Working for the Jubilee!

TruelightUK · May 13, 2002

Following the resolutions made by the G8 nations at their Birmingham summit of 1998, some progress has been made towards the lifting of the burden of debt on the world's poorest countries, in response to 24.3 million signatures on the Jubilee 200 petition. 147 nations have now signed up to the 'Millenium Development Goals', aimed at halving the proportion of people living in poverty by 2015. I think we'd all agree this is a very laudable goal?

The British government has set a very positive lead towards securing significant levels of debt relief. However, the Jubilee Debt Campaign calculates that only 5% of unpayable debt has so far been cancelled, with promises of cancellation for only 15%. Yet a recent report shows that for the poorest countries of Africa to have any hope of meeting the Millenium Development Goals would require a 100% cancellation of their debt. How many of you would agree with me that this is a very sad reflection on the true committment of those signatory nations to their declared objectives?

If you feel strongly about this matter, then what can you do to influence the future? May I urge you, as the G8 leaders meet again in Canada on June 28th-27th this year, to write to your country's leaders highlighting the need for the process of debt cancellation to be taken more seriously and urgently if their committments to the Millenium Development Goals are to be realised.

Anthony

MARANATHA2002 · May 13, 2002

All this dept cancallation, wouldn't be at the expence of the American tax payer would it. Peace, but not yet.

TruelightUK · May 14, 2002

Originally posted by MARANATHA2002
All this dept cancallation, wouldn't be at the expence of the American tax payer would it.

Oh No!?! God forbid that any American should face the prospect of another cent in the dollar on his income tax, or an extra couple of cents a litre on fuel for his Cadillac. Much better that a few hundred more uneducated African kids die of malnutrition, or a few score idolatrous Asian peasants from poluted water supplies!?!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but really, doesn't anyone ever read scriptures like 1 John 3:17 anymore?

And, just a thought, but , if the American government hasn't got the guts to 'penalise' its citizens, why do they go through the motions of signing up to otherwise unattainable pipedreams like the Millenium Development Goals?

Anthony

coastie · May 14, 2002

Anthony,

Please refrain from making angry or sarcastic posts. Marantah was stating his point of view. There is no reason for hostility.

I don't want to delete your posts, so please cool it down a little in this section. However, I love a passionate yet peaceful discussion as much as the next guy. Let's keep this loving.

in Christ,

Zach

TruelightUK · May 14, 2002

If you think that was angry and sarcastic, you should have read my thoughts!?! :o

No lack of love implied, just righteous (IMHO) indignation at a very blinkered, unscriptural and somewhat (IMO) sarcastic response to my original sincere and in good faith' posting. In fact, before reading Maranatha's post in my other thread, I had rather hoped this might have been intended as an ironic reflection. Instead it simply goesx to illustrate the nature of the problem we have to contend with

- see my latest comments in the 'Global Village' thread alongside this to see what I'm getting at.

Anthony

BTW, I take it some here think the Third World should go on paying out to the West - should we, meanwhile, continue giving them back a proportion of what they owe us in aid?

MARANATHA2002 · May 14, 2002

I am for arming the populations of all these oppressed countries so they can free themselves from their oppressive anti-capitalistic governments. The early armed Americans when faced with the same type of tyranny freed themselves. But the world has been taught that there is no reason to fight and die for, and without that attitude, these poor countries I fill, will never be free. About the only people in the world that I believe would fight for their freedom, are the Chinese. If they had a armed population, they would not be under the system they are in. Throwing American tax payer money at this problem will never solve it. It will only eventually bankrupt US. We cannot afford to make the world a socialistic welfare system that will only burden the American tax payer into bankruptcy. We are the example(of what a capitalistic economic system will do) for all countries to succeed, but you have to be willing to fight and die for your country. Follow the path of America and you will succeed. The reason America has economically become what it is, is because, our Fore Fathers were willing to fight and die to be free, and un-restricted capitalism, which, it seems the rest of the world hates.

As far as canceling dept. I have dept I wish I could cancel, but you know what, if I decided I couldnt pay my dept for any reason. They would take both my vehicles, my home, my land, my boat, and anything else they could find of value to repossess. And if this were to happen, what country do I turn to for relief with my dept.

So those who borrow should have to put up collateral just like everybody else. If you cant pay, you lose your land, or oil, or what ever the value of the resources of your land. The American tax payer should be paid back every cent. Peace, but not yet.

TruelightUK · May 16, 2002

Pardon me if my reply is less controlled and polite than might be normal for these forums, but...... what a load of chavinistic twaddle! The Third World welshes on its debts, so America gets to own half of Africa; of course, why didn't I think of that - the perfect solution!?!

Just look into the facts for 5 minutes will you?

Do starving, malnourished, homeless children need guns or food, water and shelter? Of course a large part of the trouble is that countries like Britain and America have been only too quick to sell arms to these oppressive regimes, who then borrow money which they have no hope of repaying, which then gives them the excuse to go on ignoring the massive needs of their population, while we slave our consciences by sending sticking plasters of humanitarian aid to patch up gaping wounds of horrifying suffering. Not to mention the crippling austerity measures imposed by the World Bank on nations who should never have been put in such a position in the first place.

But, hey, as long as Mr Average America can go on maintaining his lifestyle, why worry!

How can you possibly compare your own debt situation to that of starving millions in the 2/3 World? Sell your car, your t.v. & video, stop eating meat and convenience foods, go out and get an extra job and pay it back!?!

Anthony

PS for a more balanced and rational picture of the situation, check out websites like http://www.tearfund.org or http://www.jubileedebtcampaign.org.uk who can give you some of the real facts and statistics.

TruelightUK · May 16, 2002

At another Board, someone posted this article, which supports my points above. I reproduce it here for your information:

(From the Africa Action web site)

"Sub-Saharan Africa's massive external debt is the single biggest obstacle to the continent's development. The $300 billion which African countries owe to foreign creditors represents a crippling burden which fundamentally hampers progress in every sector. The All-African Conference of Churches has called this debt "a new form of slavery, as vicious as the slave trade". As such, it is both a cause and a symptom of the structural inequality in the international economic system.

At a basic level, the legitimacy of Africa's debts is highly questionable. Many of the loans which are being re-paid were made during the Cold War to repressive regimes and corrupt leaders, who used the money to strengthen their rule or to line their own pockets. Many more loans were made without attention to the viability of planned projects or to the capacity of the recipient country to make repayments. Very little of the money filtered its way down to make any real difference in the lives of the African people. Demanding that these people and their new governments now pay for the corruption and mismanagement practiced by previous regimes is simply unjust. These debts are illegitimate, and should be canceled outright.

Africa's debt burden and the zealous pursuit of repayments by international creditors have had severe repercussions in terms of the continent's human development. Forced cutbacks in basic social services have weakened health and education systems and undermined efforts to cope with the AIDS pandemic. Africa's children are suffering from malnutrition and are being denied the right to education by creditors who are determined to bleed Africa's economies dry. Meanwhile, the world's rich countries continue to ignore the huge debt that they owe to Africa, and to the global South more broadly, for centuries of plundering its human and natural resources. Who really owes whom?

There is a growing call from organizations in both the North and South for the complete cancellation of Africa's illegitimate debt, without conditionality imposed by creditors. Past and present initiatives at international debt relief are increasingly acknowledged to be inadequate and flawed. The Enhanced HIPC Initiative, and the Cologne Agreement by the leaders of the G-7 countries, are modest advances, but such measures are too little, too late, and too encumbered with inappropriate conditionalities.

It is past time for Africa's illegitimate debts to be written off. The cancellation of these debts is prerequisite to the continent's development to its full potential in the 21st century."

Anthony

coastie · May 17, 2002

Alright, here's my take on the situation.

People need God. People are hungry. People need medical attention and to live in a safe environment. So why wouldn't someone want to help them. Isn't this what we are called to do?

However, you can't force anyone to care. The world powers have grown fat, happy, and unwilling to except the fact that it is their duty to help the poor and starving in the world.

How can we convince them? Through commercials during Golf Tournaments, ads in the Wall Street Journal? Probably not. Those of us who are lead to give must give, and also pray for those who do not want to.

The best thing for these people in these other countries is an intimate relationship with God and the love and prayers and giving attitudes of the more fortunate people.

TruelightUK · May 17, 2002

I wonder how you guys feel about the Bible's response to the rich growing richer while the poor grow poorer?

The concept of 'robin hooding' the successful entrepreneurs to care for the exploited, weak and disenfranchised seems to me to be well precedented in Old Testament social laws! Take a look at Leviticus 25 for starters, where the prime concern was not to ensure that the hard-working venture capitalists enjoy the 'fair' reward for their labours, but that no-one should ever become permanently disinherited, disadvantaged and destitute. I see few tears shed here for those whose hard-won profits are taken away to repay the debts of the hapless and undeserving poor!

As for consoling such folk with our prayers and good intentions, this seems perilously close to Marx's concept of religion as the opiate of the masses; James' remarks about those who say to the needy "God bless you" while doing nothing practical to meet their need also come to mind. Yes, people need God; but they also need food in their bellies, clothes on their backs, a roof over their head, and basic human dignity and self-respect. If we do nothing to try and restore this to them, why should they want to listen to our preaching?

Anthony

coastie · May 17, 2002

I never said that feeding the hungry masses is wrong. But I am a firm believer that robin hoodism is wrong.

Perhaps you didn't understand my meaning during my original use of this term. Robin Hood was fabled to "steal from the rich and give to the poor". That is what I am against.

Furthermore, I am a firm believer in the old adage "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teeach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime."

It is much more important to equip the less fortunate than to simply give them hand-outs. While charity is a wonderful thing that all should be actively involved in. For a third world country to be sustainable, they can't base their entire existence on relying on the charitable hearts of others.

One reason is that there just aren't enough charitable people like you around.

Zach

TruelightUK · May 17, 2002

I totally agree with what you say about not relying on handouts and fostering self-sufficiency - as would any responsible humanitarian aid agency.

Which is precisely why it is important to try and change the institutions and structures which miltiate towards keeping certain groups of people dependant, by effectively crippling their national economies and perpetuating unjust or exploitative political, economic and commercial systems. And because the majority of people - particularly those in postiions of economic power - will not give up their built-in advantages willingly, there is a need for some form of governmental, legal intervention to ensure exploitation and injustice are minimised.

I suspect that your 'robinhoodism' objections would have been raised by the wealthy land- and slave-owning classes in Israel whom the Jubilee regulations would have obliged to turn over their 'rightful property' to those less fortunate individuals from whom they had - by fair means or foul - acquired it. But God put those laws on his statute book - even if the state of Israel never validated them (probably for the same reasons being raised by objectors to this thread!).

Anthony

coastie · May 17, 2002

I suspect that your 'robinhoodism' objections would have been raised by the wealthy land- and slave-owning classes in Israel whom the Jubilee regulations would have obliged to turn over their 'rightful property' to those less fortunate individuals from whom they had - by fair means or foul - acquired it.

If they did not willingly give up their land, taking it from them, unless directed to by God, would be wrong and just as much a sin as regulating a nations production of goods in order to maintain a certain leverage over them.

But God put those laws on his statute book - even if the state of Israel never validated them (probably for the same reasons being raised by objectors to this thread!).

God never said to take away what someone had earned. It is a personal choice as to whether or not one should give away what they have. This, however, says nothing for my ethics, since I am not (by far) a wealthy man, and I believe that charity is a very important aspect of anyone's life and one should be very pro-active in doing their part for humanity.

What good are your belongings if they do nothing for anyone but yourself.

TruelightUK · May 18, 2002

"If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof overhead and a place to sleep... you are richer than 75% of this world. If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace... you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy." (Barry Killick, "Direction" May 2001)

Personally, I am currently, at the age of 44, earning the highest salary I ever have , but still significantly below the average graduate starting salary in this country (it's only in the last 3 years that I've earned enough to be required to repay the Student Loan I never applied for!). But I consider myself extremely wealthy when I go and stay with folk in Ukraine and have more dollars in my wallet for a ten day stay than my host earns in a month to feed his family of 5! And they themselves would be incredibly well off compared to the majority of families in Sub-Saharan Africa, who have no source of income, and no subsist on meagre crops snatched from a drought-parched earth.

I don't believe we should all labour under an enormous burden of guilt over this, but I do feel, as Christians, we have an obligation to highlight just how fortunate we are, and question the standards of the society in which we live which would conform us to their image of self-indulgence without regard to the unmet needs of others. I'd go so far as to question whether we have any right to maintain a 'middle class western lifestyle' while there are those whom we could help who have no roof over their head or food in their bellies. If I have enough to meet my basic needs with a little to spare for 'rainy days', then I reckon everything I earn above that - annual pay rises etc. - should be channelled into some kind of giving;

At the start of his ministry, John Wesley had an income of £30 per year. He gave away £2 and lived on £28. Later, his income grew, to a peak of £120 per year. He still lived on £28 and gave the rest away - a massive 77%.

I can't claim to equal that, but I certainly try to ensure that what I spend on indulging myself with luxuries like holidays and meals in restaurants is at least equalled by the amount I give to humanitarian aid projects.

Can/should we legislate to force everyone to act in this way? Of course not. But I do beleive responsible governments should take a lead in creating systems and institutions which promote justice and do not exploit the weak and vulnerable - in their own nation or abroad. If something is morally wrong, then it is still wrong even when those who do it cannot or will not recognise the fact, or are unconcerned by it. When governments fail to act to rectify that situation, surely they are accountable to the God from whom they hold their warrant to govern? And, as 'enlightened Christians' we should be active in trying to influence those around us - including our elected representatives in government - toward more equitable and compassionate lifestyles.

Anthony

MARANATHA2002 · May 18, 2002

What about those of us, that see our hard earned prosperity as a blessing from GOD, and credit if towards HIM. Should we carry a guilt for other cultures and societies that have as a whole rejected HIS plan for salvation. Peace, but not yet.

TruelightUK · May 18, 2002

Originally posted by MARANATHA2002
What about those of us, that see our hard earned prosperity as a blessing from GOD

Do you see the contradicion in this statement? How can something "hard-earned" also be a "blessing" from God - which, to me at least, implies it is a free and unmerited gift out of the goodness of His grace.

I would also ask you to question whether prosperity built on the back of other people's or nation's poverty is truly something that God would wish to reward!! And even if God chooses to 'bless us' in recognition of our righteous deeds (as unquestionably was the case under the Old Covenant), is this something we can take credit for; surely we were only doing what was our duty; if we were doing it only for the reward it brings, was it truly a righteous deed anyway??

Should we carry a guilt for other cultures and societies that have as a whole rejected HIS plan for salvation.

I'm not sure I entirely grasp what you're getting at here. Are you saying that other countries are 'guilty', because of their rejection of God, and thus have 'earned' their poverty? Or are you saying that we should not feel any guilt about prospering while they do not?

It's worth remembering that God makes the rain to fall on good and evil alike. His grace has nothing to do with our 'deserts' - do any of us truly 'deserve' any blessing from Him? but, no, I do not think we should feel guilty for being prosperous - though the Bible makes it clear that we should use that prosperity to in turn 'bless' those less fortunate than ourselves. Not to do so does render us 'guilty' in God's eyes (remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus, for example). And if we remain complacent in our riches, telling ourselves God has blessed us, so we have a right to enjoy them, regardless of the cost to others, then there are several scriptural passages which tell us we should, indeed, feel guilty and repent before we are brought to account!

BTW you might like to do a bit of research into the religious make up of some of the world's poorer nations - I think you'll find some of them are proportionally more 'Christian' and God-fearing than many proserous Western countries! While some of the world's most prosperous nations - regardless of whether or not that prosperity is fairly shared within the nations population - are actually Islamic. It's an age old puzzle that, very often inthis earthly existence, the wicked prosper and the righteous suffer. But, ultimately, all will reap what they sow and be rewarded according to what they have done with the 'talents' they have been entrusted with.

Anthony

coastie · May 18, 2002

How can something "hard-earned" also be a "blessing" from God - which, to me at least, implies it is a free and unmerited gift out of the goodness of His grace.

The only free thing God has given me is life and salvation.
By "only" I, in no way, mean that that is insignificant. The hard earned things in my life are not things that I earned solely on my merit but by the grace of God I was able to earn these things. Would you prefer that I didn't give thanks to God for letting me eat a well-balance dinner every night?

Of Course you wouldn't.

I'm not sure I entirely grasp what you're getting at here. Are you saying that other countries are 'guilty', because of their rejection of God, and thus have 'earned' their poverty? Or are you saying that we should not feel any guilt about prospering while they do not?

Guilt is not a feeling from God, buddy.

No I absolutely do not feel guilt that these people are impoverished, and I feel inclined to help them out what little I can, but I'm not going to take a vow of poverty to help these people out. That would be wrong and a very stupid thing to do for my wife.

While I really appreciate your soft heart and compassion for the less fortunate, I'm not going to sell everything I have and move to some arid, impoverished nation with my wife because I felt guilty that I have a comfortable life.

TruelightUK · May 18, 2002

"Guilt is not from God" - I pretty much agree with you there - which is, in part, why I have never suggested you or anyone else should feel guilty for having more than other people. Or feel condemned into drastic over-reactions to appease such feelings. None of us asked to be born into the societies in which we find ourselves, with the gifts and opportunities we enjoy (or don't). That is either pure chance, or the will of God, and I fully agree that we should rejoice daily in the blessings that we have. But we must also remember that we are accountable to God for what we do with those blessings.

On which note, I do feel that 'guilt' - of the right sort - is sometimes the proper outworking of our God-given conscience. Also that the Holy Spirit 'convicts' us (not 'condemns') of sinful attitudes, and the righteous alternative. And if our wealth is gained at the expense of others, or is not received with due gratitude to God and compassion for those it enables us to help, then there is, clearly, a need for us to be 'convicted' of our 'sin' (be it greed, 'institutionalised theft', or self-centred indifference), so we can repent and change.

"Look here, you rich men, now is the time to cry and groan with anguished grief because of all the terrible troubles ahead of you. Your wealth is even now rotting, and your fine clothes are becoming mere moth-ridden rags. The value of your silver and gold is dropping fast, yet it will stand in evidence against you, and eat your flesh like fire. That is what you have stored up for yourselves, to receive on the coming day of judgement. For listen! hear the cries of the field workers whom you have cheated of their pay.Their cries have reacyhed the ears of the Lord of Hosts.
You have spent your years here on earth having fun, satisfying your every whim, and now your fat hearts are ready for the slaughter. You have condemned and killed good men who had no power to defend themselves against you."
(James 1;1-6 LB)

So please do not misunderstand me; I am not at all saying that no-one has any right to a decent lifestyle, or should feel obligated to neglect their own family responsibilities
for some misguided ideal of being the next Mother Theresa. (There again, perhaps we should not be too complacent in assuming God will never say to us "sell all that you have and give to the poor"!?!) But I do frimly believe that we need to be realistic and God-motivated in the way we use our money, and the kind of lifestyle we adopt for ourselves and our families - resisting consumerism, one-up-manship, or the fear which says 'hold on to what is yours, or you may regret it later', and refusing to turn our backs on the needs of those less fortunate than ourselves. Remembering always that our security lies, not in our ability to provide for our futures, but in God's loving concern for us His children. After all, as the Bible says,

"He who giveth unto the poor shall not lack, but he that hideth his eyes shall have many a curse"
(Prov.28:27)

Anthony

TruelightUK · May 18, 2002

'Blessing from God' or 'hard-earned'?

I take your point, Coastie, but I guess what I am getting at is the underlying attitude behind these phrases. If I regard something as a 'blessing from God', then in a sense it is not really 'mine' to do with as I please, but something I hold in trust from Him, to use according to His will. If, however, I see it as something I have 'earned', by my own hard work etc., then it is 'mine' by right - no more than I deserve for the effort I have put in. Thus no-one has any place telling me what to do with it, and I'll jolly well make sure I keep a tight hold on it!

Anthony

coastie · May 19, 2002

Truelight,

You, my friend, have a good heart!

We were just misunderstanding each other I think. Because I do not disagree with anything you just said.

as a side note:

I spent some time with the most amazing group of missionaries in Honduras. This group of people had sold everything they owned and donated it to this mission and moved out of the coutry to build a school and a church and a plantation on a small island in the Gulf.

Everything they needed they got purely by miraculous means. If anyone were to spend time with these people and see how their needs are met on a daily basis simply through and unbridled faith in God, they would surely be a believer in miracles, at the very least.

These people worked hard every day, they had almost nothing, and what they did have was donated. They were an amazing group of people. I wish I could do what they did.

Yous hould definately check them out. They have a wesite at http://www.friendships.org

God Bless

Zach

Working for the Jubilee!

Tilter at religious windmills

Active Member

Tilter at religious windmills

Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

Tilter at religious windmills

Active Member

Tilter at religious windmills

Tilter at religious windmills

Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

Tilter at religious windmills

Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

Tilter at religious windmills

Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

Tilter at religious windmills

Active Member

Tilter at religious windmills

Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

Tilter at religious windmills

Tilter at religious windmills

Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

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