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Servant222
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But Christian Forums may already be defined as a church, whether the leadership wants that designation or not.
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PaladinValer
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Servant222
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Wouldn't the membership list constitute a congregation.
So let's call it the Christian Forums Denomination
So let's call it the Christian Forums Denomination
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Not even close.
The Bible tells us that the church has a specific role to fill:
- To gather together for the corporate preaching and teaching of God's word
- To gather together for corporate prayer and worship
- To gather together to use our gifts for the edification of the body
- To exercise accountability and discipline
In some rare cases, it may be a suppliment to church and an opportunity to fellowship with other believers, but it doesn't fulfil the Biblical description of the church.
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Servant222
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Could you please give me the specific Bible references you base this on?
By this definition, it seems to me that the early churches organized by Paul would have failed miserably to make the grade.
I would also argue that participants on Christian Forums do all of the things you list.
So goes for you PalinValder- show me the Bible references to back your assertion and then explain to me why, in light of the fact that the early Church did not have any more of a defined congregation than we see here, or a defined denomination, it was considered a church.
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chaoschristian
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I oppose what you are suggesting, and I believe there are goods reasons being articulated in this thread for why CF is not and cannot be a church as such.
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Servant222
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I think it would be a great benefit if this was acknowledged to be a church.
Imagine the joy and comfort that a born again believer in a country hostile to Christianity, with no local church to attend, would get knowing that he or she was part of a world-wide church, was part of a group that he or she could call "family"; a family that he or she could share their burdens with, and ask for prayer from.
Have you never noticed the comfort that an awful lot of subscribers get when they participate here? The lonely, the meek, the hurting; all of them gain comfort here from the body of believers that converse with them, pray for them, and bring them hope and some measure of happiness.
If there was a specific Biblical reason for not calling this group of believers, who can converse, share Bible verses, debate freely, and pray together, then fine; I will stand corrected and admit my error.
But until that happens, I think I will be more charitable, and assume that the Holy Spirit has allowed me to plant these thoughts here for a reason.
As usual, I will pray about this matter; maybe others could do the same.
Imagine the joy and comfort that a born again believer in a country hostile to Christianity, with no local church to attend, would get knowing that he or she was part of a world-wide church, was part of a group that he or she could call "family"; a family that he or she could share their burdens with, and ask for prayer from.
Have you never noticed the comfort that an awful lot of subscribers get when they participate here? The lonely, the meek, the hurting; all of them gain comfort here from the body of believers that converse with them, pray for them, and bring them hope and some measure of happiness.
If there was a specific Biblical reason for not calling this group of believers, who can converse, share Bible verses, debate freely, and pray together, then fine; I will stand corrected and admit my error.
But until that happens, I think I will be more charitable, and assume that the Holy Spirit has allowed me to plant these thoughts here for a reason.
As usual, I will pray about this matter; maybe others could do the same.
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chaoschristian
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I find quoting scripture to be abusive in more cases than not, and so avoid it when reasoning alone will suffice, as it does in this case.
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chaoschristian
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Prayer is good, as is the corporate discernment that manifests itself through these threads.
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Servant222
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Yikes, I feel just the opposite- if you can't start off with scripture, then you really are starting off with a foundation made of loose sand, rather than rock.
Matthew 16:
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
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Sure:
Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. 5:27; 1 Tim. 4:13
1Tim. 4:6-16; 2 Tim. 4:2; Acts 20:7-9
Acts 2:46; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2
Eph 4:12-13
- For the repentance, reconciliation, and spiritual growth of the disciplined party (see Proverbs 15:5; 29:15; I Corinthians 4:14; Ephesians 6:4: I Timothy 3:4-5; Hebrews 12:1-11; Psalm 119:115, 141:5; Proverbs 17:10, 25:12, 27:5; Ecclesiastes 7:5; Matthew 7:26-27, 18:15-17; Luke 17:3; Acts 2:40; I Corinthians 5:5; Galatians 6:1-5; II Thessalonians 3:6, 14-15; I Timothy 1:20; Titus 1:13-14; James 1:22);
- For instruction in righteousness and the good of other Christians as an example to them (see Proverbs 13:20; Romans 15:14; I Corinthians 5:11, 15:33-34; Colossians 3:16; I Thessalonians 5:14 [note that this instruction is written to the whole church, not just the elders]; I Timothy 5:20; Titus 1:11-12; Hebrews 10:24-25);
- For the purity of the church as a whole (see I Corinthians 5:6-7; II Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 5:27; II John 10; Jude 24; Revelation 21:2, 7-8);
- For the good of our corporate witness to non-Christians (see Proverbs 28:7; Matthew 5:13-16; John 13:35; Acts 5:10-14; Ephesians 5:11; I Timothy 3:7; II Peter 2:2; I John3:10); and
- Supremely for the glory of God by reflecting His holy character (see Deuteronomy 5:11; I Kings 11:2; II Chronicles 19:2; Ezra 6:21; Nehemiah 9:2; Isaiah 52:11; Ezekiel 36:20; Matthew 5:16; John 15:8; Romans 2:24, 15:5-6; II Corinthians 6:14-7:1; Ephesians 1:4, 5:27; I Peter 2:12).
No, they all meet these criteria. In fact, it is their example that makes for the basis of the NT teaching.
But they don't. They don't gather together for the corporate preaching and teaching of God's word. They don't gather together for corporate worship. They don't gather together to use their spiritual gifts for the edification of the body. They don't practice accountability or discipline. There is no pastor, no elders, no deacon, no church officers.
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Servant222
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I hope you don't mind- this is quite the mouthful, so I'm going to try taking it one spoonful at a time. For easy reference, I have included part of your original post; of course, it is easy to go back to the whole post if anyone needs to do so.
Colossians 4:
16After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.
So Paul here, some believe while in prison in Rome (see Philemon 1:22), has written a letter to the church at Colassae in what is now southern Turkey, and has in turn asked them to forward it to the nearby church at Laodicea, and to read the Laodicean's letter in return.
What is important to understand here is that the purpose of all this was to spread the Word, and since there was no electronic media, this could only be done by hand-carried letter. Paul never once, anywhere suggests that the Word could only be communicated by someone standing there reading out loud his letter; that any other method of delivery was invalid.
It is not known what the church at Colassae or Laodicea was like- I am not aware that any of the extensive archeological work that has been done at either place has ever undercovered a physical Christian church. Most likely then, the church was like all others in those days- a gathering of believers that studied the Word (see the comment below regarding Acts 20:8).
So today we have all sorts of additional means to communicate the Word, besides messages from the pulpit- electronic media- radio, television, CD's, audio tapes and, yes, the Internet. Churches no longer have to pass a letter from place to place, and Christians no longer have to be there and rely on someone to read Bible verses to them on a random basis as they receive them- they can get their own Bible and read and re-read all they want.
Now the next passages you provided have a similar theme- they instruct believers to study the word, to preach (in public yet!), and to teach.
1 Thessalonians:
27I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.
1 Timothy 4:
13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.
1 Timothy 4:6 to 16:
6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
11Command and teach these things. 12Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
15Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
2 Timothy 4
2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encouragewith great patience and careful instruction.
Great passages!! Lots of things we can learn from! But about the only thing that can't be done over the Internet is the physical act of the body of elders laying their hands on someone. This is certainly a nice touch (so to speak!) but hardly necessary for Believers to study, preach, teach, correct, rebuke and encourage- all things that can be done, and very well, on Christian Forums. It is also not a commandment- nowhere does Paul say that the preaching of the Word is invalid if someone doesn't lay hands on you.
Let's look at the next few passages you provided:
Acts 20
7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead.
Notice that scripture was mainly conveyed through word of mouth, since few written accounts existed at that time. Notice also where the Believers were meeting- there is no indication that this was anything more than just an ordinary upstairs room in someone's house. And just like with some of today's pastors, Paul droned on and on- causing one person to not only fall asleep, but to fall out of a third story window to his death! Take heed you pastors reading this- the drone you groan may leave someone prone.
Acts 2:
46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. I added a bit here for continuity.
What I find significant here is the reference to the effectiveness of the church- "the Lord added to their number daily those who were being save." Contrast that to the world-wide church today, which is shrinking- and shrinking drastically in places like Europe where church attendance, according to one minister I know in Switzerland, is now less than 15%. Sites like Christian Forums provide an incredible opportunity to reverse this trend- to spread the good news of the Gospel to more people than any other ministry in history, and to give them a medium where they can learn and study the Word, and give and receive prayer, even if trapped in places where physical ministry is impossible, and church attendance a death sentence!! Is it not possible that this whole ministry has been ordained by God to finally spread his Word to all people, all over the world!!!
Matthew 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (I used a different font color to distinguish your passages from mine. Also, I deal with baptism below).
Now the one thing that I see in your passages that can't be done over the Internet is the breaking of bread together- certainly an important ritual in most churches. Jesus, in Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11, certainly instructs us to do this: here is Luke 22
19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." (again, I used a different color of font just to distinguish this from the quotes that you referenced).
With over 3000 participants on line at any one time, it would be difficult to corporately break and share bread at the same time. But does the validity of the collective body here at Christian Forums depend on the breaking of bread together? Certainly anyone is free to do this on their own, preferably with another believer or more.
Of course, Baptism also can't be done over the Internet- but every Christian must endeavor to carry out this necessary act of obedience at some point, and at some time, in their life.
1 Corinthians 16
2On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
Well- this is easy; anyone can donate to Christian Forums and help to keep the WEB site running.
Ephesians 4: (I added a bit for continuity)
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Theoretically, this could be more formally done at Christian Forums- but some would argue that it is already done- there is a theological team, an ecumenical team, an Outreach team, a Ministry team, and a group that takes care of discipline- all charged with carrying out the duties of evangelists, pastors, teachers, etc. And then, of course, there are the many pastors themselves who participate.
I don't know how many churches have apostles and prophets; I don't think that anyone in my church has ever claimed to have those gifts, nor do I think that many other churches are so blessed.
So in summary, I still maintain that the scriptures provide no teachings that suggest that Christian Forums cannot be a viable church. I would also suggest that if all those who don't attend a "traditional" church were excluded from being considered as part of the world-wide church of Jesus Christ, then the number of people who would be considered Christians would drop drastically.
I have always been consistent in my suggestion that, ideally, every Christian should endeavor to attend a traditional local church, and to be baptized. But failing that, I would far rather that a believer be part of a world-wide fellowship of Christians that he or she can call their church, and that can deliver all of the fundamental teachings of Jesus Christ.
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You're right. However, we're still to gather together for the corporate preaching and teaching of God's word.
We also can't gather together for the corporate preaching and teaching of God's word, gather for corporate prayer and worship, gather together to use our spiritual gifts for the edification of the saints, or practice accountability and discipline.
Right. They gathered together to hear the scriptures conveyed by word of mouth.
Except that ChristianForums is a breeding ground for false doctrine. Even the moderators and leadership of ChristianForums cannot be trusted to defend sound doctrine.
Church attendence is a death sentence, but they have free access to the internet?
Well, sure, but just because Jesus commands us to do something doesn't mean we should really do it, right? I mean, we can just post a message on an anonymous internet message forum instead.
There are no pastors here. There are no elders here. There are no deacons here. They do not exercise church discipline.
No one here has ever been disciplined for false doctrine or sinful behavior.
In fact, many people here have put forth false doctrines under the protection of the moderators while those who've attempted to correct it have been punished.
And I just showed you dozens.
If they're not a member of a local assembly of believers, as the Bible tells them to be, are they Christians in the first place?
Why? Why go through all of that trouble when they can just sit in their parents' basement and hang out on the internet?
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And yet, when someone shows you scripture, the first thing you want to do is to twist it to fit your own opinions.
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chaoschristian
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By that standard it would be difficult at best to refute anything with regards to your claims on this issue.
Scriptures don't speak specifically on the issue of internet communities and whether or not asynchronous social networks can constitute a church as understood by 1st century Jews.
I wonder why.
Your initial question was about whether or not CF is a church, not if it can be a church. You've shifted the topic here subtlely and significantly.
CF can be a church. It would take a lot of change though, in mission, purpose, intent, direction and leadership and structure. All of these issues have been addressed in this thread.
There are sites out there, I think, that strive to be online churches. CF isn't one of them though, despite the fact that it may in ways and at times appear to be church-like.
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Servant222
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Well, the bottom line is that Christian Forums is spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ to all the world that has the Internet.
I have no reason to WANT it to be a Church- but the discussion so far has convinced me that it should probably try to be more church-like. The subtle change in scope was not intentional, but may be worth pursuing.
I'm not aware of any Christian ministry that does in fact claim to be an "official" Internet-based church; a home for those Christians in countries where they cannot express their religion freely, or for those others who don't want to go to a traditional church.
I like the fact that I can now go to places like Palestine and describe Christian Forums as being more than just a discussion forum- that people in such places can, in fact, consider it to be their on-line place of refuge, of prayer, of teaching, and of hope.
I have no reason to WANT it to be a Church- but the discussion so far has convinced me that it should probably try to be more church-like. The subtle change in scope was not intentional, but may be worth pursuing.
I'm not aware of any Christian ministry that does in fact claim to be an "official" Internet-based church; a home for those Christians in countries where they cannot express their religion freely, or for those others who don't want to go to a traditional church.
I like the fact that I can now go to places like Palestine and describe Christian Forums as being more than just a discussion forum- that people in such places can, in fact, consider it to be their on-line place of refuge, of prayer, of teaching, and of hope.
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