Are Messianic Gentiles considered jews here, now?
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
Coming from a Messianic gentile, I'd say absolutely not.
However, I do feel there is a lot of confusion where people think only a Jew can be a Messianic Jew. Could be because of the title!
However, I do feel there is a lot of confusion where people think only a Jew can be a Messianic Jew. Could be because of the title!
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Kristen, this forum -- as I recall, and I have been here, then out and away, then back... for a long time -- has always maintained that only Jews may be Messianic Jews. Messianic Gentiles are no more or less in Christ, but simply called to stand side by side with messianic Jews, not *as* Jews, but as Messianics -- period. One in faith, etc.
I was told this morning that for the purposes of this forum, gentiles need not convert in order to be considered jews and I want to know if the stance of this forum has officially changed, or if somehow this fact has always been in place and I was too dull to catch it. Not only that, I want to know how on earth anyone here can square this with any messianic teaching, for as far as I know this is in no way normative messianic teaching at all.
I was told this morning that for the purposes of this forum, gentiles need not convert in order to be considered jews and I want to know if the stance of this forum has officially changed, or if somehow this fact has always been in place and I was too dull to catch it. Not only that, I want to know how on earth anyone here can square this with any messianic teaching, for as far as I know this is in no way normative messianic teaching at all.
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I'd say it is more that there is a lot of confusions (being allowed to remain, I might add) lately where people think that a Messianic Gentile is ever considered a Messianic Jew. There's a reason that. as I understand it, the leadership of every major, definining branch of Messianic Judaism are all Jews by blood. And there is a reason for the terms Messianic Gentile and Messianic Jew, which can be encompassed easily by the term Messianic. Only a Jew is a Jew, Kristen, unless this forum has up and decided otherwise.
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
We've discussed this here before. My perspective is that the MJ movement is two fold. We have Jews who are coming to believe in Yeshua as the Messiah and then we have gentiles who are coming back to Jewish roots, finding Yeshua in a more Jewish light. So no, gentiles are not trying to be Jewish (most).
Why this division? I think we all agree that to become JEWS, gentiles would certainly need to convert, but a Jew is one who does not believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah. A Messianic Jew does. There's a big difference!
I wish the terminology were different, I really do! But it is what it is. This was my only concern when we divided into the new subforum for gentiles. It makes our diversity even more apparent.
Why this division? I think we all agree that to become JEWS, gentiles would certainly need to convert, but a Jew is one who does not believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah. A Messianic Jew does. There's a big difference!
I wish the terminology were different, I really do! But it is what it is. This was my only concern when we divided into the new subforum for gentiles. It makes our diversity even more apparent.
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
I agree! Is this coming from something I'm not aware of or are we really talking about semantics?
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Kristen said:
no no -- I understand what you are saying and I understand the above. I don't personally have an issue there, and it was not my point. My point is that as long as I can recall, only *Jews* who come to faith in Jesus have been considered Messianic *JEWS* here. Apparently, according to what I was told this morning, now "for the purposes of this forum" Messianic Gentiles may be considered Messianic JEWS. No conversion, just "hey, by faith I am a Jew, right, so I guess I am a Messianic Jew, not a Messianic Gentile. Okay then."
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ChazakEmunah
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Talmidah
היום כולם יודעים - הרב כהנא צדק
For all the years I've been here, its been understood and nobody took issue with it being expressed, that gentiles are not Jews. There were Messianic Gentiles and Messianic Jews together comprising generic "Messianics" or "Messianic Believers". I'm not sure what is going on right now.
I double-checked the Messianic forum Forum Specific Guidelines and don't see anything about Gentiles turning into Jews when the post in this forum. maybe you guys can check and see if I'm just missing it.
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
I see where you are coming from now. But if you put it back into the real world, what choice do gentiles have? There are only congregations for Messianic JEWS. There is nothing for the gentiles. I think we are all under the same umbrella, misnamed though it may be.
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that's not true at all, Kristen. What do you mean, there are only congregations for Messianic Jews? The vast majority of those in the Messianic movement are Gentile by birth and while some do make distinctions for leadership, some congregations, and several off-shoot types, haven't so much as one Jew or more than even a family of Jews in their fold, as compared to the Gentiles who are coming to a Judaic faith.As far as the real world -- I would expect that the Gentiles who join themselves to Messianic Judaism would be real in and of themselves, enough to realize that in the real world *only a Jew IS a Jew* period... nothing nefarious about it. And while being under the same umbrella of faith makes one a Messianic, being under that umbrella of faith does NOT make a jew a gentile and vice-versa. No more than being under the umbrella as a Christian together with someone in Japan would make an American Japanese for no reason but by association and belief.
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Talmidah
היום כולם יודעים - הרב כהנא צדק
I lived as a Messianic in the real world and most of the people I knew, in various congregations, were gentiles. I didn't notice many of them complaining about being called gentiles because that's simply what they were. And Jew & Gentile came together to worship in the manner they desired. I'm having so much trouble understanding why it would be wrong to say that a gentile is a gentile. And why its apparently not considered wrong to be dishonest and say that a gentile is actually a Jew.
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HaReb
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What we really need, to help folk if we keep this system, is a simple table that sets out at the top the various descriptions: Messianic Gentile and Messianic Jew etc. Below that we need a list of the fora that those two groups can use for debate or to ask questions etc. There is no need, in my opinion, for Orthodox Messianic Jews because we do not have the same for Orthodox Messianic Christians, and so on. We do not make distinctions between Christians who eat only fish on a Friday, and those who do not, neither do we distinguish between evangelicals and liberals on this forum, so why separate out Jews?
The trouble is we are being far to PC about this. What we need is a discussion forum where the only requirement is that you are a Messianic Believer - either Jew or Gentile, it matters not. It is Y'shua that is important, not us! No Messianic Jew can ever save the world, nor any Messianic Gentile. What we are debating is the Word and how best to understand it so that we can live it out, however falteringly that may seem to some. Some will be kosher, some frum, some will be neither and some will be searching - that is the family Y'shua set up. Let's get over it and get on with it instead of all these man-made rules that are causing untold confusion, forcing divisions where they ought not to be and causing hurt in the Kingdom.
The trouble is we are being far to PC about this. What we need is a discussion forum where the only requirement is that you are a Messianic Believer - either Jew or Gentile, it matters not. It is Y'shua that is important, not us! No Messianic Jew can ever save the world, nor any Messianic Gentile. What we are debating is the Word and how best to understand it so that we can live it out, however falteringly that may seem to some. Some will be kosher, some frum, some will be neither and some will be searching - that is the family Y'shua set up. Let's get over it and get on with it instead of all these man-made rules that are causing untold confusion, forcing divisions where they ought not to be and causing hurt in the Kingdom.
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
I hope you all realize I am agreeing that a Jew is a Jew and a gentile is not. And I suppose the "real world" is vastly different for each of us. There's not a large population of Jews of Messianics in my area of the world, but around here if you find a Messianic congregation, you can bet there are few gentiles there and I have been told that gentiles feel unwelcome.
Gotta say I'm feeling unwelcome at the moment.
Gotta say I'm feeling unwelcome at the moment.
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I don't know if I am allowed to say much. It didn't sound like a personal "weighing in" opinion sort of comment. *shrug*
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ChavaK
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Hmm.....well until such time as the forum rules are officially
changed, I guess we can assume that it is just someone's
personal opinion.
I do believe the forum rules do no allow anyone to challenge
the claim of another that they are a Jew. But that doesn't
turn Gentiles into Jews...
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