The Elect

The rejection of this doctrine has alot to do with the P.C. view of fairness.  The world assumes that what is fair must be nice or good.  As christians we understand that what is fair is that we ALL go to hell.  God's elect receive His grace.  Thus we don't get what's fair.

Additionally, the world does not understand that there is no such thing as innocence.  Newborn or old man, you are but filthy rags to Him until justified by Christ's blood.  And as we are all dead in our sin, it is IMPOSSIBLE to choose Him unless He has quickened us.

Last, but certainly not least:  To accept the doctrine of predestination one has to admit that we are totally depraved.  Hopeless and helpless without God, totally dependant and unable to choose anything but sin.  These days that is just not a popular thing to admit.

I can't count how many families have left our church claiming that other congregants were to blame, yet they do not begin to attend the P.C.A. (reformed) church that is less than 10 minutes from us.  Instead they attend churches that appease the senses with P.C. messages of female pastors and Armenian theology.

Well, that's enough out of me for now.  Oh by the way, HI!  i'm the new guy!

Gabriel! Welcome to the board!!! I actually signed up here in 07/2000, in ULBMB---which then became King's Tavern, which joined here.

COME ON IN, THE WATER'S FINE!

The rejection of this doctrine has alot to do with the P.C. view of fairness.

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Actually, it has nothing to do with opinion and everthing to do with Scripture.

If I am wrong in my understanding of Scripture, please show me so. With Scripture.

We ARE depraved. Yet Jesus calls/helkuo/drags ALL to Him. Each person therefore has a choice---to receive Jesus, that HE does the work of salvation IN us, or to reject Him. And while we live, there exists the danger of our own hardening, deceivedness, apostasy---thus we are charged sternly to persevere, walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, endure, abide, keep ourselves in His love, not to be deceived, to grow strong in Him. Each of these warnings has value and meaning to me---as I believe they were intended to when they were written...

(Gabe---don't be afraid to post something, the question you ask is likely the one everyone else is also asking. "There are no stupid questions only stupid answers...")

First read my signature.  We are chosen by Him "according to the good pleasure of His own will".   Scripture is filled with references to God's choices.  See Romans 9:10-16  "And not only this, but when Rebecca had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls) it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."  As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."  What shall we say then?  Is there unrighteousness with God?  Certainly not!  For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy upon whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I have compassion."  So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

We are DEAD in our trespasses until we are quickened by the Holy Spirit, being made alive and repentant.  If Christ died for ALL men, He could have died in vain had no one accepted Him.  It is clear through-out the scripture that we accept because He chooses us and enables us to accept. 

A great author on this subject is R.C. Sproul.  Check him out.

In the mean time, I am going to receive the blessings of DINNER.

 

 

I am familiar with RC Sproul. And James White. And Calvin. What I am unfamiliar with, is finding their views in Scripture.

There are verses that plainly speak of "falling-from-salvation". All forms of "OSAS" espouse the premise of, "if they FALL then they were never saved to BEGIN with". The catch-22, escape-clause. There are many verses that warn us to "endure, to not fall, to persevere, to be diligent, to make certain of our calling and election, to not be moved away from Jesus (or not throw away our confidence which IS Jesus), on and on---in the PE view, each and every one of these verses are "empty warnings", hyperbole. Which is defined, as "exaggeration, not to be taken literally.

But Don requests that we not discuss these kinds of verses in this thread. That's fine---for we can refute the belief purely on its own merits. Or, rather, lack of merits.

GOD CHOSE SOME FOR SALVATION. And conversely, chose all the rest, for reprobation. Some cry, "It's not GOD'S fault, they are condemned by their OWN rebelliousness/sinfulness!" Yet, so also would have been the ELECT if not for God's forceful interference. (I am speaking in terms of PE.)

By forcefully interfering in those whom God has CHOSEN, and by ignoring the rest, it is undeniably God's FAULT for whoever finds him or herself in Gehenna.

Do you believe a person who goes to Hell, can place the blame and fault, on God?

Yet in theological discussions (arguments?) we must confine ourselves to Scripture. Where is the "smoking gun", the passage that says, "God installs salvation ON you, in SPITE of yourself"? I read, rather, that faith-unto-salvation, is from the individual. Each person makes a conscious choice to receive Christ, or to reject Him. THIS is the reason some enter Heaven, and some enter Hell.

Salvation is belief, abiding in Christ, fellowship with/in/through Jesus, born again. One-who-holds PE, purports that "born-again" is imposed by God, which causes belief. We of the "Responsible Grace" understanding, submit that belief causes "born-again".

"And this is the will of God, that whoever beholds the Son of God and believes in Him may have eternal life." Jn6:40 (WILL---"thelema", desire)

"But as many as received Him, to THEM He gave the right tobecome children of God, even to those who believe in His name." Jn1:12 (vs 13 says we are born not of the will of flesh but of God---this harmonizes perfectly with our voluntary belief causing us to receive salvation---remember, the WILL is salvation to all who BELIEVE. It is His will that we CHOOSE---either salvation, or death. This was the plan from the start. Please read Deut30:15-20)

Romans9 and Eph1 make very good cases for PE---that is, until the rest of Scripture is read. Then there are undeniable contradictions. Which make us return to the "predestination" texts, and come to a harmonious understanding. Eph1 says "we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world". Matt22 says "many are called but few are chosen---only those who RECEIVE the invitation and COME, and clothe themselves with righteousness become the chosen". 2Thess2:13 says "you were chosen from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through faith in the truth." Through our faith?

Salvation is entirely thorugh our own faith, our own belief, our own "receiving Christ" and abiding in Him. Many verses present Christ's sacrifice as universal---that is, available to all.

If all can be saved, then the elect, are elected by their own faith, by their RECIEVING JESUS. Not by Him, unilaterally.

Where is the "smoking gun" in support of PE? I can give you many verses, many "smoking guns" for RG...

We are DEAD in our trespasses.  How can a spiritually dead man choose anything?  You can type until you are blue in the fingers and you will never convince me that scripture backs you up.  It is not by our works but by God's choice. 

The root of the issue here is that the person who says I choose simply does not want to give it ALL up to God and admit that without Him you wouldn't make that choice.  You talk a good talk, but I don't see it.  Scripture is full of references to adoption (does the child choose the parent?), election, pre-destination (marked out beforehand), and the fact that we are called.

You seem to be saying that God is NOT sovereign.  Because according to your logic, if you don't choose Him, He cannot save you.

You can type until you are blue in the fingers and you will never convince me that scripture backs you up.

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Hi, Gabriel. It is not I who will ultimately convince you of anything---it is the Spirit. Yet, the Word says what It says.

It is not by our works but by God's choice.

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Actually, it is by neither of those---it is by our belief.

There are many, many verses that proclaim that salvation is offered to every last person who ever lives. PE proponents try to re-define the "ALL" to mean "only SOME of ALL TYPES". Take the Romans 5:17-18 passage---the first "pas anthropos" is correctly (and undeniably) understood as "ALL HUMANS". What then is the standard with which to interpret the SECOND "pas anthropos", to mean "only SOME"? How can the same words, spoken in the same breath have different meanings? With what standard do we assess the DIFFERENCE? Is that standard objective, or subjective?

"And let he that thirsts come, and let O THELOS whoever will take of the water of life freely." Rev22:17

O thelos, whoever wills. Not "whom-God-has-chosen".

Scripture is full of references to adoption, (does the child choose the parent?)
we are adopted when we believe---Jn1:12
election,
we are "elect" because of our belief
pre-destination (marked out beforehand),
What book and verse? Romans 8 says we-who-believe (foreknown) are predestined to be Christlike---predestination (but only predestination for CHRISTLIKENESS, not predestination for salvation!), founded on our belief
and the fact that we are called.
"For many are called, but few are chosen". Many are called but NOT chosen. Matt22

You seem to be saying that God is NOT sovereign. Because according to your logic, if you don't choose Him, He cannot save you.

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It is not so much that He cannot save you if you don't receive Him, but it is that He WILL not. I believe that is because if He did so, it would violate His nature of fairness and love. Both.

Can you conceive, that God, in His sovereignty, can make the choice to provide salvation for every man, desiring that every man woman & child be saved, He calls everyone to Himself (providing enough faith to overcome "total depravity"), but leaves the choice up to us? What Scriptural concept would that violate? To me it harmonizes all of Scripture perfectly.

"For this is the will of God---that ALL who behold the Son of God, and believe in Him, may have eternal life." Jn6:40

Take some of the words from your signature:
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

...and now read them together with Col1:23:
"Although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him (God) holy and blameless and beyond reproach---IF INDEED you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and NOT BE MOVED AWAY from the Hope of the gospel."

We know that the HOPE of the Gospel is JESUS---1Tim1:1.

What could Paul possibly mean in this passage? Do you think that Paul meant, "Well, you can't REALLY be moved away from Jesus, I'm just saying "IF" to play devil's advocate, but my words have no real meaning 'cause you can't REALLY be moved away from Jesus". Is that what was in Paul's heart? Or was Paul really saying, "You will be holy and blameless, IF you continue firm & steadfast in the faith & not be moved away from Jesus"? Did he say it the way he meant? Did he mean it the way he said?

Many places say, "he who endures to the end will be saved"; or, "by your endurance you will save your souls." I believe it is written that way because that is what is meant
---if it meant "he who is saved will endure to the end", it would read that other way.

"You have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you will receive the promise." Heb10:36

We have NEED of endurance? Not if we are elected---for then He would GIVE us endurance. Just as He gave (according to PE) saving-faith-in-the-first-place.

Which view is Scriptural?

How can a spiritually dead man choose anything?

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But the Bible tells us that we-who-were-dead, believed. And through our belief, He made us alive.

A spiritually dead man still has the ability to believe in many things...

"Faith comes from hearing. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness (he was unrighteous/dead right up until that point), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rom10:9,10,17

Do you see? We were dead, right up until the point we believed. We are saved by belief---we do not believe because we are saved. And that belief, that faith-unto-salvation, is not unilaterally given by God---it comes from us hearing the word of God. ("THAT" in Eph2:8b is "that salvation" {by His grace through our faith}, not "that faith"...)

All of God, none of us---yet all of His grace received through our faith/belief. Entirely our choice. Choice which presents itself every day for the rest of our lives.

"As you have received Christ, SO WALK IN HIM." Col2:6

We are saved, INSTANTLY---by Christ IN US. Salvation is not like the commonly-held-Catholic-view, that salvation is a process---it is not. We have eternal life (in our grasp), if we have Jesus (1Jn5:12-13); we take possession of eternal life, the promise, the gift, the reward, the inheritance---if we abide in faith and salvation and Christ until the end.

The "inheritance" is reserved in Heaven for us---if we endure to the end, if we are diligent about our calling AND election, and exhibit godly traits, if we forget-not-our-purification-from-former-sins, and stumble not (Greek: "Ptaio-stumble", become wretched), then the EISODOS-GATE OF HEAVEN WILL BE ABUNDANTLY PROVIDED to us. 1Pet1:4; 2Pet1:5-12---please look these up...

Election: (adoption)

If I adopt a child (We did, 26 years ago, she had no say in the matter, it was our decision alone) and this child decides that she is not going to listen to me (it happened, often through her teenage years), was she not my child on those days she refused to hear me? OF COURSE NOT! That is silly.

What did she lose on those rebellious days? She lost a few privileges and that's about it. Did she ever doubt that she had a room, a meal, a bed, loving parents? No, she knew that we loved her (still do) and would never forsake her, never.

This message of lost salvation is cruel in the least, it totally misunderstands the love God has for His children. IMHO, I feel terrible for God's children living under such fear. What if they have a dream, can they break fellowship (abiding) by thinking something they can't even remember? Should they get up in the morning and get "re-adopted"? This message of fear is not Biblical. Should my adopted daughter ask me daily if she is still my daughter? Foolishness........

We were created to be Fathers and Mothers, we know by the grace of God what it means to be a child, to have a parent that never forsakes us no matter what we do. The Bible uses the same verbiage, God knew how to speak to us, He designed us. I am my Heavenly Fathers son, I always will be.

Paul never told the people in Galatians that they were kicked out of the kingdom of God. He simply told them they were doing unnecessary stuff, they had been tricked into following a law they had never been given. It's that simple.

You see, when I told my daughter I was disappointed in her, that I was angry at her, she never thought for a second that I was kicking her out in the street, so the words I used were not misunderstood because the bond we shared was understood, it was un-breakable and did not need explaining.

Think about this.

Blessings

eldermike,

If I gave the impression that I thought salvation could be lost, I apologize.  I certainly never meant to do so.  Salvation is, without question, eternal.  My arguement was simply that it was not of our choice, it is of God's. 

Gabriel,

No, I understood you brother, I was addressing that generally to the discussion, not to you personally.

It seems that no matter the subject we always get turned onto the path of The Child making the decisons as to who Owns who. I just wanted to add something to consider that didn't have 100 scripture references.

Blessings to you

Hi, Gabe. All of that work, and your only response was, " " ??? There was an awful lot of Scripture that I quoted in that last post. Which part do you think I am mis-quoting, or mis-understanding?

Hi, Mike. We agree that salvation cannot be lost---we only disagree in the question, can salvation be rejected?

If I adopt a child (We did, 26 years ago, she had no say in the matter, it was our decision alone) and this child decides that she is not going to listen to me (it happened, often through her teenage years), was she still my child on those days she refused to hear me? OF COURSE! That is silly.
In the parable of "The Prodigal Son", Lk15, the argument has been presented, that "He never stopped being the father's SON, did he? NO!" But this parable is addressing a moral condition. And us being saved, is also a moral condition. It may be true that "we are always and forever, by creation, God's children"---but it is equally true, that only those who BELIEVE Jesus, who RECEIVE Him and walk in righteousness, only THESE are CHILDREN _OF_ God.

Remember, the father greeted the son with the words, "He was LOST, now is FOUND; he was DEAD, now is ALIVE AGAIN.

If your "adopted-child" allegory transfers to our spiritual state, then are you prepared to declare Paul wrong, when he said: "Those who PRACTICE these things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD??? On what basis was Paul wrong? On what basis was John wrong, when in 1Jn3 he says, "no one born of God practices sin; by this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest"? On what basis will you declare Jesus wrong, when in Matt7 He declares, "no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good. You will KNOW THEM by their FRUITS." ???

Are you willing to declare all of them, especially Jesus, WRONG? There is somehow an exception to what they all said? Please help me to understand how you believe that "one-who-has-gone-astray, and is back-slidden and practicing sin, but is nevertheless still saved".

How?

My reply was such because you appear to be one of those people who just simply like to argue.  I'm not one of those people.  If you don't see it the way I do, that's fine.  You seem to understand that Christ died for sinners and that the only way through the gates of heaven is through Him.  That's good enough for me.  I could quote you every place through-out scripture which backs up my point of view.  You wouldn't believe it and I have the feeling that even if you did, you wouldn't admit it.  You are obviously very intelligent, if God's word can't convince you I certainly cannot.

 

I am sort of hesitant to particpate in this thread...one reason because I won't be here for the next few days and another reason...because I am rather intimidated by the wealth of knowledge here.... I am uncertain of my ability to wrestle with the 'big boys'.

Anyway, here is my question. It is based on this Scripture in Matthew.

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

Jesus seems to be saying that they would have made another choice had they known what was in store for them. I don't understand how this jibes with the 'reprobate'--do they have the ability to repent?

Thanks,

Michelle

My reply was such because you appear to be one of those people who just simply like to argue.

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"I write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith..." Jd3

"Holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict." Titus1:9

"In all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speach which is beyond reproach in order that the oponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." Titus 2:7-8

It is my prayer that I have upheld all of these, and will continue. That I have shown only love to each of you...

Ben,

Spirtual deadness is not the same condition as we were when we were born dead. You tie yourself in a knot to skip from Lk14 to 1John3, it's enough to tie anyone in a knot.

salvation cannot be lost. But to gain it we must respond to a call on our hearts. Some say we can't resist, I don't buy that. We can reject Grace and at some point our hearts will be hardend and it's all over. But God can also knock us down and blind us (Paul) to get our attention. YOu can't put God in a box. Election is simply God doing His work of salvation, we have no part in election.

God has promised that once He begins a work in us He will complete it, the key is He will complete it.

Originally posted by Reformationist


Terms like "free will" and "elect" and "Christian" and "reprobate" get used so often here that oftentimes two people say the same things but mean different things.  In a nutshell, those whom God has not given the grace that saves, are unable to repent.  They can feel bad, yes.  But, that is not repenting.  The unregenerate, elect or not, have not been given the gift of repentance.  Only when God gives us a new nature that seeks to do His Will can we ever repent.

God bless,

Don

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The reason that the concepts seem difficult for me to understand is because I see a contradiction within the pages of Scripture when comparing them  to these teachings.    No I don't think God has to answer to us, but I think He is true to is own Word.   If God witholds grace from certain people making it impossible for them to repent then why did Jesus Himself say that those of the unrepentant cities would have  repented had they known their fate beforehand?  And why does it seem as though he is rebuking the unrepentant cities for not repenting?

Michelle

Is there a Calvinist in the house?

Can someone please explain to me why Jesus wasted his time warning the unrepentant cities to repent, when apparently they hadn't the ability to do so?

Michelle

Hm. Are we ever going to reach a conclusion?

The Bible appears to teach both predestination and free will.

Maybe they both exist, but we just can't comprehend how they can fit together.. "superlogical."

I mean, honestly, I can't comprehend God very well anyways