Creationism VS Public schools

mpok1519

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taxes go to public schools.

public schools should teach science.

creationism isnt scientific.

ID might have more science than creationism behind it, but, the intellegent designer isnt observable in science, thus, if you cannot base teachings and pinciples on unobservable things.

ID has reasoned that an intellegent designer exists, but it does not base this reason on any empirical observation, and thus, cannot be taught as a science.

If you wanna waste your OWN money and your own time on learning about ID, sure, go ahead, but not in publically fiananced schools where I want my tax dollar to teach something that will actually help in the area of academia.
 
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Aceofspades77

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Horse evolution

Actually, I want to know what you make of it when a new species is observed to evolve. No old rocks, an entirely new environment, and an entirely new species. The new environment changes the selection pressure, mutations are always happening, and genetic drift is also always happening.
Culex pipiens in London Underground tunnels: differentiation between surface and subterranean populations.
There's a species of mosquito (Culex pippens) that is only found in the London Underground. It is extremely close (genetically) to molestus aboveground, but can't interbreed. That's the definition of a new species. It's evolution has been recorded. By the way, that paper is from a peer-reviewed journal and is available online for free. There is no reason why you can't read it.

Thx, for the response. :) How are these not all fully formed horses perhaps with a few different species?
 
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Split Rock

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What sort of backward thinking do you have.That's like saying the religious thought of Islam has contributed nothing to science. Of course it has not! Evolution just like creationism is a way to look at the same science.
No, it is not. Creationism is based on a religious belief, and evolution is a scientific theory.



It's a thought process, a religion and seen by some(myself) as more of a cult way of thinking of distorting the facts to fit the "evolution" agenda.
What "evolution agenda" are you referring to? Is it the same as the E.A.C. (THe Evil Atheist Conspiracy)?

Let me straighten you out on WHAT evolution is. Please read carefully. Evolution is a scientific theory that explains the diversity and distribution of life on earth. That is ALL it is.
This is what Evolution is:
1. Change in gene frequencies in a population over time.
2. Descent with modification.

I know of no one who posts in this forum that accepts evolution as an excuse for "social darwinism" or any other philosophy.


Science is science even outside of the "label's" we give science including, creation science, evolutionary science, ect. I could even emphasis my point by saying something crazy like cartoon network science. One of my points is that both scientists, those that believe in evolution and those that believe in a literal creation are still reputable scientists.
Many people who call themselves "creationists" do good research and are reputatble scientists. The point we are making is that NONE of them use "scientific creationism" to do their research. It is therefore useless in terms of science. On the other hand, scientists who do research in evolutionary biology DO make use of the theory of evolution in their research. If you do not believe me, go to PubMed and do a search for research papers using the keyword "evolution" and see how many hits you get. Now... do you see the difference?


Science is science and often times the facts are scewed and false statements are given to fit ones own personal bias and hidden agenda.
We certainly see that with "creation scientists" quite often. Here is another difference for you to think about. When a real scientist gets caught making skewed and false statements in his research publications, he is punished and ostrasized by his university and his peers. Often, his career is ruined. On the other hand, if a "creation scientist" publishes skewed and false statements about "evolutionists" or "darwinists," he is praised by his creationist peers and cited by them. See the difference?



I dare one person give me any animal that exists today and we can debate how it has evolved or not from it's distant past to now with clear examples of it's entire evolutionary process.
The modern horse and modern whales certainly fit this picture. Though I am not clear what you mean by its "entire" evolutionary process. I suspect you want to see every single intermediate species from the earliest ungulate ancestor to the modern Humpback whale. Otherwise you will pretend you are not "satisfied" with the evidence.



If someone can give me no shadow of a doubt clear evidence of this animals evolution through out the ages of time I will give them all major props.
Science doesn't deal in absolutes or providing proof beyond a "shadow of a doubt." This is what religious beliefs like creationism provide (yet another example of how evolution is NOT a religion). We provide proof beyond a "reasonable doubt." Much like the judicial system.



I contend that with common reasoning this animals evolution can easily be disputed.
What "common reasoning" is that. How about "I don't see how, therefore it is wrong?" That is an example of "common reasoning." How about lsitening to what the experts in their field say about the evidence they examine themselves, rather than asking for "common reasoning" based on heresay, beliefs, and "gut" feelings.
 
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MoonLancer

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Thx, for the response. :) How are these not all fully formed horses perhaps with a few different species?

They are all fully formed. the beauty of evolution is that a creature can go from a cell to a human and remain fully formed through every iteration because its not a direct path. Every generation is a transitional species.

I have always wondered about the creationist fully formed argument. Why do creationists think that a species that evolves isn't fully formed. If it was not fully formed it would not survive to pass on its dna.

you might be thinking evolution is much like a single cell changing into a person much the way a baby forms in a womb. This is NOT like evolution.

a change is a change, no matter how small

ps I still wonder how you claim to have legitimate outlook on science when you don't know what a theory is. You are avoiding that simple fact.
 
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Split Rock

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Thx, for the response. :) How are these not all fully formed horses perhaps with a few different species?

Please tell us what you expect a transitional species should look like? How would it not be "fully formed?"
 
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Tomk80

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So what were the first organisms then Tom.
This has already been answered. We don't know. It would likely have been a cell without a nucleus, but even in todays classification we have two realms of those organisms, archeaes and prokaryotes. It might not have fit in either of those categories.

Give me insight instead of ussless drivel as you usually do, always digressing.
Look AoS77, if you make mistakes, like the one I commented on here, I will correct you. That you don't like only reflects on your attitude, not on anybody elses.

Next to that, you are the one who is constantly digressing. I just follow your lead. True, I shouldn't, but there it is.

Now, any chance I can get an apology, or at least an explanation, for the lies you posted about me earlier instead of you ignoring what I wrote?
 
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Tomk80

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Thx, for the response. :) How are these not all fully formed horses perhaps with a few different species?
Horses do not have five toes. Horses do not have a dental set fit for eating leaves and fruit. Horses do not have an arch-shaped back. All these are characteristics that hyracotherium does have and Horses do not have.

And what do you mean with "fully formed"? Each and every creature that has ever lived was "fully formed". Hyracotherium was just as much "fully formed" hyracotherium as currently living horses are "fully formed" horses.
 
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mpok1519

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Eohipus is the oldest horse ancestor we know.

It was no larger than a big dog, however.

But this is not a fully formed horse; it is a horse ancestor, the eohipus.

but, at the time of its existence, yes, it was a fully formed 'horse', bc thats as close as it got to a horse...back then....

I don't know why anyone's arguing about a 'fully formed horse'.

What does that have in any slightest significant relavence to the fact of evolution?
 
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Aceofspades77

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They are all fully formed. the beauty of evolution is that a creature can go from a cell to a human and remain fully formed through every iteration because its not a direct path. Every generation is a transitional species.

I have always wondered about the creationist fully formed argument. Why do creationists think that a species that evolves isn't fully formed. If it was not fully formed it would not survive to pass on its dna.

you might be thinking evolution is much like a single cell changing into a person much the way a baby forms in a womb. This is NOT like evolution.

a change is a change, no matter how small

ps I still wonder how you claim to have legitimate outlook on science when you don't know what a theory is. You are avoiding that simple fact.

You are trying to bait me on what a theory is? I'm answering those worthy of meaningfull discussions. Chill...
 
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Pete Harcoff

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mpok1519

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yes; creationism has no real application, or use.

knowing the story of creationism is pretty much the only thing you can do with it; re-tell it in all of its two hundred words or so glory.

Theres no reason it should even be considered a real thing; its a myth with symbology, thats it.

the only application you can gain from the story of creationism is to identify the succesfful/unsuccessful use of metaphors and symbols.
 
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flatworm

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You are trying to bait me on what a theory is? I'm answering those worthy of meaningfull discussions. Chill...

Is this worthy of meaningful discussion?

"Do you consider an animal the size of a dog with five distinct digits on each foot to be a 'fully formed horse'?"
 
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Split Rock

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You are trying to bait me on what a theory is? I'm answering those worthy of meaningfull discussions. Chill...

He (like the rest of us) would like you to explain what you mean by "fully formed" in the context of transitional species. Or are you just parroting what you have read from "Creation Ministry" websites like AIG and ICR, without understanding what they are saying? In that case, don't worry if you do not understand them... they really have no intention of making any sense anyway.
 
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Dogbean

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You continue to ignore the fact that evolutionary biology has real world application. Creationism doesn't.

yes; creationism has no real application, or use.

knowing the story of creationism is pretty much the only thing you can do with it; re-tell it in all of its two hundred words or so glory.

Theres no reason it should even be considered a real thing; its a myth with symbology, thats it.

the only application you can gain from the story of creationism is to identify the succesfful/unsuccessful use of metaphors and symbols.
There is a real world application to creation.....it would save lots of money on false evolutionary research that leads to nothing but dead ends and holes that make the theory of evolution look like a block of swiss cheese :)

<<staff edit>>
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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Apreciate the response legacy. :) At the very top there we start with the prokaryote. It's funny to mention that I wanted to talk about the prokarote many posts back. So the starting point of evolutionary theory is that all life we have to day starts with the prokarote? Is this a good starting point?

OK, I am happy to talk about prokaryotes, but I say now I am no expert.

Do you admit that all the evidence is in favour of evolution and not creationism!!!
 
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