What is evolution?

npetreley · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by franklin
Speaking of mutations, evolutionists have to rely on three things to make evolution work. These are natural selection, huge periods of time, and mutations.

You forgot imagination. No matter what problems there are in the evidence that demonstrates evolution cannot occur given what we know about natural selection, mutations, and time, evolutionists can fill in all the gaps with their imagination. "Hey, this fossil looks a bit like that one over there. Since there are similarities, I can imagine how, if evolution were true, the species represented by this fossil could have evolved into the species represented by that fossil! Hence, evolution is true!"

What they fail to realize is that you can use the same reasoning to say with equal confidence: "Hey, this fossil looks a bit like that one over there. Since there are similarities, I can imagine how, if it were possible to create new creatures by drawing them with a crayon, someone could have seen the species represented by this fossil and drew a similar creature with his crayon to create the species represented by that fossil! Hence, crayon creation is true!"

Jerry Smith · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by npetreley

You forgot imagination. No matter what problems there are in the evidence that demonstrates evolution cannot occur given what we know about natural selection, mutations, and time, evolutionists can fill in all the gaps with their imagination. "Hey, this fossil looks a bit like that one over there. Since there are similarities, I can imagine how, if evolution were true, the species represented by this fossil could have evolved into the species represented by that fossil! Hence, evolution is true!"

What they fail to realize is that you can use the same reasoning to say with equal confidence: "Hey, this fossil looks a bit like that one over there. Since there are similarities, I can imagine how, if it were possible to create new creatures by drawing them with a crayon, someone could have seen the species represented by this fossil and drew a similar creature with his crayon to create the species represented by that fossil! Hence, crayon creation is true!"

Or if it ain't like that I sure as heck wouldn't know no better. Cause I thank it might be like that so i aint gone find out no more cause it mite make my hed hurt.

D. Scarlatti · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by npetreley
given what we know about natural selection, mutations, and time

Good point. What do you know about those things? Positive statements only, please.

Jerry Smith · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by D. Scarlatti

Good point. What do you know about those things? Positive statements only, please.

Prediction:

The answer will not be forthcoming

D. Scarlatti · Jun 20, 2002

Hope springs eternal!

npetreley · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by D. Scarlatti

Good point. What do you know about those things? Positive statements only, please.

What? You're not going to ask for a bibliography of everything I've read on the topics and then give me two weeks of tests to see if I'm qualified to make the statement? Shame on you. I thought you were getting REALLY desperate there, but it seems you're only at the "desperate" stage. REALLY is when you start asking for books and an educational history.

Jerry Smith · Jun 20, 2002

How about you just do SOMETHING to give an indication that you actually DO know something about the topic. Your methods so far have been remeniscent of the Wizard of Oz (Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain / my complete lack of understanding about this subject)

franklin · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by D. Scarlatti
Care to support any of these outrageous claims? Pick one.

Scar, Why don't you just face facts and reality with your false God called evolution! It is a fairyTale for adults and there are absolutely no facts anywhere supporting it, even the scientists (non-Christian scientists) have been doubting it for years now! If there are any claims to be considered outrageous it's the deception of evolution! God almighty is control of this universe and that is by no means an outrageous claim, just read the book, if you have one!

Jerry Smith · Jun 20, 2002

Scar, Why don't you just face facts and reality with your false God called evolution! It is a fairyTale for adults and there are absolutely no facts anywhere supporting it, even the scientists (non-Christian scientists) have been doubting it for years now! If there are any claims to be considered outrageous it's the deception of evolution! God almighty is control of this universe and that is by no means an outrageous claim, just read the book, if you have one!

Franklin, frankly (

) the reason he isn't facing up to the facts you are presenting may have something to do with the fact that you have done little or nothing to give him a reason to accept them as facts. You haven't proven or even given a reasonable reason to believe any of your statements.

Only children can be convinced to believe something by insisting repeatedly that they do so - and not even all of them, just the less bright...

Jerry Smith · Jun 20, 2002

Prediction:

The answer will not be forthcoming

I think I might just be a psychic. Move over Geller, make room for Jeller!

franklin · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by Jerry Smith
Franklin, frankly ( ) the reason he isn't facing up to the facts you are presenting may have something to do with the fact that you have done little or nothing to give him a reason to accept them as facts. You haven't proven or even given a reasonable reason to believe any of your statements. Only children can be convinced to believe something by insisting repeatedly that they do so - and not even all of them, just the less bright...

Jerry, To be honest with you, if you layed all the cards on the table with these people and showed them every single bit of proof, do you really think they would believe that evolution is a lie? Let me ask you.... what facts do you have to prove that God Almighty is real? I believe we are living right in the middle of all the proof and evidence a person needs right before our very eyes! Just look at the complexity of the human body and the human brain and how we amazingly function just by breathing air.... is that enough evidence that we didn't come about by chance? Or is it evidence of a supreme designer who is in total control.... I know that's not good enought proof I guess! Oh I love your little dig about little children too! And what did Jesus say about little children and their great simple faith?

Morat · Jun 20, 2002

Randman:

I Talkorigins is reflective of peer-reviewed articles and arguments, then science as far as evolution is in far worse shape than I imagined.

No. It's reflective of professional level summations of such things.

Talk.Origins exists for one reason: To counter the generally low-level and occasionally interesting stuff spewed out at science.

It does this by taking experts in the field, or at least knowledgable people in the field, having them write the equivalant of research papers, referencing them to the source material (journals and such) and then submitting that work for the TO regulars to jump up and down on.

At that point, errors are corrected, new references added, and the whole thing is submitted so that when people like you come up and whine about thermodynamics, I don't have to type as much.

One thing Talkorigins does is claim thousands of transitional fossils. I don't think scientific literature makes those claims.

Have you actually checked the Fossil 2 database?

They're quite correct. Admittedly, it would mean you having to use your brain. You'd have to find the database, work out how to use it, work out how to determine lineages, and then check the fossils.

But if I recall correctly, you can't even keep avian and reptilian features straight, so this might be difficult.

Nick:

What? You're not going to ask for a bibliography of everything I've read on the topics and then give me two weeks of tests to see if I'm qualified to make the statement? Shame on you. I thought you were getting REALLY desperate there, but it seems you're only at the "desperate" stage. REALLY is when you start asking for books and an educational history.

So you're not going to answer. Darn, I owe Jerry a beer. I figured getting you to sum up natural selection and mutation in the way those stupid "biologists" think it works was something you'd actually do.

You really won't put your money where your mouth is, will you? All you are is bluster. How..sad.

Franklin:

Scar, Why don't you just face facts and reality with your false God called evolution! It is a fairyTale for adults and there are absolutely no facts anywhere supporting it, even the scientists (non-Christian scientists) have been doubting it for years now! If there are any claims to be considered outrageous it's the deception of evolution! God almighty is control of this universe and that is by no means an outrageous claim, just read the book, if you have one!

I can't tell which one you picked, or what you think is wrong with it.

Could you try it again? Oh, and please list the "non-Christian scientists" who doubt it. This I'm looking forward to.

Jerry Smith · Jun 20, 2002

Franklin,

When someone clearly doesn't perceive the relevance of what is "obvious", toward supporting the claims you feel they should accept as true, then the next step is to either demonstrate why "obvious" observations should lead them there, or to offer some other observations (that they can verify) and show why they lead inescapably to your conclusions.

For instance, if I asked you to accept the conclusion that God was evil, based on what might be "obvious proof" to me - that evil exists in the universe and God is responsible for the universe, the evil, and the "free will" that brought it about, yet you did not accept this "obvious" observation as proof of my claim that God was evil... wouldn't you expect me to give better proof?

Don't think that I will. I don't think that God is evil. I am just trying to make a point...

Ask yourself, by continually repeating my assertion, could I convince a child that God is evil? (if you answer yes, then you might see the relevance of my statement that only children could be convinced by the method of repeating the assertion and offering no proof.)

franklin · Jun 20, 2002

For instance, if I asked you to accept the conclusion that God was evil, based on what might be "obvious proof" to me - that evil exists in the universe and God is responsible for the universe, the evil, and the "free will" that brought it about, yet you did not accept this "obvious" observation as proof of my claim that God was evil... wouldn't you expect me to give better proof?
Don't think that I will. I don't think that God is evil. I am just trying to make a point...[/B]

Jerry, Some powerful questions and statements if I might add... Well, let me ask you a question my friend... So you don't think God is evil? Well, I don't believe God is evil either. Are you afraid to say that possibly God might be responsible for evil occuring in the world? Now I don't know where you stand spiritually or how much you understand scripture because I haven't seen in your profile any details about any of your beliefs, anyway... The Scripture abounds with examples of God bringing "evil" into people's lives and into this world. Do you think I would have to show you enough scripture in order to prove to you that God is the one who brings evil into peoples lives and into the world for a good reason? Did you ever wonder why God would use the instrument of evil in peoples lives? I'll share one passage with you.....
Hebrews 12:6-11, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth...If ye endure chastening...afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
This shows that the trials which God gives us lead eventually to our spiritual growth.
I thank you for making your point and I hope I made mine.
If you think I haven't, send me another reply I will be glad to go on further with you.

franklin · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by Morat
Franklin:
I can't tell which one you picked, or what you think is wrong with it.
Could you try it again? Oh, and please list the "non-Christian scientists" who doubt it. This I'm looking forward to.

Morat, If I gave you a list of every single scientist who rejects your fairy tale, would you still be convinced that your evolutionary god is a lie? I doubt it! So what's the point?
I know, you want a list of all the scientists! Evolution is just one lame excuse after another to reject the one and only true God who created everything!

Cheers

Morat · Jun 20, 2002

Morat, If I gave you a list of every single scientist who rejects your fairy tale, would you still be convinced that your evolutionary god is a lie? I doubt it! So what's the point?
I know, you want a list of all the scientists! Evolution is just one lame excuse after another to reject the one and only true God who created everything!

What's the point? You made a claim. I want to see you back it up.

What other point is needed? If I claimed the sky was green, would you not ask me to prove it?

Starting off by making claims and refusing to back them is a bad move. It shows you're not serious about discussion, about conversation. It shows, in fact, that you're not willing or capable of behaving like an adult.

As for Jerry's post: I'm not going to speak for Jerry (although my impression is you misread his intent. My take on his post was that he was using "God is evil" not as a debate point, but to get you to realize that simply claiming evolutions is "obviously" wrong isn't the best way of going about it.

Especially given that you haven't shown any evidence that your understanding of evolutions is thorough (and in fact your tone and arguments would indicate, in my experience, that you harbor numerous misconceptions), much less been able to give specifics of why it's so "obviously" wrong.

I don't know about Jerry, but I'm perfectly willing to discuss evolution with you. And would enjoy doing so. Provided you're willing to actually talk about it, and not throw out "obvious" wrongs.

If something is obvious, then you should be able to support it. You claim evolution is a fairy tale, then burst out with a host of the worst misunderstandings. I don't blame you for thinking evolution is a fairy tale. What you think evolution is probably is one. What evolution really is, as biologists understand it, is somewhat different.

Now, if you'd like to discuss this, I suggest we start simply. What is evolution?

Don't give me value judgements (good/bad, wrong/right) or conclusions. Just tell me, in your own words, what the Theory of Evolution is as a biologist sees it.

D. Scarlatti · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by npetreley
What? You're not going to ask for a bibliography of everything I've read on the topics and then give me two weeks of tests to see if I'm qualified to make the statement?

No.

I thought you were getting REALLY desperate there, but it seems you're only at the "desperate" stage.

Just "desperate," yes.

REALLY is when you start asking for books and an educational history.

Okay. I guess I'm not "REALLY desperate."

So you answer is ......... what?

seebs · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by franklin

Morat, If I gave you a list of every single scientist who rejects your fairy tale, would you still be convinced that your evolutionary god is a lie?

Franklin, where on earth do you get the idea of an "evolutionary god"?

Believing in evolution is like believing in particle entanglement, or quarks, or radioactive decay; it's a scientific theory used to explain certain observations about the world.

D. Scarlatti · Jun 20, 2002

Originally posted by franklin
Scar, Why don't you just face facts and reality with your false God called evolution!

I don't worship it. I don't fear it. There's no church. No scriptures. No prayers. No rituals. Nothing to do with God, false or otherwise. Evolution has nothing to say about any God.

It is a fairyTale for adults

You said that already.

and there are absolutely no facts anywhere supporting it, even the scientists (non-Christian scientists) have been doubting it for years now!

Like who?

If there are any claims to be considered outrageous it's the deception of evolution!

So you say. Care to elaborate?

God almighty is control of this universe and that is by no means an outrageous claim, just read the book, if you have one!

I have one. It says the earth has four corners and is supported by pillars. Do you believe that too?

chickenman · Jun 21, 2002

franklin, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

What is evolution?

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