Addressing so-called Paganisms in the Catholic Church

Blackhawk · May 20, 2002

VOW,

okay but maybe i am not understanding what is being said. i read the question to mena should we spend all our money on decorations and stuff liek that. i would say no. That ther eare more important things to spend much of the money on. However i think that it is fine to use some of the money to be used for decorations.

i hope that clears that up.

blackhawk

VOW · May 20, 2002

To Blackhawk:

The original question, the reason behind the thread, had to deal with "pagan" customs in the Catholic Church. The elaborate decorations and use of gold in the altar serving pieces and the paintings and the statues, and all the ornate decorating has been disparaged as wasteful and from pagan influence.

My original post was quotations from the Old Testament, describing the fine embroidery, expensive fabric and furs, the very elaborate details not only on the priestly robes but in the Tent that the Israelites used for worship, after they left Egypt. The Israelites literally left on the run, with whatever they could carry, to escape the Pharaoh's soldiers. YET......God commanded them to fashion these elaborate priestly robes and the fancy tent.
These fineries were to HONOR GOD.

MANY complaints have been made about the wastefulness of the Catholic Church in their cathedrals and other houses of worship. Not only do we have the examples of the Old Testament to show that God's house is worthy of decoration, but there is also the story in the New Testament where the woman in Bethany meets Jesus as He is sitting down to a meal at someone's table, and she breaks open a very expensive, alabaster jar of rich ointment, and she applies to to Jesus. Judas complains of the waste, and says the ointment should have been sold and the money used to feed the poor. Jesus tells Judas that we will always have the poor with us, but the woman was honoring Him, preparing Him for his burial.

MUCH of the artwork and decor in Catholic Churches is actually DONATED; either the art itself, or an artist will use his or her gifts of the Spirit to create the art as a gift to God.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Blackhawk · May 20, 2002

Vow,

I think we are on the same side of this argument.

later,

blackhawk

VOW · May 20, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
VOW: I am not spiteful. I am a very positive person. You do not like to hear any other opinion then your own. To disagree with you is thought of as being spiteful. How can I apologize for your nature?

I gave Scriptural references to ornate houses of worship in the Jewish faith, and Jesus even condoned expense in honoring God, and you give a sharp retort, "Do you think Jesus would approve?"

Paul has a lovely chapter in Corinthians about Spiritual Gifts, and how the Holy Spirit grants the gifts to special people, and it is our obligation to give those gifts back to God for his use. Beautiful paintings, statues, stained glass windows, woodcarving, and architectural masterpieces can only give glory and honor to God. If GOD grants those Spiritual Gifts, how can those same gifts NOT please God?

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Caedmon · May 21, 2002

I think that it is quite acceptable for people to contribute their skills to the glory of God. Anything from lovely relief wood carvings to beautiful hymns played on a trumpet can be given to the glory of God. Although, I regard these more as talents given by God than gifts. I see gifts as more along the lines of preaching, teaching, evangelism, discernment, etc.

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. - I Corinthians 10:31, NASB

If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen. - I Peter 4:11, NASB

niwde · Oct 4, 2002

this is in a chinese dialect(cantonese):
i summerise this thread as "loh lei Kong"
i know u people will not understand,so if u have a chinese friend who speaks cantonese,he may tell u the meaning of it

I can eat 50 eggs · Oct 7, 2002

You people obviously need to read your jack chick tracts. He told me Everything the Catholic church does is based on paganism!
 

wildernesse · Oct 8, 2002

Is anything beautiful ever wasted? I'm not Catholic, but the beauty of a cathedral enriches my life--as do stained glass windows in other churches and the Christmas greening of my own church.

To the question of whether decoration is wasteful--couldn't this be applied to any church Catholic or no that builds a large, beautiful facility? Is using money for a more than adequate building wasteful? What's a better use of art than to glorify God?

--tibac

Blackhawk · Oct 8, 2002

Originally posted by wildernesse
Is anything beautiful ever wasted? I'm not Catholic, but the beauty of a cathedral enriches my life--as do stained glass windows in other churches and the Christmas greening of my own church.

To the question of whether decoration is wasteful--couldn't this be applied to any church Catholic or no that builds a large, beautiful facility? Is using money for a more than adequate building wasteful? What's a better use of art than to glorify God?

--tibac

It is a question of balance.  A church should not put toom uch of their money in a building but not too little of an amount.  What is the right amount?  I do not know the exact percentage but I think that one that prays about it can see when too much is spent on a building and not on the poor or whatever.  But then again I think that one can see when the reverse is true but that is less often the case. 

seangoh · Dec 25, 2002

Actually the most devious error the Catholics did was to introduce pagan doctrines into Christianity.
Doctrines such as Eternal Torment in Hell, Immortality of the Soul and the Worship of the Sun (Sunday Worship)
Just go and search in google and type in "origin of eternal torment" or whatever.

I just love this quote from the Methodist-Congregationalist clergyman, Amos Phelps (1805-1874):
"This doctrine [of natural immortality] can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity, a perverted Judaism, and pagan philosophy, and a superstitious idolatry, to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrowed it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels of Paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology: "ye shall not surely die.""

Blackhawk · Dec 25, 2002

Originally posted by seangoh
Actually the most devious error the Catholics did was to introduce pagan doctrines into Christianity.
Doctrines such as Eternal Torment in Hell, Immortality of the Soul and the Worship of the Sun (Sunday Worship)
Just go and search in google and type in "origin of eternal torment" or whatever.

Well in Acts Christians were worshipping on Sunday so I guess the church in Acts was corrupted also.  Jesus must of been corrupted too since He spoke about hell and judgement more than heaven.  He even said it was eternal punishment more than once. He also preached of the heaven and that natural death was not the end of us so He was very corrupted huh? I think that sometimes things get confusing because other religions have taught things like what is taught in Christianity thus many reject it just because of that fact without relaly looking at the Bible. 

I just love this quote from the Methodist-Congregationalist clergyman, Amos Phelps (1805-1874):
"This doctrine [of natural immortality] can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity, a perverted Judaism, and pagan philosophy, and a superstitious idolatry, to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrowed it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels of Paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology: "ye shall not surely die."" [/B]

wow it is amazing how much he knows.  I guess he is right and jesus was wrong when he spoke these words that John recorded.

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
(NAU)

 

SoliDeoGloria · Oct 24, 2003

seangoh said:
Actually the most devious error the Catholics did was to introduce pagan doctrines into Christianity.
Doctrines such as Eternal Torment in Hell, Immortality of the Soul and the Worship of the Sun (Sunday Worship)

Huh..? I am beginning to wonder the crediblity of your sources. Immortality of the soul a pagan influence into Christianity..? A casual perusal of the Sacred Scriptures would infer the eternal nature of man's spirit, and everlasting torture of hell. I do not get your argument.

Besides, just because the Catholic Church deemed sunday to be a day of worship for Christians, does not mean Christians worship the sun on that day. Really...I am wondering the depth of your scholarship. No informed Christian, theologian or otherwise, would make so blatant a claim that Christians worship the Sun..!

Yes, the origins of "Sunday" was actually of norse myth, a day dedicated to the Sun god, Sol. But there is where it all ends. Monday is "Moon-day", Tuesday is "Tyr-day", a day dedicated to the son of Woden and Frigg, the former a chief god, and the latter his wife. Wednesday is the day of "Woden", Thursday to Thor, the god of thunder. Friday is Frigg's day, Woden's wife, and Saturday the day of Saturn. All these simply show the origins of the days of a calendar week, which is of pagan origin. But that does not imply the whole English world who adopted such a calendar are pagans..? Do we?

Since Sunday was dedicated to the worship of the Sun-god in roman times, the Church sanctify that day for the worshop of Christ, to the Glory of God.

One other thing, of course, no bible scholar would assert that Christ was born on Dec 25th, just because Christmas was on that day. It is admitted that Christmas is a pagan festival, to mark the end of the winter solstice. Yet with the consecration of the Church, it was made a Day to commemmorate the Lord's birth. No harm there..?

dignitized · Oct 28, 2003

Oy vey. I see nothing changed while I was away.

The only people who believe that the Christian faith was ever corrupted by Paganism are the Ignorant and the decieved.

Rick Otto · Oct 30, 2003

Max, do I see your tongue in your cheek?

Soli, I think the examples given on the first post by VOW adequately prove that paganism wasn't the ONLY source of syncretism in catholicism.
And of course SAYING you're not rendering respect to a nonchristian tradition regardless of its origin, while instituting & practicing it, should salve the conscience of anyone who values religion above truth.
If you don't see any harm in placing Jesus' birthday on Apollo's, it stands to reason, that you probably don't realize that celebrating birthdays is itself a Chaldean tradition based on the Astrological belief that the day of your birth is portentious, and that Job made sacrificial penance for his children because they insisted on keeping this pagan tradition.
Convenience isn't free.
So calling Sunday Service Sun Worship, is in this narrow sense, not so much of a leap.
Decoration is a waste of both time & money while Christians are being slaughtered and bibles aren't universally free & available.

dignitized · Oct 30, 2003

rick: Christmas is not a celebration of Jesus's birthday, but rather a celebration of the BIRTH of Christ - there is a difference. Christmas - PROPERLY the nativity of Jesus Christ is the day we remember the GIFT God gave the world by His being born in the Likeness of men. Jesus Christ could not have died for our sins if he had not first been BORN in the flesh.

If you think that there was some paganization of Christianity in the celebration of Christmas based on it being celebrated on December 25 you are sadly mistaken and ignorant of a very important fact in history. ORIGINALLY, Christmas was celebrated in JANUARY and still is by those who use the OLD Julian calendar namely the EASTERN and ORTHODOX churches.

As for Sunday being a pagan holy day - OY VEY. Read - http://www.herbertwarmstrong.com/sundayworship.htm this link says it all.

Rick Otto · Oct 30, 2003

Holy Cow, Max!
How much can a dog be made to look like a duck?
The original celebration being on another wrong day is no credential either. The day & celebration of it, no matter in what "light" yoi cast it, is a Chaldean association ORIGINALLY, & is no-wise a Godly one.
To gussy it up with the filthy rags of good intentions is not only folly in & of itself, but it breeds confusion and error. How many of the rank & file are savvy to your fine distinctions? Of this kind of delicacy there is no end, but there is simplicity in the truth that resonates thru the many veneers that men use to try & preserve truth that is living. More & more layers of detail are added until the pomp & regalia are world class, "universal", you might say.

dignitized · Oct 30, 2003

rick: is it wrong to "celebrate" Birthdays?

Please answer YES or NO

Rick Otto · Oct 31, 2003

Yes or no.

Rick Otto · Oct 31, 2003

I don't recommend it, and it looks to me like scripture doesn't approve.

Man, switch avatars.
That one is beginnin' to look a lil'
like Charlie Manson(lol).

I think it's wrong to ask me if it's wrong.

dignitized · Oct 31, 2003

otto: dude you are starting to sound like a Jehovahs witness . . . .

Addressing so-called Paganisms in the Catholic Church

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