Pegan Influence on Christianity

Status
Not open for further replies.

Oblio

Creed or Chaos
Jun 24, 2003
22,324
865
64
Georgia - USA
Visit site
✟27,610.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I also see the keys, which are symbolic of the keys given to St. Peter. While I disagree with the RCC view concerning what that means, it is certainly not pagan, and these keys are present in Orthodox Icons of St. Peter.
 
Upvote 0

zaire

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2004
2,032
39
✟2,403.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Scott_LaFrance said:
You still have yet to answer the question, what about his outfit is Pagan? If anything it is more Hebrew in origin than anything.
The thing is would Jesus have woren something like that? NO

Jesus Himself was so much like ordinary men in dress and appearance that Judas had to arrange a sign (kiss) so they could identify and capture Him.


Matthew 23:5-8
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.


What the pope wears screams 'LOOK AT ME'.

About Jesus:

Isaiah 53:2
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.




Not even supposed to call the pope father:
Matthew 23:9-11
9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[a] 11The greatest among you will be your servant.
 
Upvote 0

ScottBot

Revolutionary
May 2, 2005
50,456
1,441
56
a state of desperation
✟57,712.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Sooooo, you are implying that real preachers of the gospel should walk around in loose robes and sandals, with long hair and beards? Go to the middle east and see if people who dress like that have anything to do with the Christian message.
bytheway said:
The thing is would Jesus have woren something like that? NO

Jesus Himself was so much like ordinary men in dress and appearance that Judas had to arrange a sign (kiss) so they could identify and capture Him.


Matthew 23:5-8
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.


What the pope wears screams 'LOOK AT ME'.

About Jesus:

Isaiah 53:2
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.




Not even supposed to call the pope father:
Matthew 23:9-11
9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[a] 11The greatest among you will be your servant.
 
Upvote 0

Oblio

Creed or Chaos
Jun 24, 2003
22,324
865
64
Georgia - USA
Visit site
✟27,610.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Whats he wearing?

While this speaks to Eastern vestments, you can apply it here to a certain extent.

The Sticharion or Tunic. — The universal garment worn by all ancient nations, men and
women alike, was the Chiton, otherwise called Tunic or Sticharion, a long garment with sleeves,
which reached to the ground. This garment remains common to all classes of ordained persons,
with this small difference, that the deacon’s tunic has wide sleeves, while the priest’s and
bishop’s tunics have tight-fitting ones. By its brilliant whiteness this garment reminds the cele-brant
that the grace of the Holy Spirit covers him as with a garment of salvation and joy, and
invests him with beauty. In our days, the members of the lower clergy are also authorized to
wear this garment.

The Orarion and the Epitrachelion. — Another indispensable portion of every man’s dress was
the towel or scarf, which every one wore, thrown over one shoulder and sometimes both. Poor
people used it to wipe their mouth and face after ablutions; while wealthy men of rank, who had
slaves to carry their towel for them, used the scarf which they wore themselves as an ornament,
and therefore had it made out of rich stuffs and sometimes decorated with pearls and precious
stones. Such a scarf was called an Orarion. The Orarion — or Stole — remained as one of the
sacred vestments, to be used by all classes of ordained persons, in token that the grace of the
Holy Spirit flows down upon them abundantly. Deacons wear it on the left shoulder and only on
certain occasions bind it around their bodies crosswise. The Orarion is the deacon’s principal
vestment, without which he cannot officiate at any service whatever. Holding one end of it with
his right hand, he slightly raises it, when he invites the congregation to begin prayers and to
listen attentively; also when he himself recites prayers. In old times, deacons used to wipe the
lips of communicants with the Orarion after they had received the Eucharist. Because deacons
minister on earth around the Lord’s altar as the angels surround Him in the heavens, so, inallusion thereto,
the angelic hymn: “Holy, holy, holy, the Lord Sabaoth!” formerly used to be
embroidered on the Orarion. Priests and bishops wear this garment on both shoulders, in such a
manner that it encircles their neck and descends in front in two ends, which, for convenience
sake, are either sewed or buttoned together. From this way of wearing it, the priest’s Orarion or
double stole has the name of Epitrachélion, which means “what is worn around the neck.”
Priests and bishops thus wear the Orarion on both shoulders in token that they have received the
added grace of priesthood and have devoted themselves wholly to the Church. Of the church
servitors only the sub-deacons wear the Orarion, crossed on the shoulders or tied under one
shoulder.

The Phelonion or Cope and the Saccos. — Over the chiton or tunic the ancients used to wear a
garment named Phelónion. It was long, wide, sleeveless, enveloping the entire person, and
leaving only one opening for the head. Poor people made it out of some thick, coarse stuff, and
used it only in traveling, to protect them from cold and bad weather. The rich wore the same
garment, made out of soft material, so that it was not only a protection in traveling, but an
ornamental cloak. It was contrived so as to enable the wearer to get out and use his hands. To
this effect there were studs on the shoulders, over which were looped cords which, being pulled,
shirred up the skirt of the garment. When shirred up on both shoulders to leave both hands free, it
presented the aspect of two bags, one of which-the larger-hung down behind, and the other,
smaller, in front. The Phelonion has been preserved as one of the priestly vestments, in token
that priests are invested with truth, and hedged off by it from all the iniquities which surround
them, and consequently should be ministers of the truth. In Eastern churches the Phelonion is
still made after the old model, of equal length in front and behind. But in Russian churches,
where this vestment is made out of the richest cloths, of gold and silver, which it would be
difficult to shirr up on the shoulders, it is cut out in front, so that it is much shorter than behind.
The Phelonion is usually called simply “robe” (ríza).
For several centuries the Phelonion was worn also by bishops. But, when the Christian
faith became predominant, the Greek Emperors granted to the principal bishops — the Patri-archs,
— the right of wearing the Dalmatic, — a garment like a short tunic with short sleeves, or
half sleeves, — worn only by themselves and the grandees of the Empire. The bishops adopted
this garment, not as a worldly adornment, but as a reminder that they must rise to holiness of life,
and called it Saccos, which means a “sackcloth garment,” or “garment of humility.” In the course
of time it became common to all bishops, and they wear it now in the place of the Phelonion.
 
Upvote 0

katherine2001

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
5,986
1,065
67
Billings, MT
Visit site
✟11,346.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Scott_LaFrance said:
Sooooo, you are implying that real preachers of the gospel should walk around in loose robes and sandals, with long hair and beards? Go to the middle east and see if people who dress like that have anything to do with the Christian message.

Actually, Orthodox priests and monks dress somewhat like that. They wear cassocks and some wear sandals. Many Orthodox priests have long hair and most of them have beards. Monks (including priestmonks) always have long hair and beards. As there are many Orthodox priests and monks in the Middle East (including in Jerusalem and Palestine), it wouldn't be unusual to see people dressed like that in the Middle East.
 
Upvote 0

ScottBot

Revolutionary
May 2, 2005
50,456
1,441
56
a state of desperation
✟57,712.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
katherine2001 said:
Actually, Orthodox priests and monks dress somewhat like that. They wear cassocks and some wear sandals. Many Orthodox priests have long hair and most of them have beards. Monks (including priestmonks) always have long hair and beards. As there are many Orthodox priests and monks in the Middle East (including in Jerusalem and Palestine), it wouldn't be unusual to see people dressed like that in the Middle East.
I agree, I forgot about the whole cloister religious thing. Most of us here in the West prefer to be clean shaven, although the Byzantine Rite Catholics are down with the bearded look.
 
Upvote 0

Axion

Senior Veteran
Feb 5, 2003
2,942
301
uk
Visit site
✟4,616.00
Faith
Catholic
bytheway said:
The thing is would Jesus have woren something like that? NO
He wore clothes a lot more like that than they do a gucci suit!

Jesus Himself was so much like ordinary men in dress and appearance that Judas had to arrange a sign (kiss) so they could identify and capture Him.
So. No-one noticed Jesus when He rode into Jerusalem?
There are times when you have to stand out

Matthew 23:5-8
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
Everyone wore tassels and phlacteries in those days. So Jesus is talking about exaggerating dress and perceived holy acts in normal life to appear holy. This is not something confined to Catholics. The modern-day equivalent could be walking around with a big black bible, saying "Praise the Lord" loudly in the right company, and adopting a self-righteous attitude to others.

What the Pope does on the other hand is dress liturgically for the worship and honour of God. You honour the King when you present yourself to him by wearing appropriate dress.


6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.

So. Calling someone "Pastor" or "Reverend" is wrong?

Not even supposed to call the pope father:
Matthew 23:9-11
9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
Dear me. You never called your male parent, Father, or Dad?
 
Upvote 0

ScottBot

Revolutionary
May 2, 2005
50,456
1,441
56
a state of desperation
✟57,712.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
bytheway said:
I dont call my father 'father' in a religious sence.

If you read Matthew 23:1-11 you can clearly see that Jesus is saying dont call anyone 'father' in a religious sence.
He also said don't call anyone teacher or master. Since Mister is a derivation of the German "meister" which means master, calling anyone Mister is wrong too. The Greek for teacher has the same root as Doctor. So calling anyone doctor is off limits as well. And why does Paul refer to himself as Timothy's father?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zaire

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2004
2,032
39
✟2,403.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Mister
  1. Used as a courtesy title before the surname, full name, or professional title of a man, usually written in its abbreviated form: Mr. Jones; Mr. Secretary.
  2. Used as the official term of address for certain U.S. military personnel, such as warrant officers.
  3. mister Informal. Used as a form of address for a man: Watch your step, mister.
  4. Informal. Used as a term of reference by a woman of her husband.
Mister does not mean master.
 
Upvote 0

ScottBot

Revolutionary
May 2, 2005
50,456
1,441
56
a state of desperation
✟57,712.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
bytheway said:
Mister
  1. Used as a courtesy title before the surname, full name, or professional title of a man, usually written in its abbreviated form: Mr. Jones; Mr. Secretary.
  2. Used as the official term of address for certain U.S. military personnel, such as warrant officers.
  3. mister Informal. Used as a form of address for a man: Watch your step, mister.
  4. Informal. Used as a term of reference by a woman of her husband.
Mister does not mean master.

What women call their husband Mr.<insert name>?
From Etymology Online: mister, as a title of courtesy before a man's Christian name, 1447, unaccented variant of master.
 
Upvote 0

zaire

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2004
2,032
39
✟2,403.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Scott_LaFrance said:
From Etymology Online: mister, as a title of courtesy before a man's Christian name, 1447, unaccented variant of master.
When someone calls someone Mr.****** they are not calling someone master in a religious sence.

But this is what catholics do when they call their priests 'father'. Call them father in religious sence. This is what Jesus said not to do.
 
Upvote 0

ScottBot

Revolutionary
May 2, 2005
50,456
1,441
56
a state of desperation
✟57,712.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
bytheway said:
When someone calls someone Mr.****** they are not calling someone master in a religious sence.

But this is what catholics do when they call their priests 'father'. Call them father in religious sence. This is what Jesus said not to do.
Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul’s statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

Peter followed the same custom, referring to Mark as his son: "She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5:13). The apostles sometimes referred to entire churches under their care as their children. Paul writes, "Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" (2 Cor. 12:14); and, "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" (Gal. 4:19).
 
Upvote 0

katherine2001

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
5,986
1,065
67
Billings, MT
Visit site
✟11,346.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
bytheway said:
I dont call my father 'father' in a religious sence.

If you read Matthew 23:1-11 you can clearly see that Jesus is saying dont call anyone 'father' in a religious sence.

Then how do you deal with the fact that Paul very clearly used the word "father" and meant it in a religious sense? In the passage quoted above, he was saying that he was the spiritual father of the people he has brought to the faith. He calls himself a father in a spiritual sense (since obviously, he was not the physical father of these people--otherwise he would have committed major sin).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gitlance

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,781
193
Earth
✟19,057.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
For all of you who deny the validity of addressing priests as "Father," perhaps you should quit taking the Scriptures out of context and read them in their entirety:

Matt.23:6-12 said:
They love to have the place of honour at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, [size=-2]7[/size]and to be greeted with respect in the market-places, and to have people call them rabbi. [size=-2]8[/size]But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students.* [size=-2]9[/size]And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. [size=-2]10[/size]Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah.* [size=-2]11[/size]The greatest among you will be your servant. [size=-2]12[/size]All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.

Call no man "teacher," "father," "instructor." You all had better rethink the entire English language if you wish to take this passage out of context and apply only verse 9 as doctrine. If we take this passage literally, we may not refer to anyone with any sort of title or position of authority. How many of you went to college and called your teacher "professor?" That's a no-no according to Jesus, apparently. It is also a no-no to refer to the leaders of your churches as "pastor" if the context of the passage is to be incorrecly understood as literal.

I would encourage all of you to take a good biblical hermeneutics class and learn how to properly understand the Scriptures.

I am on the catholic side of this debate, for we Anglicans also refer to our priests as "father," and have done so from the earliest days of the Church catholic.
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟50,355.00
Faith
Catholic
bytheway said:
My point is that what the pope wears isnt very humble.

Did you know that the "hat" he wears coming up to two points signifies? The Two points visually represent the Old and New Tesaments.

Are there hats in the pagan world that represent the Old and New Testaments?


Peace
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟50,355.00
Faith
Catholic
bytheway said:
The thing is would Jesus have woren something like that? NO

Jesus Himself was so much like ordinary men in dress and appearance that Judas had to arrange a sign (kiss) so they could identify and capture Him.


Matthew 23:5-8
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.


What the pope wears screams 'LOOK AT ME'.

About Jesus:

Isaiah 53:2
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.




Not even supposed to call the pope father:
Matthew 23:9-11
9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[a] 11The greatest among you will be your servant.


I think you are mixing issues up . . . you are having difficulty with cultural issues, not realy religious ones . . . and to justify (perhaps subconsiously) your feelings against our cultural practices, you are trying to link them to pagan influences.


Did you read the article I provided a link to by Woodrow at the beginning of this thread?


Do you use the symbol of the cross? It is pagan in origin

Do you use the symbol of the fish? It is pagan in origin . .

Are you married? Do you have a wedding ring? Do you intend to use a wedding ring when you get married if not already married? It is pagan in origin too . .


There is nothing pagan in the vestments of the Roman Catholic clergy . . they are not even of pagan origin, unlike other religious symbols that are common in Christianity. the dress of clergy are cultural issues that are specifically designed to symbolically remind us of important elements of our Christian faith . nothing more . .


Some people experience a type of culture shock when trying to adjust to what our pope and clergy wear . . . that is simply due to cultural differences, and a failure to understand what these vestments signify to us.


You are simply barking up the wrong tree here . . . ;)



Regarding "call no man father" . .. do you call your own father "Father" ?


When Christ said to cut of your hand if it caused you to sin, have you cut off your hand yet? When He said to pluck out your eye if it caused you to sin, have you plucked your eye out yet?

Do you think He meant to literally do these things?

Or was He using hyperbole?

Hyperbole is a literary device where one exagerates to make a point. . . . Jesus used hyperbole when He spoke of cutting off our hands, or plucking out our eyes . . .

Jesus also used hyperbole when He said "call no man father" . .

Obviously, He didn't mean this literally, but was making a point, for Paul calls himself a father of christians he wrote to, he called them his chldren, there are references in the New Testament where Abraham is called their faither, etc . . .

Jesus was not speaking literally, but figuratively there, using hyperbole . . so there is nothing wrong with calling our priests "faither" as Paul was called "father" by his spiritual "children" . . .

If what Jesus said was to be understood literally, then Paul promoted error, something that is contrary to Jesus' teaching, and our scriptures are then fallible and cannot be trusted . . .


We have to be reasonable in our interpretation of scripture . . . God gave us a mind to use, not to simply and blindly follow a teaching that we can literally call no man on earth "father" (which would include our earthly fathers as well) that is obviously rediculous on its face . . . .



Peace
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Debi1967

Proudly in love with Rushingwind62
Site Supporter
Dec 2, 2003
20,535
1,129
57
Green Valley, Illinios
Visit site
✟71,555.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So I suppose that if someone went to say a Baptist Church, as I used to go to a Baptist Church so I can get away with this one, and they are a millionaire, they should wear a sackcloth to church because otherwise if they wore a fine suit and nice jewelry then they would be flaunting themselves and their riches in a pagan way?

HMMM, let me think about this for a minute.... why should someone not want to look their best for the Lord in His house if they possibly can in order to show their respect for Him and that they care enough to take the time to be in such attire in front of Him if they have the means to do so?

HMMM I do not know I would think that it would be quite disrespectful actually if they went in a raggedly ole pair of jeans and t-shirt when it was possible for them to be more beffitting for the Lord... We know that if that we cannot afford anything more than a pair of jeans and t-shirt then to the Lord then at that point we are beautiful in the eyes of the Lord as then we have done the best that we can before Him, but if we we do not then I see that and many others see that as completely disrespectful....

As far as the Holy Father is concerned every part of His attire is geared towards furthering more adoration to God. It is a way of telling the Lord of our Love for Him in gesture as well as heart and words...

Pax Christi
Debi
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.