Why does the Torah scare so many people?

Quaffer said:

I understand your point. However, it still appears anti-Messianic.

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I prefer to view it as pro truth. Sometimes it troubles the Christians, other times the Messianics. I have to speak what I believe. I know that these comments may send Talmidim into a frenzy, and he will probably make all sorts of nasty statements against me. This is because he fancies himself as some kind of Hebrew roots guru. This will cause a chain reaction that will make everyone question whether I am truly messianic. This is typically what happens when someone does not like the facts when an opposing view, that goes against the herd is posted here. This will eventually get me removed from the forum. The concepts that are taught here, are so far from MJ that it is troubling to me, and some who have followed them have ended up denying Christ on this forum. The majority of the concepts taught here are Hebrew roots teachings, which have absolutely nothing to do with true Messianic Judaism. They are promoted mostly by non Jewish wannabees, who have errantly concluded that heritage will put someone in favor with God Almighty. I wrote an opinion paper about this a while back, and it can be viewed here:

http://www.seekgod.ca/highertruth.htm

well I hope that little exchange didn't cause my posts to be buried cus no one else answered ascribe's questions but me and even now I don't know if it was enough to satisfy so I was hoping for more imput from you guys as well....what do you think?

This thread has gotten so off topic. Higher Truth, why don't you just start your own thread to tell us that we've got it all wrong or whatever it is you're trying to say, Ok?

Apparently HT has a Messianic scroll icon, but you wouldn't know it to read his posts in this particular thread. I don't understand why though. I would love to have him clarify himself in a different thread.

Andy, Tish, Quaffer, Jgonz, everyone...

Please forgive me. I think we have been [bleeped] long enough. The readers of these posts deserve better than this. Lets just take a look at the "truth" that this person is "pro" about.

Higher Truth said:

And many of the chuch people would probably accuse me of being anti church, because I interrupt their "feelings", much like I do here sometimes.

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ERRR! Wrong. After clicking on your name and selecting "Find all posts by Higher Truth" it is apparent that you are always ANTI-something. I encourage everyone to do as I have done. This charade becomes clear quickly.

Higher Truth said:

It is not about learning to be a better Jew. It is all about Christ and His finished work.

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ERRR! Wrong. It is about learning the Hebraic and Jewish frames of reference, so that we will have a greater understanding of what the scriptures really say. It is about learning the political, religious, and social context of the culture in which they were written. It is about learning Hebraic poetry forms because about half of all scripture is poetry and knowing the proper form provides a tool to its proper interpretation. It is about learning a culture to have insight into its idiosyncrasies. It is about learning the languages and the idiomatic references. It is about learning the etymological drift that occurs when translations span not only multiple languages and multiple cultures, but doctrinal bias too.

Higher Truth said:

People realize the church has error, and then they flock to another movement that has just as much error. The Hebrew roots movement is one of those movements. It is non Jews thinking that they have to learn to be more Jewish to be a good believer.

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ERRR! Flashing RED lights. Warning! Glaring Error! The Hebrew Roots Movement IS the Messianic Jewish Movement. If you do not agree with its tenets or you think that it is just as much in error as any other Christian movement, there can only be one reason why you would: 1.) wear the Messianic Icon and 2.) hide it. I will leave the conclusions to the readers and the Moderators. A quick review of your posts in this and other forums should do the trick. You are the most "anti-Jewish" Messianic Jew I have ever had the misfortune of crossing paths with and I will pray for you - and all that come across you.

Higher Truth said:

In this process, many of them go into denial, drop Christ from the picture, and then drive straight into rabbinic Judaism.

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What factual basis do you have for this statement? What sources can you cite that do not rely on opinion and cultural bias? I’d wager none.

Higher Truth said:

It is not about being more Jewish. It is about foundational faith and understanding the finished work.

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Well you finally said something I can agree with. Faith is paramount. But to understand the finished work, you have to understand the foundational work. We are told to search the scriptures. It only make sense to do so in context. The only problem is that you have a limited understanding about a vast volume of scripture. You seem to have an even smaller understanding of the vast differences between the cultures and languages from which those volumes are sourced. You seem to have an even smaller capacity to empathize with those that would seek the truth of these matters. I personally would rate your efforts, at best, half vast.

Higher Truth said:

I see the links and the terminology that are thrown around on this forum. I know the so called teachers who have generated this thought process. Most of the people teaching the so called "Hebraic interpretation" of the scriptures aren't even Jewish.

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Well it makes sense that Gentiles would want to understand more about Jewish culture. Your basic, run-of-the-mill Jew is obviously already steeped in their own culture. Pardon me sir, but your bias is showing.

Higher Truth said:

I have watched many go from Charismatic, to Messianic, to a denial of Christ and then enter into a self styled form of Judaism.

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And how many in this forum deny Yeshua? Perhaps your efforts would be more suited to PMs to those you deem "at risk".

Higher Truth said:

I think that it would be good for some here to re-read the book of Hebrews.

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Pot meet Kettle, Kettle meet Pot.

talmidim said:

Andy, Tish, Quaffer, Jgonz, everyone...

Please forgive me. I think we have been [bleeped] long enough. The readers of these posts deserve better than this. Lets just take a look at the "truth" that this person is "pro" about.

ERRR! Wrong. After clicking on your name and selecting "Find all posts by Higher Truth" it is apparent that you are always ANTI-something. I encourage everyone to do as I have done. This charade becomes clear quickly.

ERRR! Wrong. It is about learning the Hebraic and Jewish frames of reference, so that we will have a greater understanding of what the scriptures really say. It is about learning the political, religious, and social context of the culture in which they were written. It is about learning Hebraic poetry forms because about half of all scripture is poetry and knowing the proper form provides a tool to its proper interpretation. It is about learning a culture to have insight into its idiosyncrasies. It is about learning the languages and the idiomatic references. It is about learning the etymological drift that occurs when translations span not only multiple languages and multiple cultures, but doctrinal bias too.

ERRR! Flashing RED lights. Warning! Glaring Error! The Hebrew Roots Movement IS the Messianic Jewish Movement. If you do not agree with its tenets or you think that it is just as much in error as any other Christian movement, there can only be one reason why you would: 1.) wear the Messianic Icon and 2.) hide it. I will leave the conclusions to the readers and the Moderators. A quick review of your posts in this and other forums should do the trick. You are the most "anti-Jewish" Messianic Jew I have ever had the misfortune of crossing paths with and I will pray for you - and all that come across you.

What factual basis do you have for this statement? What sources can you cite that do not rely on opinion and cultural bias? I’d wager none.

Well you finally said something I can agree with. Faith is paramount. But to understand the finished work, you have to understand the foundational work. We are told to search the scriptures. It only make sense to fo so in context. The only problem is that you have a limited understanding about a vast volume of scripture. You seem to have an even smaller understanding of the vast differences between the cultures and languages from which those volumes are sourced. You seem to have an even smaller capacity to empathize with those that would seek the truth of these matters. I personally would rate your efforts, at best, half vast.

Well it makes sense that Gentiles would want to understand more about Jewish culture. Your basic, run-of-the-mill Jew is obviously already steeped in their own culture. Pardon me sir, but your bias is showing.

And how many in this forum deny Yeshua? Perhaps your efforts would be more suited to PMs to those you deem "at risk".

Pot meet Kettle, Kettle meet Pot.

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Thank you...
the waters were getting rather murky here..you have cleared them greatly

Ascribe said:

I would go somewhere along the lines of Galatians 3:28

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I said :

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:10 10 For as many as are of the works of the law (idiom for Jews that were requiring conversion works ("hoops"and carrots") for salvation, this is describing a people not the Torah itself) are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Galatians 3:13-14 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:21 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Galatians 3:28 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:17 17 They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them.
Galatians 4:21 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? (again this is an idiom for a group of people not a verse against God's Torah)
Galatians 4:29 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

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I know we were never taught to see this as christians, but as messianics we see this as clear as day...Paul's beef was not with the Law we refer to as the Torah(first Five Books, 10 Commandments, 613,ect.) His Beef was with the MAN- Made Torah that put fences around God's word...The biggest obstacle being the many laws involved with Conversion to Judiasm...That whole idea didn't come from God.His Salvation was always by faith not by works, but Man made laws had put up so many Hoops to jump thru, and many Carrots to chase in order go GET SAVED, and Paul was trying in every letter he wrote, to break the chains, not of God's Word, but of these men !Yes following after God's Word was wonderful BUT NOT FOR SALVATION, that's what Paul's beef was...

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Ascribe said:

and Romans 14:17.... You wouldn't tell me that I am going to hell / not clean in the Lord because of pork, or shrimp, or such foods, right?

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I said:

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
Romans 14:2 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
Romans 14:3 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
Romans 14:12 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:14-15 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
Romans 14:17 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:19-21 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

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does this answer your question, if not maybe we can discuss it further...

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NKJ 1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him. 4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

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So it seems that eating a meal offered to Idols was a no no acording to the Man Made laws Jews had inforced...and from what I understand, all meat sold in the marketplace was offered to Idols and blessed before it went to market so; that could make a nervous Jew turn vegetarian and could easily turn a confident Jew into a harrassing jerk (see people like that every day)... But I checked every scripture and never saw a single list of specifically forbidden unkosher meats mentioned at all in the NT (gentiles may have had a taste for pork and shellfish but I'm sure they also sold chicken and beef cuts too)and since we cannot identify these meats as kosher or not, we must assume them kosher but offered to idols before being sold...

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Shalom Tish,

I think it was Wags that gave a link to a Tim Hegg article on the first century understanding of the term "law". It was brought out that "law" in scripture means (in most cases) both Torah and the "oral traditions". In some cases it means Torah and in some cases it means oral traditions and in some cases it means both. That is one of the reasons that the Pauline epistles are so difficult to decipher for the uninitiated. I think you are making some salient points by showing in context, what "law" Paul was talking about.

Thank you Talmidim, and thank you Tishri for getting us back on track.

quote:

ERRR! Flashing RED lights. Warning! Glaring Error! The Hebrew Roots Movement IS the Messianic Jewish Movement.

I have to disagree with that - Eddie Chumney, Michael Rood, etc have absolutely nothing to do with the Messianic Jewish movement, but are considered huge players in the Hebrew Roots Movement. If you contact any of the governing bodies of the MJ movement like the MJAA, UMJC they will clarify their position for you.

I think he meant that the Messianic movement is based in finding the Hebrew roots of our faith, not necessarily the "actual" Hebrew Roots Movement. At least that's the way I took his post....

But I disagree that Eddie Chumney, et al, have nothing to do with the Messianic movement. Sure, there are some things in these Messianic ministries that I raise my eyebrows about, but the basics are that these ministries are trying to help Christians find the Hebrew-ness of Christianity, and help clear up centuries of error that's been taught in Jesus' name.

And by the same token, MJAA, UMJC, etc. have things going on with them that I don't think are right either....

I believe in swallowing the good and spitting out the bad with ALL of them.

baraqemet said:

quote:
If you contact any of the governing bodies of the MJ movement like the MJAA, UMJC they will clarify their position for you.

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Messianic Judaism is a congregational movement and as such there are no governing bodies. The MJAA, UMJC etc. are simply large messianic organizations - NOT governing bodies.

baraqemet said:

quote:

ERRR! Flashing RED lights. Warning! Glaring Error! The Hebrew Roots Movement IS the Messianic Jewish Movement.

I have to disagree with that - Eddie Chumney, Michael Rood, etc have absolutely nothing to do with the Messianic Jewish movement, but are considered huge players in the Hebrew Roots Movement. If you contact any of the governing bodies of the MJ movement like the MJAA, UMJC they will clarify their position for you.

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ERRR! Wrong! If you had read the previous post, you would have seen that the reference to the Hebrew Roots movement was a generalization about Messianics. This is where the hair splitting begins. Where that movement has diverged is of little relevence or consequence to the point I was rebutting.

While I do not agree with all that the Chumney's and the Rood's of the world have to say, I will just as quickly tell you that the MJAA and/or the UMJC certainly do not speak for all Messianic Congregations. For that matter, niether do the Southern Baptists which have a sizable Messianic affiliation. I can quite accurately say that the Messianic Movement grew out of a desire of many Christians to seek out the Hebrew Roots of Christianity and a desire for independance from the many "doctrine police" that pass themselves off as denominations instead of the business franchises that they truly are. This is not what has occured in EVERY case; so this is why I chose to let the distinction pass in the first place.

While this is an interesting topic, it has little or nothing to do with the OP. If you wish to thrash or trash my my take on Messianic vs. Hebrew Roots, please start a thread. I would be interested to see exactly how many show up.

That would be an intersting thread.......I wasn't aware there was a difference in Hebrew roots vs. Messianic.

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There isn't a difference Andyman, but apparently a some MJAA or UMJC people think there is...

Shalom all,

I want to follow up on the general drift of Tish and others in their responses. In regard to the "kneejerk" that many of us encounter when discussing Torah, I feel it can be traced to a basic misunderstanding of terms. I was recently banned from another "Christian" website for my views on this topic. After a lot of soul-searching, I came to this conclusion.

There is great confusion about what the first century church meant when they used or heard the general term "law". Scripture reveals a discrepancy between what the church teaches today and what was originally meant by this term. Let’s take a look at some of the popular terms that surround this issue. Traditions, Oral Torah, Halachah and Customs are all words or phrases that have in one way or another been associated with "the Law". Barry W. Holtz, notes on p.130 of his book, Back to the Sources, 1984:

Ancient rabbis taught that the revelation granted to Moses had been delivered in two forms, a smaller revelation in writing and the larger one kept orally. This 'Oral Torah' had been transmitted faithfully by the leaders of each generation to their successors, by Moses to Joshua, and then to the elders, then to the prophets, to the men of the Great Assembly, to the leaders of the Pharisees, and finally to the earliest rabbis. Thus only these rabbis knew the whole Torah - written and oral - and only such knowledge could qualify anyone for legitimate leadership over the people of Israel.

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This excerpt comes from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halachah

Wikipedia said:

Halakha (

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Wikipedia said:

Hebrew: הלכה; also transliterated as Halakhah, Halacha, Halachah) is the collective corpus of Jewish rabbinic law, custom and tradition. Like the religious laws in many other cultures, Judaism classically drew no distinction in its laws between religious and non-religious life. Hence, Halakha guides not only religious practices and beliefs, but numerous aspects of day-to-day life.

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We should remember that halachah is the result of interpretation. Just to give you a frame of reference, please note that what is termed "Oral Torah" is 50 times the size of the Written Torah. The only trouble I see with Mr. Holtz view is that these traditions are not always faithfully transmitted. These "traditions" are the result of debate and the majority viewpoint is often what is "faithfully" transmitted to the subsequent generation. As Yeshua and others have pointed out; not all of the Oral Torah agrees with the Torah and hence, the rub. But that is not the focus of this particular post. I just want to illustrate that there is a difference and how it affects our understanding of the term "law" in the Brit Chadashah and specifically the Pauline Epistles.

Tim Hegg gives a very good treatment of the subject in a four-part article entitled, "Traditions" found here: http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/tradition.pdf

Tim Hegg said:

Here, then, we discover an important fact: the 1st century Jewish communities viewed the written Torah and the oral Torah as a unified body of halachah rather than as two distinct entities. This is not to say that everyone agreed upon halachah, for we all are aware of the many disputes that took place. But what this brief look at the word "custom" has shown is that in the mind of the 1st century Jewish communities, received halachah formed a single body of Torah, whether it was received from written or oral Torah.

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What is conveyed as "Torah" in this article is most often found as "law" in the Pauline Epistles. So what we have here is a basis for confusion. Paul makes a number of statements about the "law", some of which may seem contradictory, or at the very least, confusing. It is incumbent upon the reader to decipher his intent based on context and a familiarity with Paul’s writing style. This is further complicated by his use of Greek translators, whose "style" seems to change with the translator, the topic and the intended audience. Little wonder that doctrinal error has crept in over the centuries. This stuff is difficult to decipher – but not impossible.

Unfortunately, the church has chosen to err on the side of convenience rather than caution. Compounding this error is human nature: It is easier to parrot what we hear than it is to dig into the scriptures and find out for ourselves. The corporate body of the church arrives at a paradigm and then phenomenon such as "paradigm filtering" take place. This is where a worldview dominates an individuals’ ability to interpret information.

Paradigms are broken under extraordinary circumstances. An intellectual revolution occurs when a person encounters anomalies which cannot be explained by the universally accepted paradigm. This is termed a "paradigm shift" and this is, in my opinion, the difference between the Torah observant and the mainstream Christian. There has been a shift in the thinking of some Christians based on a broader understanding of the contradictory use of the term "law" used in the Pauline Epistles.

In summary, it is my position that Paul meant Torah in some instances of the term "law" in his letters and traditions or customs in others. He left it to the reader to decipher. This is not a big jump when we consider that Paul was writing to students that he knew intimately and had tutored over extended periods (years). He fully expected them to know what he meant to say by the context of his usage rather than explicit terms. This readily rectifies any apparent contradictions between the teachings of Yeshua and Paul. And it is a much more reasonable approach than resorting to the rather weak argument that everything changed at Yeshua's death and He simply didn't think it necessary to tell the Gentiles about it...

Don't be misled Andy, there is a difference:


http://www.mjaa.org/engine.cfm?i=2&sl=12


The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), founded in 1915, is the largest association of Messianic Jews in the world. Its purpose is threefold:

To testify to the large and growing number of Jewish people who believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the promised Jewish Messiah and Savior of the world;
To bring together Jews and non-Jews who have a shared vision for Jewish revival; and Most importantly, to introduce our Jewish brothers and sisters to the Jewish Messiah Yeshua.

Why is this necessary? For many centuries Jews have frequently suffered at the hands of those calling themselves followers of Jesus. At the same time, the "Good News" or gospel of Yeshua was often presented without mention of this gospel's roots in God's relationship with His Jewish people throughout Scripture, and His promise of salvation through the Jewish Messiah. These factors lead many Jews to assume that to follow Yeshua is to leave the faith of their fathers and become non-Jews. The MJAA has worked to combat this misperception for nearly 90 years.
Most MJAA members attend independent Messianic Jewish congregations and synagogues. The MJAA is also affiliated with Messianic Jewish alliances in fifteen countries, including Israel.



UMJC video:


http://www.umjc.org/main/mulitimedia/umjcvideo/wmv256k.wvx



Between the MJAA, IAMCS (MJAA affiliate) and the UMJC there are hundreds of congregations that are under their umbrella. They hold multiple conferences yearly, and thousands attend. The MJAA has been around for almost 90 years. How many congregations does Michael Rood have under his 'ministry'? I didn't hear of him until 5 or so years ago. Same with Eddie Chumney. At one time they were both Christian gentiles.

baraqemet~ Not to be snotty here, but I attended a MJAA congregation for awhile and it was made abundantly clear that as a non-Jewish believer I was Definately not the same rank as my girlfriend who was. I've since learned this is typical of a lot of MJAA congregations. And this was nearly 20 years ago, so it's been going on for a Long time.

There is Not supposed to be ANY difference between Jewish believers and Gentile believers in a congregation. NONE. We are a new creature in Christ, and all that...

I have not read any of Michael Rood's stuff, so I have no idea what's going on with him. But, I have read some of Eddie Chumney's material. He does not claim to be Jewish. He is Messianic, and he's a very indepth teacher. His website's name is Hebraic Roots of Christianity. He does endorse the 2 House teaching, but from everything I've read it NEVER says that all Gentiles are Ephraim, so that misunderstood argument doesn't count.

MJAA may be huge and have hundreds of congregations within it's umbrella, but is that always the best way to go?

I don't understand how anyone could be afraid of the torah.It is the best book ever written!