage to do better - perhaps that way our children's children will have a future.

Originally posted by Susan
Any Muslim will say that "Al Jihad" is a pillar of the Islamic faith.

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Uh, way wrong.

There are only five pillars of the Islamic faith:

1. zakat - almsgiving;
2. salat - prayer, 5 times a day;
3. hajj - the journey to Mecca, once in the life of every muslim;
4. shahada - the testimony, 'there is no god but God....";
5. sawm - fasting during Ramadan, from sunrise to sunset

The thing is, a minority of Muslims interpret it as a spiritual battle against one's self.

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Also wrong, for two reasons. 

1. The majority of Muslims do not accept that jihad is some kind of open warfare;
2. The "personal struggle" definition isn't what they interpret as jihad in the first place.  Jihad is striving to do the will of God, which can take many forms, including (but not limited to) personal struggle.

However too many Muslims see it for what it orignally was and still is in much of Islam: a call to literal war against anyone who disagrees.

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Wrong again, for several reasons:

1. this is not what most Muslims see jihad to be; and
2. from a historical perspective, that is not what jihad was anyhow;
3. historically, jihad was a defensive warfare with explicit rules of who was, and was not, a legal victim, when such warfare was justified (i.e., under what conditions), what time of year, etc. etc. etc.

It is the underlying sins of pride and hatred that produce such reprehensible theology, which leads to often terroristic and violent action.

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Yes. That must be why so many muslims in the former Yugoslavia were killed at the hands of christians.

Just curious:  do you actually *know* anything about Islam, or are you just making this up as you go?  I ask because your entire string of posts reads like a bad cartoon or a Jack Chick tract - long on emotion, but empty of actual facts.

Thank you Sauran...Im glad you understand the many forms of Jihad and recognize the real historical one verses the one today. The historical one made much more sence Muhammed and his followers were beginning to be attacked very often. Jihad = Self defence in the name Of Allah, to put it another way. But these deranged people are using Jihad as some evil form of attacking what they dont like. Not that Jihad was fully right though.

God bless

a4c

If anybody is going to quote scripture, then please don't take one verse, and only one verse, and not include the entire context of the meaning.  If anybody here wants to disprove God, or show Him to be merciless, then I suggest that you read the chapter before, during and after, in what it is that you want to say.

If a poster wants to quote that God intends to;

Now kill all the boys. And kill;every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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Give me the chapter and verse. Then read, research and understand exactly what this means, and I'll do the same.  Do not misinterpret what this means, or what the scriptures are trying to tell us. 

If for one minute, that anyone can say that the extreme faction of Islam is compared to the God of Israel, and His Holy righteousness, then I also suggest that that person is in very serious trouble.  Don't compare the two ~ they're like night and day.

Originally posted by blindfaith
If anybody is going to quote scripture, then please don't take one verse, and only one verse, and not include the entire context of the meaning. 

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Please understand that it was only a demonstration of how easy it is to paint a religion as violent.

I don't mind what you've asked above, but why can others get away with it when they label Islam as a violent religion?  If one is to say that the Quran openly condones murder then shouldn't they have to back that claim up as well?  Shouldn't we require of them to quote Islam scripture, then "read, research and understand exactly what this means"?

I just think that our threads here that discuss Islam contain a double standard - for instance we can use a "literal reading" to bash Islam but when it comes to the Bible we must put everything into the proper context.  It simply isn't fair. 

Please keep in mind that I am not accusing you of this, blindfaith, but there are others here that I feel need to more careful with their accusations.

If for one minute, that anyone can say that the extreme faction of Islam is compared to the God of Israel, and His Holy righteousness, then I also suggest that that person is in very serious trouble.  Don't compare the two ~ they're like night and day.

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I imagine that by "extreme faction of Islam" that you are speaking of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists?  I think it is fairly clear that the terrorists and the rest of Islam serve different gods, much like the "extreme faction of Christians" and the rest of Christianity.

for instance we can use a "literal reading" to bash Islam but when it comes to the Bible we must put everything into the proper context.

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Well, I suppose that's what we should do since this is a Christian board.  If this were a Muslim board, things could be different.  A Christian worth their salt will read the entire passage and put it into context to get the full meaning and answers.

I imagine that by "extreme faction of Islam" that you are speaking of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists?

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Yes.  Not the average Muslim who peacefully practices his/her religion.  Nobody here is saying all Muslims are violent.

 

the terrorists and the rest of Islam serve different gods, much like the "extreme faction of Christians" and the rest of Christianity.

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Nope.  Whether a Christian is a holy roller or the most conservative Catholic or Protestant, we serve one God, and will meeting one day in the same place.  I also haven't heard of a Baptist, Methodist, Protestant, Catholic, or Lutheran (just to name a few) group rioting, causing havoc or murdering people because our God was blasphemed.  **shrug**  Very different agendas.