Shroud of Turin proven genuine by REAL science

VOW

Moderator
Feb 7, 2002
6,912
15
71
*displaced* CA, soon to be AZ!
Visit site
✟28,000.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
To ifriit:

Simple, I don't know of any studies about the composition of the shroud, and don't have enough interest to do serious research at a library.

So what good would any scientific source be that I might provide? If you are so uninterested, why are you even bothering to read this thread? Your knowledge obviously is second-third-fourth or worse -hand. You could be with the understanding the Shroud is made of goosefeathers pinned on an afghan. That's an armchair pilot in my book. Your arguments are moot.


To Lewis:

Because VOW it is property of a Church that has no interest in releasing it for intensive study.

Actually the Church has cooperated quite a bit. I think the main goal for the Church is to avoid desecrating what might possibly be a holy object. As long as the object does not detract from faith in God, the Vatican would have no argument against the Shroud. But it sure doesn't want to see it poked, prodded, defaced, mocked, stained, ruined, or destroyed. The Vatican stance on just about everything is one of conservatism.


Peace,
~VOW
 
Upvote 0
Originally posted by s0uljah
Actually, I said similiar, I never said the "same" as the Shroud.  When the C14 issue is acknowledged by the critics, then I will be glad to move onto other issues.

 

What? You won´t back up these claims, unless everyone who doesn´t agree with you on the C14 case agrees with you? Are you kidding? Please back up your claims. What images caused by the Hiroshima explosion show characteristics similar to the images on the shroud?
 
Upvote 0
Upvote 0
No it wasn't. The Shroud of Turin's history only dates back to 1357, when it was first displayed in Lirey, France. (It's in the Gove paper.) What's interesting is how well the C-14 dating corresponds to its historical beginings.

Wrong. It's history goes back to the Gospels. It can be traced traveling through various lands, and the pollens on the linen from those lands proves it.

AD 33

The Gospels record the life, death, burial, and the subsequent resurrection of Jesus Christ. The first historical evidence of the Shroud comes from the Gospels. So, we have eye-witnesses that place the burial cloth at the site of the tomb.

"Now after these things Joseph of Arimathea, because he was a disciple of Jesus (although for fear of the Jews a secret one), besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus. And Pilate gave permission. He came, therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there also came Nicodemus (who at first had come to Jesus by night), bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, in weight about a hundred pounds. They therefore took the body of Jesus and wrapped it in linen cloths with the spices, after the Jewish manner of preparing for burial." John 19:38-40

"Simon Peter therefore came following him, and went into the tomb, saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief which has been about his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded in a place by itself." John 20:6-7

AD 33+

The Shroud was taken by Peter to Edessa.

"In the Middle East, religious relics were a source of political status and power and often had a talismanic potency, being seen as protection of the city that owned them, warding off foreign invasions and natural disasters alike. Known as palladia, every city had such a holy prophylactic. In Edessa, it was the Mandylion." (cf: Lyn Picknett & Clive Prince, Turin Shroud, 1994)

The Mandylion, literally "little handkerchief" is also known as Akheiropoietos - "not made by human hands". These refered to the image of Christ on a cloth. While in Constantinople, the image was known as "The Mandylion", a Byzantine word.

AD 525

The Image of Edessa dissapears from history until a flood destroys Edessa. While rebuilding the city, the builders discover the secret chamber on the West Gate of the city where the Shroud was hidden.

AD 640

Arculphus was a pilgrim in Jerusalem where he saw and kissed the "winding-sheet of the Lord which was placed over his head in the sepulcher."

AD 800

St. John Damascene mentions the shroud as being one of the relics venerated by the early Christians of the time.

AD 942

The Byzantine general Curcuas captured Edessa. To avoid destruction, Archbishop Abramius of Somasata arranged that the town hand over the Mandylion. The image was then forcibly removed from the city. It was to be part of the Emperor’s huge collection of relics in the Pharos Chapel in Constantinople.

AD 944

The Mandylion arrives at the famous church of Our Lady of Blachernae. It was displayed in the throne in Blachernae.

AD 1204

Robert de Clari, a knight from Picardy, takes part in the capture of Constantinople. His reports describe the riches and relics he saw. Among them are the two pieces of the true cross, the head of the lance, two nails, a phial of blood, a tunic, and a crown. In a separate account he describes a linen cloth bearing the face of Jesus. (Later to be known as The Veronica from the legend that St. Veronica wiped the face of Jesus and the image of his face was imprinted on three parts of the linen.)

Another account talks of the Shroud in Blachernae: "And among the others there was a monastery known as Lady Saint Mary of the Blachernae, in which was kept the shroud in which Our Lord was wrapped; on every Friday this was held out, so well that it was possible to see the face of Our Lord. And neither Greek nor Frenchman knew what happened to that Shroud after the town was taken."

AD 1349

The shroud is venerated in the Cathedral of Saint-Etienne. A fire breaks out and the shroud disappears. It could have been stolen.

AD 1357

The shroud is in the possession of Count Geoffroy de Charney; given to him by King Philip VI. The robber must have given it to the King (?) This was deposited in the collegiate establishment at Lirey.

AD 1389

The authenticity of The Shroud is questioned. No one knows if this is the true shroud because it was stolen in 1349 when fire broke out in the Cathedral of Saint-Etienne. It was even more difficult to establish its authenticity owing to the fact that the King of France was the receiver of the stolen good which he doubtfully confessed of doing.

AD 1452

Because of all the chaos in determining its authenticity, the shroud was made a gift by Marguerite de Charney to Anne de Lusignan, the wife of the Duke of Savoy. The History of the Shroud is clear after this event.

The Duke of Savoy built a chapel for it at the Chambery. Several expositions were held. According to a chronicler, Antony de Lalaing, several tests were performed on the shroud to prove its identity: it was boiled in oil several times and also washed. The shroud is kept in a silver box when it was not being exposed.

AD 1532

A fire broke out in the Chambery. The silver box became too hot and molten silver burned the corner of the Shroud - just missing the image. These are what we see as the triangular shapes on the Shroud. Water was used to control the fire, and this eventually left watermarks on the Shroud.

The Poor Clares of Chambery sew patches to cover the holes made by the molten silver

AD 1578

The shroud journeys with its owner to Turin, and there it stays permanently. St. Charles Borromeo vowed to go to the Chambery to venerate the Shroud. But the Duke of Savoy went to Turin instead. There it was deposited in the chapel adjoining the Cathedral of St. John.

AD 1898

Secundo Pia takes first photographs. He realizes that the shroud is a photographic negative. The world's interest on the shroud is renewed.
 
Upvote 0
Because VOW it is property of a Church that has no interest in releasing it for intensive study

Oh man, this is hilarious. :D

Over 1000 special tests and over 32,000 photographs have been taken of the relic. These studies make the Shroud of Turin the most intensively studied object in history.

Yep, the evil Church has been hiding it from scientific testing alright! :rolleyes:

I no longer feel bad when Lewis called me a liar.  This post proves he has little to no credibility!
 
Upvote 0

VOW

Moderator
Feb 7, 2002
6,912
15
71
*displaced* CA, soon to be AZ!
Visit site
✟28,000.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
To Armageddonman:

The Mandylion is considered to be the Shroud, folded, because of the notoriety of Crucifixion. The believers wanted to be able to discuss Christ with non-believers without the crucifixion being a point of dissension.

The timeline of the Mandylion coincides with the timeline of the Shroud. The features of the Mandylion coincide with the features of the Shroud. At no time were both artifacts present.


Peace,
~VOW
 
Upvote 0
VOW: So what good would any scientific source be that I might provide?
Scientific sources are easily verified.  I might read something, but I don't have time to do proper research.

VOW: If you are so uninterested, why are you even bothering to read this thread?
I'm fascinated by the lengths Christians will go to to prove something is real while simultaneously providing no proof at all.

VOW: Your knowledge obviously is second-third-fourth or worse -hand. You could be with the understanding the Shroud is made of goosefeathers pinned on an afghan. That's an armchair pilot in my book. Your arguments are moot.
You'll note that I've made no arguments one way or the other about the Shroud.  I've presented what I assume to be a reasonable assumptions about it, but I haven't argued it.

Instead, if you'd actually read anything I said, my arguments have been pointing out that you have no verifiable proof.  That last bit could just as easily be about you considering you've not even bothered presenting anything like scientific evidence, but simply conjecture and hypothesis.  By your own arguments, your arguments are just as moot as mine, Ms. Pot.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

VOW

Moderator
Feb 7, 2002
6,912
15
71
*displaced* CA, soon to be AZ!
Visit site
✟28,000.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
To Ifriit:

I'm fascinated by the lengths Christians will go to to prove something is real while simultaneously providing no proof at all.

Ah, entertainment value.

And I've read the entire thread, and I've read Internet sources, and I've read books, and magazine articles about the Shroud. So, my arguments aren't as moot as yours; at least I have some background.

Most information in the world is not gathered via scientific means. I would therefore have to assume you would consider the world a fraud as well.


Peace,
~VOW
 
Upvote 0
VOW: Ah, entertainment value.
I wouldn't call it quite entertainment, per se. More like curiosity. I genuinely don't understand why you Shroud-defenders keep going on without presenting anything. Heck, you're even getting mad at me for requesting substantiation. Why won't you provide it? Is it too hard for you? Do you not care enough either?
VOW: And I've read the entire thread, and I've read Internet sources, and I've read books, and magazine articles about the Shroud. So, my arguments aren't as moot as yours; at least I have some background.
I've read volumes of materials on conspiracy theories; does that mean I should be taken seriously if I start spouting off about how the Bilderbergers are manipulating the Illuminati to use their Mind Control Rays on the President? Further, I've read plenty of materials online about the Shroud, but I've yet to see anything that claims to prove it is what it's claimed to be that could be taken seriously.
VOW: Most information in the world is not gathered via scientific means. I would therefore have to assume you would consider the world a fraud as well.
Well, I guess that's indicative of your rational capabilities, then. :p Neener-neener-boo-boo!

I'm sorry for sniping, but I'm getting tired of this. You haven't bothered to respond with anything except ad hominem attacks on my character for long enough. If you want to have a thread for being nasty to one another, hey, fine by me, but it would be more polite to take it offboard.
 
Upvote 0

Chris H

Active Member
Sep 1, 2002
240
0
58
Ohio
Visit site
✟569.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Originally posted by humblejoe
Personally, I would stand by the Carbon-14 dating. It's a reliable standard of scientific measurement.

:clap:

Exactly what we would expect if Rufus and the other rational thiners are correct and it is indeed a 14th century Palestinian forgery. Which I believe it is.

Although I admire Vow's determination to debate.

Chris :wave:
 
Upvote 0

VOW

Moderator
Feb 7, 2002
6,912
15
71
*displaced* CA, soon to be AZ!
Visit site
✟28,000.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
To Chris:

Why do you believe it to be a 14th century Palestinian forgery? How would the image have been produced, considering it is NOT paint? Have you looked at any of the links provided regarding the Shroud? Admittedly, the information they contain is NOT published in a scientific journal, but that does not completely invalidate the data contained therein. And ONE item of information is that the image is NOT created by paint.

So then. Given 14th century capabilities, provide a plausible argument for how this was created. I won't even require you to provide published scientific data to support your supposition, either. Just go to the site:
www.shroudstory.com and read the findings. Using their parameters of what they say the shroud image is NOT, concoct a reasonable explanation of what it IS.

For if you are bold enough to state the Shroud is a forgery, you should have a way of backing that up. C-14 testing alone won't do it. All the C-14 results do is limit the available techniques for producing such an artifact.

Oh, and here's a webpage with links to scientific papers validating the Shroud:
http://www.shroud.com/papers.htm


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

seebs

God Made Me A Skeptic
Apr 9, 2002
31,914
1,529
18
Saint Paul, MN
Visit site
✟55,225.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I, for one, am not entirely ready to rule out the possibility of at least one error in the existing tests, and it would only take one to allow a boring and fairly mundane explanation.

I don't have enough information to form much of an opinion. It'd be interesting to see further analysis of this, but I don't know how it would be done. The "unknown high-energy particles" theory does not sound convincing in terms of physics as I understand it.
 
Upvote 0

VOW

Moderator
Feb 7, 2002
6,912
15
71
*displaced* CA, soon to be AZ!
Visit site
✟28,000.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
To Seebs:

Well, since these high-energy particles are proposed to be emissions from the RESURRECTION, I don't doubt that there is no information to be found anywhere.

I mean....resurrections aren't exactly everyday occurrances, now, are they? ;)


Peace,
~VOW
 
Upvote 0

seebs

God Made Me A Skeptic
Apr 9, 2002
31,914
1,529
18
Saint Paul, MN
Visit site
✟55,225.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Originally posted by VOW
To Seebs:

Well, since these high-energy particles are proposed to be emissions from the RESURRECTION, I don't doubt that there is no information to be found anywhere.

I mean....resurrections aren't exactly everyday occurrances, now, are they? ;)

Good point... On the other hand, I don't know why they'd emit particles, nor why those particles would apparently have no effect *at all* on cloth with blood on it... It's very odd.
 
Upvote 0

LewisWildermuth

Senior Veteran
May 17, 2002
2,526
128
51
Bloomington, Illinois
✟11,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Originally posted by s0uljah
Oh man, this is hilarious. :D

Over 1000 special tests and over 32,000 photographs have been taken of the relic. These studies make the Shroud of Turin the most intensively studied object in history.

Yep, the evil Church has been hiding it from scientific testing alright! :rolleyes:

I no longer feel bad when Lewis called me a liar.  This post proves he has little to no credibility!

Well souljah, if the Catholic church was so interested in it and believed in its authentisity so much why has there only been one c-14 dating on it? Why have they not proclaimed it to be a holy relic? Why has it been outside groups, and mostly those trying to prove the shroud to be true, that have funded these tests?

Only a thousand tests of any kind? That is actualy quite few for an item that would have such political and religious impact if found to be the real Mccoy. Why are other items not tested so much? Because they have a known history and simple do not have much if any political or religious signifigance.

And when have I ever called the Catholic church evil? Come on souljah, your persicution ccmplex grows tiresome....
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
We havent presented anything?

Ok...I am going to write up a detailed essay outlining all the evidence for the Shroud, and the tiny bit of evidence against the Shroud.

I will provide detailed references, and you can make up your own minds.

Havent presented anything....ha!
 
Upvote 0