Proof positive there is a God
- Thread starter GodsSamus
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Army of Juan said:
Yes, but some of the articles on this site have not been brought up on the Christian Forum site.
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ImmortalTechnique said:
If you call people biased because they don't agree with you, maybe YOU'RE the biased one.
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NamesAreHardToPick
All That You Can Leave Behind
GodsSamus said:
That is not proof. Proof is mathematical in basis, that is evidence. There's a huge difference. And those are all PRATTs anyway.
If you really want to get into philosophic arguments for the existence of God, I would suggest Human Consciousness and the Existence of God by S. G. Smith. Unlike the arguments you have listed, it is more complete and doesn't base itself on refuted science.
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Lord Emsworth
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SPACE DUST ON THE MOON
Space dust accumulates on the surface of the moon at the rate of about one inch for every ten thousand years. Astronauts found an average of one-half inch, just about what you would expect in six thousand years.
Space dust accumulates on the surface of the moon at the rate of about one inch for every ten thousand years. Astronauts found an average of one-half inch, just about what you would expect in six thousand years.
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Split Rock
Conflation of Blathers
from the website you linked:GodsSamus said:
Where does it present evidence (even bad evidence) for the existance of God???
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Mechanical Bliss
Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.
1. Stop repeatedly posting arguments that have been disproved for your benefit specifically in the past numerous times...that is, if you want anyone here to take you seriously.
2. It is a non sequitur to argue that the age of the earth determines whether there is "proof" of a deity's existence.
2. It is a non sequitur to argue that the age of the earth determines whether there is "proof" of a deity's existence.
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ImmortalTechnique
Senior Veteran
SPIN OF THE EARTH
Earth's rotation is slowing at the rate of one thousandth of a second per day. At this rate a billion years ago it would have been spinning so fast that centrifugal force would have caused it to fly apart. The spin of the Earth is gradually slowing down and shows that the Earth cannot be more than a few thousand years old.
refuted before
CIVILIZATIONS AND WRITING
How can it be that if man stopped evolving 100,000 years ago, he only learned how to form civilizations and write within the last 5-10,000 years? Also, the oldest civilizations appear around the world about the same time, and all were already very advanced, building marvelous structures (like the pyramids). There is no indication of a general evolution of civilization.
ridiculous and proufoundly refuted
POPULATION GROWTH
Realistic population growth formulas, accounting for wars, etc., give several thousand years as needed to produce the current world population (not millions of years). The rate of population growth has been steady for the time that we have records. The present six billion is the right number of people to have multiplied from the eight survivors of the universal flood about 4400 years ago. If man had been around for millions of years, the same growth rate would have produced 150,000 people per square inch of land surface.
completely idiotic... their population models are not realistic in ANY sense of the word
MOON MOVING AWAY FROM EARTH
The rate at which the Moon is moving away from the Earth (due to tidal friction) places a limit on the age of the Moon of a few thousand years. If it were millions of years old, it would have had to start very close to the earth, causing ocean tides so severe it would have drowned everything on land twice a day.
also been refuted on this forum
SPACE DUST ON THE MOON
Space dust accumulates on the surface of the moon at the rate of about one inch for every ten thousand years. Astronauts found an average of one-half inch, just about what you would expect in six thousand years.
a lie that was refuted back in the 70s... to continue using it is not ignorance, it is a lie
HELIUM IN ATMOSPHERE
Accumulation of helium in the atmosphere implies a maximum age of no more than 10,000 years. Buildup of radiocarbon in the atmosphere would produce all of the world's radiocarbon in only several thousand years.
refuted on this forum
MUTATIONS
Calculations based on the gradually increasing negative effect of mutation on living organisms indicate that life forms cannot be more than several thousand years old and still be as free from defects as they are today.
i'd like to see the calculations
EARTH'S MAGNETIC FIELD
Earth's magnetic field is getting weaker. At the rate of deterioration, no such field would exist if the Earth were as old as evolutionists believe. The measured decay rate of the Earth's magnetic field indicates that life would have been impossible on Earth more than about 20,000 years ago (due to the heat that would have been generated).
you've been told about this one time and time again...
POLONIUM HALOS
Dr. Robert Gentry Makes Amazing Discovery!!! Polonium halos (ring patterns formed by radioactive decay) found in granite, the thick bedrock underlying all continents, shows that the granite came into existence in solid form in less than three minutes. What is interesting about this is that the isotope Polonium 218 has a half-life of 3 minutes!! So if you find a radiohalo of Polonium 218 within any sample of granite, that granite HAD to form within less than 21 minutes!!
Now this is really interesting!! The isotope Polonium 214 has a half-life of 164 microseconds, This means that the granites ABSOLUTELY HAD to form in less than .001148 of ONE SECOND!!! It also means that in order for the granites, the basement or foundation rocks of the planet Earth, to have formed in less than one second, that the entire Earth had to come into existence in less than one second!This leaves us with only ONE conclusion, which is, that when the Bible says that Jesus spoke and the universe came into existence, ("ex-nihilo" means from nothing), the Bible is telling the Truth! The radiohalos within the granites give irrefutable, physical evidence of this!
(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.(Heb 11:3) ...the worlds were framed by the word of God.
try reading up on these halos before you make (or accept) these completely ludicrious claims. start here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html
PLANETS ARE LOSING HEAT
The planets are losing heat. If they had been formed millions of years ago, they would have no internal heat left given the present rate of heat loss. If a hot cup of coffee were left standing for 400 years, it would have no internal heat left.
okay, I remember my creationist days, and this is copied DIRECTLY from Hovind (even the lame joke about the coffee cup) Besides, if the coffee cup had a radioactive core, it would probably still be warm
SATURN IS LOSING ITS RINGS
The planet Saturn is losing its rings. They are slowly moving away. If the planet were millions of years old, the material in the rings would have dissipated long ago.
who said it always had to have rings? besides, i'd like to see some EVIDENCE besides just a claim
COMETS
As comets travel through space they continually shed some of their material. Any comet more than 10,000 years old would have long since disintegrated into nothing.
haha... they do come from somewhere, dummy
PETROLEUM - OIL
Petroleum in the ground is under tremendous pressure. The rocks that contain it are porous. If the oil had been there for millions of years the pressure would have dissipated long ago.
Studies show that any pressure built should be dissipated, bled off into surrounding rocks, within a few thousand years. The excessive pressures found in oil beds, therefore, refute the notion that their age is millions of years old. This gives evidence for the youthful age (less than 10,000 years) of the rock formations and the entrapped oil.
you're really going to have to show some of the "calculations" etc. that you are using for this... since I have talked to people who actually find and dig up oil and none of them accept a ridiculous young earth model
OLDEST LIVING PLANTS
The oldest living plants, the bristle-cone pine tree and the coral reefs only go back about 4500 years. If earth had existed for millions of years, why aren't there older plants still alive?
what the hell kind of argument IS this? there are dead things that are much older than that...
OCEAN SALT
Now at 3.8 percent, the salinity of the oceans would have been much greater. The present rate of increase points back to a beginning about six thousand years ago.
that's been refuted here as well. In fact, the sediments in the Ocean DISPROVE a young earth model... where's Frumious Bandersnatch when you need him
STALACTITES IN CAVES
Evolutionists point to stalactites in caves as proof of an old earth, but there are stalactites in the basement of the Lincoln Memorial several feet long that have grown in less than 100 years.
what's your point? just because some can be made quickly doens't mean they all were. besides, the age of the earth isn't assumed because of stalactites, it is concluded because of evidence
EVIDENCE THAT THE EARTH-SUN SYSTEM WAS DESIGNED BY GOD
Evidence that the earth-sun system was designed by God far outweighs any possibility that it all just happened to come together by mere chance. We will now consider a few features of the earth-sun system which appear to be specially and very carefully designed for the unique purpose of supporting life.
this should be good
EARTH IS POSITIONED AT JUST THE RIGHT DISTANCE
The earth is positioned at just the right distance from the sun so that we receive exactly the proper amount of heat to support life. The other planets of our solar system are either too close to the sun (too hot) or else too far (too cold) to sustain life.
and thus live wouldnt' have developed (or would be VERY different than we know it)
ROTATION OF THE EARTH
Any appreciable change in the rate of rotation of the earth would make life impossible. For example, if the earth were to rotate at one-tenth its present rate, all plant life would either be burned to a crisp during the day or frozen at night.
but it doesn't... what is your point? if it WAS like that, then life wouldn't have developed
TEMPERATURE VARIATIONS
Temperature variations are kept within reasonable limits due to the nearly circular orbit of the earth around the sun.
you'd think an all powerful god could do a little better, though. sure we can survive, but (to steal from douglas adams a bit) it is a little ridiculous that an all powerful god would create a world where most of the people have to wrap themselves in dead animal skins to avoid freezing and half an orbit later find their skin bubbling and peeling off
A GREENHOUSE EFFECT
Temperature extremes are further moderated by the water vapor and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that produce a greenhouse effect.
what's your point?
MOON IS JUST THE RIGHT DISTANCE
The moon revolves around the earth at a distance of about 240,000 miles causing harmless tides on the earth. If the moon were located 1/5th of this distance away, the continents would be completely submerged twice a day!
and life would never have developed beyond marine life and maybe some hardy amphibians... the odd gravity probably would have made some cool looking huge sea monsters though
THICKNESS OF THE EARTH'S CRUST
The thickness of the earth's crust and the depth of the oceans appear to be carefully designed. Increases in thickness or depth of only a few feet would so drastically alter the absorption of free oxygen and carbon dioxide that plant and animal life could not exist.
and so it wouldn't...
EARTH'S AXIS IS TILTED 23 1/2 DEGREES
The earth's axis is tilted 23 1/2 degrees from the perpendicular to the plane of its orbit. This tilting, combined with the earth's revolution around the sun, causes our seasons, which are absolutely essential for the raising of food supplies.
only because the plants and animals developed on a world where the axis was tilted...
OZONE LAYER
The earth's atmosphere (ozone layer) serves as a protective shield from lethal solar ultraviolet radiation, which would otherwise destroy all life.
in fact, it would never have started in the first place, which means you wouldn't be able to be here making these ridiculous claims
EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE
The earth's atmosphere also serves to protect the earth from approximately 20 million meteors that enter it each day at speeds of about 30 miles per second! Without this crucial protection the danger to life would be immense.
PERFECT PHYSICAL SIZE AND MASS
The earth is the perfect physical size and mass to support life, affording a careful balance between gravitational forces (essential for holding water in an atmosphere) and atmospheric pressure.
NITROGEN AND OXYGEN
The two primary constituents of the earth's atmosphere are nitrogen (78 percent) and oxygen (20 percent). This delicate and critical ratio is essential to all life forms.
EARTH'S MAGNETIC FIELD
The earth's magnetic field provides important protection from harmful cosmic radiation.
WATER
The earth is uniquely blessed with a bountiful supply of water, which is the key substance of life due to its remarkable and essential physical properties._________________Don Hatcher
okay it is no longer neccesary to do these one by one. all these last few arguments are essentially: things live, therefore God exists. completely moronic
OF COURSE life developed on a planet where life was possible... i would think that life on a planet where life is NOT possible would be better evidence of a magical sky fairy creating and sustaining things.
the argument that god designed it because we can live in it is stupid... we live in it because we can live in it. Life on this planet fits with seasons and all the other situations because it evolved on a planet that had those conditions... if it didn't fit, it didn't survive... these arguments are COMPLETELY meaningless and I wish I hadn't taken the time to bother with them
Earth's rotation is slowing at the rate of one thousandth of a second per day. At this rate a billion years ago it would have been spinning so fast that centrifugal force would have caused it to fly apart. The spin of the Earth is gradually slowing down and shows that the Earth cannot be more than a few thousand years old.
refuted before
CIVILIZATIONS AND WRITING
How can it be that if man stopped evolving 100,000 years ago, he only learned how to form civilizations and write within the last 5-10,000 years? Also, the oldest civilizations appear around the world about the same time, and all were already very advanced, building marvelous structures (like the pyramids). There is no indication of a general evolution of civilization.
ridiculous and proufoundly refuted
POPULATION GROWTH
Realistic population growth formulas, accounting for wars, etc., give several thousand years as needed to produce the current world population (not millions of years). The rate of population growth has been steady for the time that we have records. The present six billion is the right number of people to have multiplied from the eight survivors of the universal flood about 4400 years ago. If man had been around for millions of years, the same growth rate would have produced 150,000 people per square inch of land surface.
completely idiotic... their population models are not realistic in ANY sense of the word
MOON MOVING AWAY FROM EARTH
The rate at which the Moon is moving away from the Earth (due to tidal friction) places a limit on the age of the Moon of a few thousand years. If it were millions of years old, it would have had to start very close to the earth, causing ocean tides so severe it would have drowned everything on land twice a day.
also been refuted on this forum
SPACE DUST ON THE MOON
Space dust accumulates on the surface of the moon at the rate of about one inch for every ten thousand years. Astronauts found an average of one-half inch, just about what you would expect in six thousand years.
a lie that was refuted back in the 70s... to continue using it is not ignorance, it is a lie
HELIUM IN ATMOSPHERE
Accumulation of helium in the atmosphere implies a maximum age of no more than 10,000 years. Buildup of radiocarbon in the atmosphere would produce all of the world's radiocarbon in only several thousand years.
refuted on this forum
MUTATIONS
Calculations based on the gradually increasing negative effect of mutation on living organisms indicate that life forms cannot be more than several thousand years old and still be as free from defects as they are today.
i'd like to see the calculations
EARTH'S MAGNETIC FIELD
Earth's magnetic field is getting weaker. At the rate of deterioration, no such field would exist if the Earth were as old as evolutionists believe. The measured decay rate of the Earth's magnetic field indicates that life would have been impossible on Earth more than about 20,000 years ago (due to the heat that would have been generated).
you've been told about this one time and time again...
POLONIUM HALOS
Dr. Robert Gentry Makes Amazing Discovery!!! Polonium halos (ring patterns formed by radioactive decay) found in granite, the thick bedrock underlying all continents, shows that the granite came into existence in solid form in less than three minutes. What is interesting about this is that the isotope Polonium 218 has a half-life of 3 minutes!! So if you find a radiohalo of Polonium 218 within any sample of granite, that granite HAD to form within less than 21 minutes!!
Now this is really interesting!! The isotope Polonium 214 has a half-life of 164 microseconds, This means that the granites ABSOLUTELY HAD to form in less than .001148 of ONE SECOND!!! It also means that in order for the granites, the basement or foundation rocks of the planet Earth, to have formed in less than one second, that the entire Earth had to come into existence in less than one second!This leaves us with only ONE conclusion, which is, that when the Bible says that Jesus spoke and the universe came into existence, ("ex-nihilo" means from nothing), the Bible is telling the Truth! The radiohalos within the granites give irrefutable, physical evidence of this!
(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.(Heb 11:3) ...the worlds were framed by the word of God.
try reading up on these halos before you make (or accept) these completely ludicrious claims. start here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html
PLANETS ARE LOSING HEAT
The planets are losing heat. If they had been formed millions of years ago, they would have no internal heat left given the present rate of heat loss. If a hot cup of coffee were left standing for 400 years, it would have no internal heat left.
okay, I remember my creationist days, and this is copied DIRECTLY from Hovind (even the lame joke about the coffee cup) Besides, if the coffee cup had a radioactive core, it would probably still be warm
SATURN IS LOSING ITS RINGS
The planet Saturn is losing its rings. They are slowly moving away. If the planet were millions of years old, the material in the rings would have dissipated long ago.
who said it always had to have rings? besides, i'd like to see some EVIDENCE besides just a claim
COMETS
As comets travel through space they continually shed some of their material. Any comet more than 10,000 years old would have long since disintegrated into nothing.
haha... they do come from somewhere, dummy
PETROLEUM - OIL
Petroleum in the ground is under tremendous pressure. The rocks that contain it are porous. If the oil had been there for millions of years the pressure would have dissipated long ago.
Studies show that any pressure built should be dissipated, bled off into surrounding rocks, within a few thousand years. The excessive pressures found in oil beds, therefore, refute the notion that their age is millions of years old. This gives evidence for the youthful age (less than 10,000 years) of the rock formations and the entrapped oil.
you're really going to have to show some of the "calculations" etc. that you are using for this... since I have talked to people who actually find and dig up oil and none of them accept a ridiculous young earth model
OLDEST LIVING PLANTS
The oldest living plants, the bristle-cone pine tree and the coral reefs only go back about 4500 years. If earth had existed for millions of years, why aren't there older plants still alive?
what the hell kind of argument IS this? there are dead things that are much older than that...
OCEAN SALT
Now at 3.8 percent, the salinity of the oceans would have been much greater. The present rate of increase points back to a beginning about six thousand years ago.
that's been refuted here as well. In fact, the sediments in the Ocean DISPROVE a young earth model... where's Frumious Bandersnatch when you need him
STALACTITES IN CAVES
Evolutionists point to stalactites in caves as proof of an old earth, but there are stalactites in the basement of the Lincoln Memorial several feet long that have grown in less than 100 years.
what's your point? just because some can be made quickly doens't mean they all were. besides, the age of the earth isn't assumed because of stalactites, it is concluded because of evidence
EVIDENCE THAT THE EARTH-SUN SYSTEM WAS DESIGNED BY GOD
Evidence that the earth-sun system was designed by God far outweighs any possibility that it all just happened to come together by mere chance. We will now consider a few features of the earth-sun system which appear to be specially and very carefully designed for the unique purpose of supporting life.
this should be good
EARTH IS POSITIONED AT JUST THE RIGHT DISTANCE
The earth is positioned at just the right distance from the sun so that we receive exactly the proper amount of heat to support life. The other planets of our solar system are either too close to the sun (too hot) or else too far (too cold) to sustain life.
and thus live wouldnt' have developed (or would be VERY different than we know it)
ROTATION OF THE EARTH
Any appreciable change in the rate of rotation of the earth would make life impossible. For example, if the earth were to rotate at one-tenth its present rate, all plant life would either be burned to a crisp during the day or frozen at night.
but it doesn't... what is your point? if it WAS like that, then life wouldn't have developed
TEMPERATURE VARIATIONS
Temperature variations are kept within reasonable limits due to the nearly circular orbit of the earth around the sun.
you'd think an all powerful god could do a little better, though. sure we can survive, but (to steal from douglas adams a bit) it is a little ridiculous that an all powerful god would create a world where most of the people have to wrap themselves in dead animal skins to avoid freezing and half an orbit later find their skin bubbling and peeling off
A GREENHOUSE EFFECT
Temperature extremes are further moderated by the water vapor and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that produce a greenhouse effect.
what's your point?
MOON IS JUST THE RIGHT DISTANCE
The moon revolves around the earth at a distance of about 240,000 miles causing harmless tides on the earth. If the moon were located 1/5th of this distance away, the continents would be completely submerged twice a day!
and life would never have developed beyond marine life and maybe some hardy amphibians... the odd gravity probably would have made some cool looking huge sea monsters though
THICKNESS OF THE EARTH'S CRUST
The thickness of the earth's crust and the depth of the oceans appear to be carefully designed. Increases in thickness or depth of only a few feet would so drastically alter the absorption of free oxygen and carbon dioxide that plant and animal life could not exist.
and so it wouldn't...
EARTH'S AXIS IS TILTED 23 1/2 DEGREES
The earth's axis is tilted 23 1/2 degrees from the perpendicular to the plane of its orbit. This tilting, combined with the earth's revolution around the sun, causes our seasons, which are absolutely essential for the raising of food supplies.
only because the plants and animals developed on a world where the axis was tilted...
OZONE LAYER
The earth's atmosphere (ozone layer) serves as a protective shield from lethal solar ultraviolet radiation, which would otherwise destroy all life.
in fact, it would never have started in the first place, which means you wouldn't be able to be here making these ridiculous claims
EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE
The earth's atmosphere also serves to protect the earth from approximately 20 million meteors that enter it each day at speeds of about 30 miles per second! Without this crucial protection the danger to life would be immense.
PERFECT PHYSICAL SIZE AND MASS
The earth is the perfect physical size and mass to support life, affording a careful balance between gravitational forces (essential for holding water in an atmosphere) and atmospheric pressure.
NITROGEN AND OXYGEN
The two primary constituents of the earth's atmosphere are nitrogen (78 percent) and oxygen (20 percent). This delicate and critical ratio is essential to all life forms.
EARTH'S MAGNETIC FIELD
The earth's magnetic field provides important protection from harmful cosmic radiation.
WATER
The earth is uniquely blessed with a bountiful supply of water, which is the key substance of life due to its remarkable and essential physical properties._________________Don Hatcher
okay it is no longer neccesary to do these one by one. all these last few arguments are essentially: things live, therefore God exists. completely moronic
OF COURSE life developed on a planet where life was possible... i would think that life on a planet where life is NOT possible would be better evidence of a magical sky fairy creating and sustaining things.
the argument that god designed it because we can live in it is stupid... we live in it because we can live in it. Life on this planet fits with seasons and all the other situations because it evolved on a planet that had those conditions... if it didn't fit, it didn't survive... these arguments are COMPLETELY meaningless and I wish I hadn't taken the time to bother with them
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Ok, first of all, anyone who has taken high school physics (like me, for instance) can tell you that "centrifugal force" does not actually exist. Go to http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/circles/U6L1d.html for more. Secondly, as http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE011.html will tell you, the slowdown rate of the rotation is not a constant and still allows for billions of years.
Man never "stopped evolving". Reading and writing are not actually evolved genetic abilities, they are using the human brain in ways that it was not originally intended to be used. If you look at a brainscan while someone is reading or writing, you see it light up all over the board. As for building great things, humans had been building things for a long time before the pyramids. The continued evolution of the human species is less subject to natural selection because of our civilization, but it is still occurring.
The current population growth rate is unusually high. It was much lower in the past. The era of the black plague is a good example. Using the current rate would be a serious error. These "population growth" arguments also fail to take into account that if the population started in 4400 B.C. with 8 people, many important events and places that were said to have hundreds of thousands of people would only have a few thousand.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE110.html. The moon is receding at 3.8 centimeters per year, which is consistent with a time frame of billions of years. Also, tidal friction would have been less in the past because of the different arrangement of the continents.
Where did this rate come from? Dust accumulates on the moon at approximately 840 tons per year, which is consistent with an old earth. I could not find the rate in inches per 10,000 years.
The escape of helium into the atmosphere and it's ionization along magnetic lines accounts for the extra helium produced over billions of years.
There is no "gradually increasing negative effect". Most mutations are neutral, and the few bad mutations do not survive in populations for long if they affect the rate of procreation. You yourself have numerous mutations in your genes, and you would probably consider yourself free enough from defects to live comfortably.
The magnetic field does not decay constantly, it reverses many times.
Bah, I suddenly got really tired. Someone else will have to finish them up. Really, GodsSamus, take a trip to TalkOrigins sometime, will you? ALL of these PRATTs are answered there.
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Jimmy The Hand
I Have Been Complexified!
My favorite pratt is the whole the Earth is designed perfectly for life (specifically man) blah blah blah.
So what does it say that humans can only permanently live in a thin sliver of the biosphere between sea level and about 12'000 feet? If it's so perfectly designed then why are we so limited in our environment? Why is over 90% of the biosphere not only unlivable for us but downright deadly?
I WANT SOME GILLS NOW, BABY!
So what does it say that humans can only permanently live in a thin sliver of the biosphere between sea level and about 12'000 feet? If it's so perfectly designed then why are we so limited in our environment? Why is over 90% of the biosphere not only unlivable for us but downright deadly?
I WANT SOME GILLS NOW, BABY!
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corvus_corax
Naclist Hierophant and Prophet
Now that your PRATTS have been refuted AGAIN, will you please be honest enough to say that they are wrong?GodsSamus said:
I expect such forthrightness from people who say they're trying to follow Jesus. It's called honesty, an admirable trait.
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