Sola Fide said:2. The obvious thing that I'm going to say about Romans 6 is that you left out being crucified.
Romans 6:6 goes on to say that we were not only buried with him, but also crucified with him. Yet we don't see symbolism of being crucified in the act of baptism by immersion and of believers only.[/QUOTE]
Sola Fide said:The body is perpendicular to the water, ie makes a cross.
So, once again, I show that it is a symbol, of the cross and of our being buried with Christ, and raising again. And if it is a symbol of this faith, faith in Christ's propitation, then, it is not for infants who can not express such faith (Romans 10). What we speak is what is in our hearts.The baptism of an infant testifies to the faith of the parent(s), and is to work in strengthening the faith of all those who are watching the baptism take place. In that they are reminded of their baptisms and are hurled back to think of their own baptism, and if they have been faithful to Christ, who instituted the sign of baptism, therefore causing them to examine themselves.
How can you say that our bodies being perpindicular to the water make a cross? I've sure never heard that one before. I know what you're trying to say, but the water does not make the shape of a cross.theseed said:
So, once again, I show that it is a symbol, of the cross and of our being buried with Christ, and raising again. And if it is a symbol of this faith, faith in Christ's propitation, then, it is not for infants who can not express such faith (Romans 10). What we speak is what is in our hearts.
Besides that there is plenty of sriptural evidence that the preferable method of baptism is not immersion. For example you cited Titus, his is a perfect example if you want to go that route. He said "washing", not "immersing".
I see not resemblence to baptism and circumcision, your assumption so far is that it was done on infants, but if it was not then ther would be no simularities. A shadow would be like comparing marriage to the church and Christ, not curmcision and baptism, to things that look completely different. Also, a shadow would be the Passover meal vs Christ death on the cross.My last statement is this. Circumcision was a "type" or "shadow" in the Old Testament pointing forward to something in the New. My challenge is for you to show what other than baptism could have fulfilled it.
Your still assuming that children were baptised, which you can not, and therefore can't prove this statement.This is an exact picture of baptism.
So what, his rightousness came by faith, where is the part about baptism?If that's not convincing enough itself, just look at Romans 4 as a perfect example of how circumcision strikingly similar to baptism.
Romans 4:11- "He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised."
NO!That sounds indentical to baptism doesn't it?
Why doesn't washing equal immersion? Because typically when washing it involves pouring water upon something. Or else it wouldn't be called washing, but instead dipping or soaking or immersing.
But you still have to show that this applies to baptism or circumcison.1 Corinthians 7:14- "For the unbelieving husband is set apart because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is set apart because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy [i.e. set apart]."
The sign of this being set apart is baptism, because baptism is the sign given to show that someone belongs to the covenant keeping community, i.e. the visible church. Therefore the children of at least one believing parent should be marked as belonging to the church by baptism.
If you concede that baptism is a prerequisite to church membership, then children must be baptized. Just as children were called to be a part of the assembly of the Lord in the O.T. They are numbered as members of the visible church in the N.T. Or else Paul would not have been able to command them- "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right." - Eph. 6:1
Ephesians was written to the church, the saints, at Ephesus.
I've read about sacrifices in the OT having cross-shaped aspects.How can you say that our bodies being perpindicular to the water make a cross? I've sure never heard that one before. I know what you're trying to say, but the water does not make the shape of a cross.
:Enter the Lutheran:theseed said:Why does not wasing equal immersion, washing is a description more than a method of baptism is it
not?
I see not resemblence to baptism and circumcision, your assumption so far is that it was done on infants, but if it was not then ther would be no simularities. A shadow would be like comparing marriage to the church and Christ, not curmcision and baptism, to things that look completely different. Also, a shadow would be the Passover meal vs Christ death on the cross.
Col. 2.11 speaks of the circumcision of Christ, that was not fullfilled in the OT, before we have Christ we are dead in our transgressions. We are buried with Christ in Baptism which you agree with. This is a spiritual baptism, so is ther also a Spiritual Cur curmcison. Baptism and cicurmicision are to different things that relate to the work of Christ, one is not a shadow of the other.
11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the flesh (sinful nature),[1] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh (sinful nature),[2] God made you[3] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4]
Circumcision symbolizes death, baptism symbolizes death and resurreciton in Christ. Therefore, baptism does not paralell the OT circumsion, but they are 2 different symbols describing inter-related concepts of death. Now, the boldface is just to show that baptism nor circumscion saved, to Lutherans
Hi JVACJVAC said:3:5 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."
JVAC said:St. Matthew records in his Gospel of Jesus, 3:16 that as soon as Jesus came out of the water, the heavens were torn, the spirit decended upon him and God himself spake saying "This is my son, with whom I am well pleased." These Graces happened when John baptized, therefore no less should happen when we baptize with Jesus' baptism (Matt 28:19).
JVAC said:God's Grace is in Baptism, for therein lies His Holy Word. Don't trust the water, don't trust the administer, trust only on the Word of God! That is Baptism, God choosing us, giving it to us, so that we might believe in Him, and His promise, that is given thereby!
Poor Sola Fide ,sola fide said:You conceded that passover was a type of the Lord's supper. Is there an explicit scripture in the N.T. to verify that? The N.T. says that He is our passover lamb, but it doesn't mention the Lord's supper. Same goes with circumcision and baptism (Col. 2).
Grace.
The purpose of the Lord's Supper is to remember what he did and how he did, and proclaim it that way, which infants can not due, this excludes them.1 Corinthians 11 said:25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
I agree with three on the grounds that the baptismal water does nothing! It is not the Water, as I pointed out before, it is God's action. This sacrament is not the outward sign that you think it is. It is not the outward act, it is the action of God, and it is that action that we must have faith in. This is were we are diverging, for you think of it as water and proclaiming entry into belief, we proclaim it as God choosing you and water is merely a symbol.theseed said:
Hi JVAC
And Jesus is the word become flesh, and faith in Christ is what saves, faith that brings us into His grace, and not water nor bread, nor wine. But faith in the propitation on the Cross. (Romans 5.1-2; Romans 10.9-13: Ephes. 2.9-10).
This is talking about water of giving birth, hence, when the water breaks. This verses parallels the other verses of being born from the mothers womb and the flesh
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[1] "
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[3] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
1) born again also means born from above, and John intends this word anonthen (greek) to have both meanings. He is plays on many words
2) we find "born of water" righter after "mothers womb" and before the verse that says being born of the spirit alone brings new birth.
3) Hence, if the new birth is only of the spirit, then baptism (water) does nothing, but Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what brings the new birth.
FYI: I've read The Large Catechism (90%) and The Small Catechism .
Jesus didn't get grace in John's Baptism, for John's baptism was for the remission of sin. It was penitential. Christ's Baptism is the one that gives grace. I merely mentioned the graceful acts that did so happen in that baptism so that you might think higher of Christs baptism. We do know that the apostles were baptised though .Jesus needs no grace, because he lived without sin (Hebrews). True the Spirit came upon him, after he was baptized, but the Spirit came on the Apostles at Pentecost, and we find there no assocation with water baptism, but only the Spirit being poured out--like when God poured out rain on the earth in the time of Noah.
JVAC said:We depend not on these things in the Sacrament. It is God's action that is the stress.
Well that is thread in of itself. I would love to sit down with you on that one, but I am lacking in the time, however, I think there is a four day weekend coming up .theseed said:I'm not convince that God acts in every sacrament. I've not been persuaded that the NT has such a teaching.
I agree. I thought about saying the same thing. This thread is on infant baptism, read my most bottom postJVAC said:Well that is thread in of itself. I would love to sit down with you on that one, but I am lacking in the time, however, I think there is a four day weekend coming up .