Trying to understand predestination

Originally posted by Behe's Boy
Hello -


My first question -
What is the point of witnessing? If we are all pre ordained to either be saved or unsaved - why witness? Or perhaps a more appropriate question would be - do you witness?

I have other questions - but I'll start with just this one for now.

Thanks,
BB

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Because God commanded us to do it.  I think we are told to witness so that God can bless us.  See by witnessing we can partner with God in saving His elect.  Not that we really help Him but that we get to see God working and we get to be used by God as a mouthpiece for His love.  It is a great feeling and blessing to witness to someone and then have them turn their lives over to Him.  Sure God could skip this whoel preaching and witnessing part but then we would not get to be blessed. 

Originally posted by Behe's Boy
My first question -
What is the point of witnessing?

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Witnessing comes in so many other forms than what most people consider it to be.  It is not just telling someone what the Bible says.  It is helping people learn about, and understand, that which has been done for them by showing that the Gospel is the power of God to salvation (Rom 1:16).  The most effective method for showing the power of God's grace is to show what it has done to change the person who is extending that grace to another.  Just for the record, I don't mean, "I used to be an addict and now, because of God's grace, I am not."  While that is definitely a result of God's grace it doesn't nearly have to be so visibly dramatic.  It could be something as simple as not repaying evil for evil.  For example, if someone is rude to you, not being rude back.  The Bible says that is like "heaping coals of fire" on someone's head because it brings about conviction of one's actions (Rom 12:20).

If we are all pre ordained to either be saved or unsaved - why witness?

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Witnessing is one of the methods through which God ordained that His Word would be brought to the people.  That was the main function of the Apostles, to bring God's Word to the masses.  Paul, probably the most influential Apostle, was mainly sent to minister to the Gentiles.  It is through this witnessing that God's Word, His specific revelation is brought to people so they will know Him and be brought to a knowledge of their sinfulness, and thus, the grace that God has extended to save them from the penalty of their rebellion.

Or perhaps a more appropriate question would be - do you witness?

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All people, by their actions, are witnesses of what they put their faith in.  So, yes, I witness.  Sometimes I'm a good representative of God's grace, other times, not so much. 

God bless

Originally posted by Behe's Boy
I don't understand this - why do the elect need saving?

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Even though we might be in the elect we have to remember where we came from.


Rom 3:10-18
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
(NAU)

That is where we came from and why the elect need to be saved.  It is because they can't save themselves. 

See the elect is the term used to show that God chose us to be saved.  So I was saying that He is going to save His elect. it is kind of redundant but I thought it was necessary ot say for clarity.  maybe it made things unclear. 

Originally posted by Behe's Boy
To reiterate - why is there a functional nethod even necessary to share the gosple if the elect are already saved? Is it simply so they can be brought to a knowledge that they are already saved - and nothing more.

Thanks
BB

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Not all the elect are "already saved," at least not in the real time regenerate sense.  They are saved in that they will be saved if they are not.  However, There are elect that aren't even born physically yet, much less spiritually.  The Gospel is the power of salvation for all those that will believe, i.e., the elect.

God bless

Predestination means God knew in advance what everyone would do.

Predetermination means that God caused everyone to do what they would do.

Clearly, the idea of predetermination allows no freewill, no sin, no point at all to salvation or Jesus' sacrifice.  On the other hand, predestination fits in nicely with God's omniscience.

There are no "elect" in the sense that God picked out who would be saved, He wants all to be saved, but some will refuse, and He knows which in advance.   If He causes everything to happen, then He makes some people simply to burn them in Hell.  Clearly not a loving God that we all worship.

P.S.

OSAS is false, unless you mean saved after you die and are judged.

Originally posted by s0uljah
Predestination means God knew in advance what everyone would do.

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Behe's Boy, I'm not sure where s0uljah got these definitions but the dictionary definition of predestination is to foreordain to an earthly or eternal lot or destiny by divine decree. 

The number two listed definition is, oddly enough, an archaic form of the word which means "predetermine," which means to "determine beforehand."

In a biblical sense, these concepts are difficult for us because we see our actions in real time as well as the consequences of those actions.  It is difficult to consider our "now" actions in light of God's eternal Plan.  Clearly God, being sovereign and omnipotent, not only "knows beforehand" what we will do but sovereignly guides His creation to accomplish His Will.  If all God was able to do is "know ahead of time" or "look down through time" then He would be just as subject to future events as we are.  This clearly does not give us the fullness of God's sovereign control of His own eternal, immutable Plan.

Clearly, the idea of predetermination allows no freewill, no sin, no point at all to salvation or Jesus' sacrifice.  On the other hand, predestination fits in nicely with God's omniscience.

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Behe's Boy, ifyou have any questions as to how these things are affected by God's forordained execution of His Plan please feel free to ask and I will do my best to explain.

If He causes everything to happen, then He makes some people simply to burn them in Hell.

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Again, Behe's Boy, if this type of question about God, which is very difficult for us to comprehend, provokes any questions for you feel free to ask and I will address it.

OSAS is false, unless you mean saved after you die and are judged.

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I am sincerely grateful to God that He has given you the wisdom and understanding and peace that only He can about this particular subject.  If you ever feel challanged in this area again, or just need some reassurance, please feel free to PM me.

God bless

Present your argument Reformationist.

P.S.

I didn't say God only "looks" down through time.  In fact, I think that he dictates things, but I also believe we choose our sins, not Him, which is what your position implies.

Originally posted by s0uljah
Present your argument Reformationist.

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I will not argue.  You and I have been through that too many times and I know that I have responded, more often than not, in an ungodly way.  I have decided that if I cannot respond in a godly way, I won't respond.

I didn't say God only "looks" down through time.

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I did not mean to imply that you did.  Please forgive me if I have.  I just know that to be a typical mainstream view of what God's predestination and foreknowledge are.

In fact, I think that he dictates things, but I also believe we choose our sins, not Him, which is what your position implies.

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As I said, I won't argue what we have been over numerous times.  I just pray that God enlightens you to this inescapable truth.

As always,

May God bless you.

I just pray that God enlightens you to this inescapable truth.

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Thank you for your prayers. I am only asking to understand your point, as I honestly have not been able to before.

Which truth are you refering to specifically that you want me to grasp?

Originally posted by s0uljah
Thank you for your prayers. I am only asking to understand your point, as I honestly have not been able to before.

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Well, I am willing to try.  However, please understand that if I feel that I cannot respond in a godly way I am going to refrain from answering. 

Which truth are you refering to specifically that you want me to grasp?

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Generally speaking, the Truth of the Gospel.  Specifically, the truth of Jesus' salvitic work that saves.  It frees us from alot of the legalistic viewpoints of mainstream Christianity.  It puts the focus on God rather than on our efforts to please Him.  In fact, it acknowleges that we are incapable of pleasing God by our actions because they are intrinsically motivated, at least partially, by sinfulness.

God bless

Originally posted by Behe's Boy
Well - when I said witnessing - I specifically meant sharing the good news of the gospel. I realize that actions often speak louder than words, etc. - however I was more interested in an actual verbage - man to man - sharing the gospel.



To reiterate - why is there a functional nethod even necessary to share the gosple if the elect are already saved? Is it simply so they can be brought to a knowledge that they are already saved - and nothing more.

Thanks
BB

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Perhaps witnessing is more of a benefit to the person doing the witnessing than the person receiving it.  I often learn and am reassured and become excited when I am researching scripture and learning so that I may witness or teach.  God uses us to bring the Word to all man, so that his elect may hear and be freed from sin through the quickening of the Spirit.

We are commanded to witness for our own good, to strengthen us and to show the love of God to even the unbeliever.

As far as you not believing predestination, how can you deny the scripture which is so filled with direct references to that very word?

Originally posted by Behe's Boy
Please share some....

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Ephesians 1:3-6,  Romans 8:29,  Ephesians 1:11

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Reformationist

Generally speaking, the Truth of the Gospel.  Specifically, the truth of Jesus' salvitic work that saves.  It frees us from alot of the legalistic viewpoints of mainstream Christianity.  It puts the focus on God rather than on our efforts to please Him.  In fact, it acknowleges that we are incapable of pleasing God by our actions because they are intrinsically motivated, at least partially, by sinfulness.

God bless

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I would agree with you on that...see, we are getting somewhere.

Now, the only thing I am saying is that we must freely respond to God's free gift of grace.  If we had no part in accepting it, we would be robots.

Agree?

Originally posted by s0uljah
I would agree with you on that...see, we are getting somewhere.

Now, the only thing I am saying is that we must freely respond to God's free gift of grace.  If we had no part in accepting it, we would be robots.

Agree?

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We are robots to sin or to God.  It is one or the other, I prefer to be a Godly robot.  We do all things according to His plan, but we have personal responsibility as well.  See Luke 22:22 "And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to the man by whom He was betrayed!"  This speaks of Judas' betrayal.  Judas had to betray Christ to fulfill scripture, but woe to him as he will be held accountable.

We do make choices, Souljah.  But all things a re pre-ordained by God, we cannot make a choice that would disrupt His plan, He is not reacting to us.

This was a difficult stance for me to understand or believe as I was a Baptist, believing that I chose God, for most of my life.  It is by the grace of God that He made me understand this doctrine.  But once understood, it is evident through-out scripture.

 

Originally posted by s0uljah
Now, the only thing I am saying is that we must freely respond to God's free gift of grace.  If we had no part in accepting it, we would be robots.

Agree?

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With all due respect s0uljah, you know where I stand on this.  We have had far too many discussions about this for me to believe that you don't.  My advice to you is to read the book of Romans and understand that all the first three chapters really talks about is the depravity of mankind and his inability to remedy that situation.

I hope that God will bless you with the wisdom and understanding that Romans enlightens us to.

God bless