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Addressing so-called Paganisms in the Catholic Church

Discussion in 'Ecclesiology' started by VOW, May 20, 2002.

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  1. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    I've seen numerous references to so-called pagan origins of some of the practices or things found in the Catholic Church. Here are some interesting Scriptural quotations:

    Robes of Priests
    Exodus 28: 2-5
    The Dwelling (in regard to fancy decorations, paintings, stained glass windows, etc)
    Exodus 38: 32-43

    Cereal Offerings (in regards to incense)
    Leviticus 2: 1-3
    Showbread (in regards to the round shape of the Bread used in Communion)
    Leviticus 24: 5-9

    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
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  2. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    I wonder do you have any NT references? What can you find that would indicate how Jesus would want the Christian Church? Are your references more in line with a Jewish synagog?

    :) LOVE
     
  3. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    The point is, if they're Jewish traditions, they're not "pagan".

    I personally doubt whether God particularly cares whether the Communion wafers are round, square, or shaped like duckies and bunnies. However, if He has a preference, perhaps it's for the very cakes that were made as an offering to Him; after all, they are now His offering to us.
     
  4. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    Seebs, I love you, will you marry me?

    (oh, wait, I'm already married!)

    To Catchup:

    Seebs is absolutely right. I've heard much howling and screaming about all the paganistic practices adopted by the Catholic Church to "make nice" with the heathens they forcibly converted.

    God was VERY specific to Moses in how worship and the accouterments should be. And there is absolutely NO HARM in using some of the Jewish customs in honoring God.

    Same God, right?


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  5. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Well..Jesus was Jewish!
     
  6. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Catchup:

    Better yet! You got any NT references where Jesus (or the Apostles, for that matter) specifically said DON'T DO THIS? (and I'm not talking about Jesus scolding the Pharisees, either!)


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  7. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    Vow,

    I have no problem with it as long as it is not something that is regarded as essential or that you would break fellowship with me because I do things differently. Another words if I did not use incense in my church then i will go to hell.

    These ae really small things that we can do in different ways and be happy in our diversity.

    blackhawk
     
  8. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Blackhawk -

    It's not about what separates us - it's trying to clarify that practices within the Catholic Church are not paganistic, which is usually an anti-Catholic tactic in debates.

    If all else fails - call 'em pagans.

    If you don't use incense - that's cool with the church.

    Btw....Journey (the band) now has Faithfully and Lights Incense for sale on their website! ;)
     
  9. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    "I'm not just the King of the Jews, but I'm also a member!"

    (If you've never seen Hair Club for Men commercials on TV, this won't make sense.)
     
  10. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    :D Seebs! :D :D
     
  11. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    Catholics... Relax!!!!

    I am not in the attack mode. I asked a simple question.

    Jumpy aren't ya? :D

    I have noticed if you do not have an answer then you either belittle...get mad...or change the subject.

    What's with that??? I thought we were all family?

    Read my post...
    but please do not read into my post. :rolleyes:

    :) LOVE
     
  12. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Catchup:

    Yeah, we're a jumpy bunch. Because it sure seems people try to ARGUE us into finally figuring out how WRONG the Church is.

    And when we don't agree, they get aggressive.

    And WE aren't the ones doing the belittling, Hon.

    What have we NOT answered? ANY question posed to Catholicism has always been answered completely, from what I've seen!


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  13. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Catchup -

    The problem is we do provide answers, but they are dismissed as "unbiblical", "made up" or "that does not fit into my personal beliefs."

    We hear it all the time so if we're getting a bit punch and slap-happy you'll try and understand.

    There is nothing that we can say or do to convince those who are dead set against the Catholic Church that there is nothing amiss or unbiblical taking place.

    We are kind, understanding and extremely tolerant of all that we put up with repeatedly.

    And I would say that if we were apply the same intensity and heat to your beliefs and those who like to argue with us that you would not stand for it for one minute without losing your cool.

    So, you need to relax.
     
  14. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    KC,

    I understand. I just wanted to make that statement. I really did not think that VOW was saying that she would break fellowship with me because of this.

    This was what i was mostly trying to get across.

    "These ae really small things that we can do in different ways and be happy in our diversity. "

    That we are all Christians and we can be happy in our diversity in the nonessentials. i personally like to worship in the ways of other denominations. While I was in portland not too long ago I went to a mass at the Grotto and it was a very good worship experience. i wanted to also speak to a monk to see about how they worship God in their daily life but that did not pan out.

    i am saying that we can all learn from eachother in these things and do try the worship styles and customs of other denominations.

    blackhawk
     
  15. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    Hmm. You said "I wonder do you have any NT references? What can you find that would indicate how Jesus would want the Christian Church? Are your references more in line with a Jewish synagog?"

    Now, that sounds to me like an accusation (implied, perhaps, but an accusation nonetheless) that these practices should not be part of a Christian church, because the references that led to them are OT. Given that it's in the context of showing that these practices are not pagan in origin, however, it seems like a simple point missed.

    The question was "Are these practices pagan in origin?", and the answer is clearly "No."

    (If I don't seem relaxed, don't worry; I'm not Catholic, so I'm not covered by the injunction on Catholics to relax.)
     
  16. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Absolutely!

    That's too bad...I'm sure it was cool.

    True, its just that some of us can't get over the hurdle of mistrust and concern someone is trying to convert us to something we're not comfortable with.

    If waving your hands in the air "Like ya just don't care" to praise the lord - that's OK, that's not paganistic and its not unholy! Problem is...there are those paranoid folks who have to jump in and give their $.02.

    We're cool. :cool: ;)
     
  17. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    That's an excellent attitude. It's important to start by recognizing that all the other Christians *are* Christians, even when they disagree with you.
     
  18. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    So you think Jesus would want all the money spent on the decorations etc...etc....etc...?

    :) LOVE
     
  19. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    "So you think Jesus would want all the money spent on the decorations etc...etc....etc...? "

    i would say no but i do not know who said that we should spend all the money on decorations.
     
  20. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Blackhawk:

    The Scriptural references I provided from the Old Testament discuss in detail extreme decoration in the "Tent" Temple, and it is all to honor God.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
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