Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps

Mark the Builder said:

This is quite a thread. Almost like watching a tennis match.

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Mark – thanks for your comments and questions.

1. “AVBunyan, what is your thoughts on the need for a Christian to confess and repent?” Is there a need:

2. Does it effect our standing with God at all if we don't?”

Fair questions and good questions. I appreciate the opportunity to explain my position.

1. I believe there is a need to confess and more importantly to repent. What good is acknowledging and claiming I John 1:9 (I have a thread on this – you might want to search this one out) and then not repenting – this makes the confession a sham and a show.

2. No, whether we confess, repent or not does not affect ones standing. I think my initial post on the “Two Points on Losing…” made it clear we cannot undo the great work God has already done. It may affect our state. In other words one who does not confess or acknowledge and repent is in danger of losing much in his Christian walk. The unrepentant saint can lose his joy, boldness before God, assurance, testimony, can cause others to stumble, and generally be a wreck but he is secure because of what Christ did for him at Calvary. Why would anyone want to live this way?

You see, I believe people confuse position with practical, standing with state. I did a thread on this - please search my name and you will find the thread – I believe it clears up much of what I’m trying to say.

”It seems to me that you are saying the only consequences for sin is feeling bad and suffering the consequences for actions on earth but they have no effect on our heavenly standing.”

Amen – it may cause a loss of rewards, maybe. We have to get a grasp on just what took place at Calvary. I firmly believe that the doctrine of justification is the least understood of all the doctrines today. If the saints understood this more then we would not be worried about our sins in the sense we live in fear of eternal judgment – we would be living more holy in light of our great justification.

“It seems to me that if it's God's intention to set outside the body of the church those 'Christians' who continue to sin that this would greatly effect their standing with not only the church but with God.”

It affects their fellowship with other saints but let me ask you this? Why do you think Paul used the word ‘adoption” and “sons” when describing saints? Ex. I have a son – he messes up big time – he is discipline down here – he is still me son and I’ll love him no matter what he does – I may be displeased and grieved but his standing as my son never changes but his state might. I think that the laws of today let you disinherit your son – but if you adopt you can never disinherit him.

I would agree with you that if a saint does not take heed to rebuke, then correction, then instruction I righteousness then we, as brothers and sisters, are to withdraw fellowship. The withdrawing of fellowship by the saints is the form of discipline for us today on earth amongst the saints.

“I understand that this was a disciplinary action that was meant to draw the brother or sister back into fellowship but to tell me that it always did is a stretch. These I would consider the ones who shipwreck their faith.”

You are right – if the continue their course they will shipwreck their lives and their faith will fail them but their standing is safe if they are truly a redeemed son. Remember, our faith did not justify us it was the faith OF Jesus Christ – Rom. 3:22 and Gal. 2:16. Faith failing does not equate to losing salvation. Remember position vs. practical.

I trust this clears up my post – I don’t’ make light of sin or gloss it over – I seek to acknowledge and guard my heart so as not to repeat the same sin over again.

Again, my threads on “Position vs. Practical” and “I John 1:9” might give you something to think about.

May God bless your walk with the Saviour

geocajun said:

Well for starters you never addressed the scriptures I gave you.
1. (Romans 11:20-22)

2. (Hebrews 10:26-29)

3. (2 Peter 2:20-22)

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Forgive me for with all my posting on this subject I missed this. I turst you know I do try to read and then answer but I get in a hurry and miss things.

1. Here Paul is not dealing with the individual but Gentiles and how they relate to God's plan regarding Israel. During the transition of the Acts (when Romans was written) God was moving away from Israel and towards the Gentiles in His offer of the kingdom. The individual there is not the issue but the nations. Romans 9-11 deals mainly with how God is dealing with Israel and the Gentiles not individuals.

2. Hebrews has always been a thorn in everybody's flesh. Difficult book to grasp today for believers now - it is a book that deals doctrinally with Israel during the tribulation. The fact that it was written to "Hebrews" should tell us that doctrinally it does not deal with the body of Christ doctrine today.
The context of Hebrews is talking about unsaved Hebrews becoming partakers of Christ if they maintain thier confidence and hope firm until the end of a period of time - the 7 year tribulation. This book is not body of Christ doctrine but doctrIne for a specific period of time and that time is not now and I am not a Hebrew - are you a Hebrew going through the triublation? If not Hebrews is not DOCTRINALLY to you either.

3. Again, dealing doctirnally with unsaved Jews or even Genitles in the coming tribulation. Saints have never been likened to dogs and pigs - these are terms to describe lost people.

Again, I don't expect you to take my explanation for the above - I belive in the right division method of Bible study - II Tim. 2:15 - every text has it's place for who and when God intended it to be for.

I read all the Bible and believe all the Bible but I know what books are for me doctrinally first and they are mainly found from Romans thru Philemon. I get application teaching from all books but the doctrine must first be judged by Paul, the apostles to the Gentiels, who got his teaching dirceting from the resurrected Saviour.

Again, at least throw me a bone for trying to answer honestly.

May God bless

ThienAn said:

I don't think anyone can "undo" what Christ did on the cross, but I think a person can reject it. Lucifer, an angel in heaven, who, supposedly cannot make a choice to defy God, and yet he did. What makes anyone think with absolute certainty that humans, who have choices, can never fall away from God?

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Thanks for your comments - sounds good - but comparing Lucifer before the fall to the redeemd saint in the body of Christ today makes good preaching but it just won't fit. I've also heard people tell me Judas was a good example of one who can lose his salvation - the only problem with that was I respectfully pointed out that Judas was a devil.

I thank the Lord that my salvation is not dependent upon my moods, wishes, and rejections after I was saved for I wouldn't have a prayer!

Have a nice day!

geocajun said:

Well at least you did try to answer them, thanks for giving it your best shot
1. I do disagree, because each instance talks about people who "have come to the know Jesus" and then were "broken off" or "turned back".
1. (Romans 11:20-22)
2. (Hebrews 10:26-29)
3. (2 Peter 2:20-22)
2. Also, your comment about Hebrews "being a thorn in the side" of believers is disturbing.

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1. If this was the case then all the God did for the saint would amount to nothing - Christ's death would be in vain and nobody would go to heaven for none can hold up to the standards you and others have come up with in order to keep with your salvation. The fact that Paul did not cover how to lose ones' salvation in his main epistles tells me these references you are concerned about do not conern individuals under this age of grace.

2. "Thorn in the flesh" - I meant they are tough to understand and always causes problems - I was in no way taking a shot at the scriptures. I understand it is me who is the problem if something is hard to understand. So here, at least, we are in agreement.

Also, I do not undertand why people insist that one can lose their salvation. I would think one would spend more time on trying so see eternal security as Paul taught than finding difficult verses that dealt with the Jews before Calvary or during the tribulation.

Bottom line - what is a person counting on to get them to heaven? If one is counting on himself to keep from losing it or from sinning away his salvation then I submit that person is counting on himself to get to heaven thus making the faith and work of Christ of no affect.

I am counting on the finished work of Christ for I could not satisfy God's demand in any shape or form. I am a poor sinner resting in the righteousness of Christ alone for salvation.

I am curious - what was your thoughts on my response to Shelb5 - I feel I expounded the work at Calvary very cleary using scripture. The post that started out with:

"Shelb5 – I’m not sure what you are driving at or your motive in this is but I will continue for one more post. After looking at your above question I went to the Lord in prayer and this is what I have to say on the matter."

Yes, it was long but yet all I did was point us to Christ alone for salvation.

May God bless

geocajun said:

1. Christ came, and died, and in that He reconsiled man and God again along with leaving us a way back in, through our repentence if we should happen to sin again.
2. So yes, when we are born again, into The Body of Christ through baptism, we are saved and have benefited from the Merits of Christ, in that we are now completely without sin and undefiled to God.
3. That does not mean we stay that way though, but if we sin again (turn away from God) we can repent of it, by turning back to God, and return to our baptismal (saved) state.

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1. Again I believe the scriptures teach our repentance can do nothing in regards to our standing. Do you repent for every sin that you committ? Do you know of every sin you commint or do you just conentrate on those "big and outward" sins? If our standing depends upon our repenting for them then our life would be one of repentance for 24 hours a day for 365 days a year - my what a life of joy that would be
When Christ died for your sins 2000 years ago which ones did he die for?

2. Here we go again, putting trust into an outward work, baptism.

3. This cycle of sinning, repenting, turning back, sinning, turning back, sinning, turning back, etc. is not the Christian life. One can't posssibly keep that up for ever!

Christ did not just die to open the door for us and then it is up to us to enter in by our works. Christ died once and shed his blood once.

Again, I know what Rome teaches and I feel Rome is wrong on justification. Rome is placing its trust in a system for salvation. The scriptures teach placing trust in the resurrected Saviour and what He did at Calvary alone.

If someone were to ask me what I am counting on to get me to heaven I can answer in one word - Christ.

May God bless and it has been nice chatting with you.

Netpreacher said:

1. Every Calvinist I have ever met has used their doctrine to excuse themselves from true service to God.
2.When a non-believer hears about the doctrines of Calvin, especially U and P, it causes them to not try anymore. Some may say, "Well good! Let God do it instead!" However, hasn't God made us to participate in this great salvation, or do we take a backseat?
3. I believe Bunyan, Huss, and Knox were right, but Luther and Calvin had some very dissappointing moments that cause me to reject the whole idea.

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1. And if they really believed that then shame on them - the crowd I run with and the ones I read from don't believe that - they witnessed, wrote, read, worked, laboured until they dropped. Most of the great missionaries of the past were Calvinist in their doctrine but they went to the mission fields!

2. That is precisely why I don't discuss these types of things in front of the lost - they cannot understand anything spiritual anyway until they are saved. I don't even discuss Calvinsism with new believers - I do on this forum because it is a forum.

3. Don't let the wrong works of a few men who had feet of clay like us all turn you away from some great truths.

Later

Netpreacher said:

Do you discount Hebrews and James as being under a different dispensation? How can you reconcile verses in Romans which speak of individuals of Israel who are cast out, while the whole was saved? The church will never be destroyed, but individual members, if they lose faith, will lose their standing in the church.

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Netpreacher - good questions and I'd like to respond - right now time is gone and my brain cells are up in smoke from today's posting

By the way - I like you signature, some good stuff - good stand!

Shelb5 said:

AV,

I read your post and must ask do you realize that Catholics make satisfaction for their sins both big and small through the sacrifice of the mass (which is Calvary for those who don't know).

Do you feel that satisfaction must be made for your sins post being born again?

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Shelb5 – I don’t think I have it in me to go much further with this issue – what I have put down in writing earlier about what I believe about justification and then answer the questions took it all out of me for now - sorry. I don’t just cut and paste I seek to put down what I’ve digested over the years and this can be taxing on the ole’ brain cells. “I read your post and must ask do you realize that Catholics make satisfaction for their sins both big and small through the sacrifice of the mass (which is Calvary for those who don't know).”

I definitely don’t want to go into the mass issue much – I understand what Rome teaches about the mass and I have researched its origins (read “Two Babylons” by Hislop – irrefutable evidence written in the 1800’s). I will state what I believe without seeking to defend it much.

Suffice it to say – Calvary and the mass are not the same. Calvary was instituted by God to take care of the sin question ONCE AND FOR ALL – Heb. 10:10. The Catholic mass was instituted by Babylon and Rome picked it up to keep its people tied to them – very sad. I truly feel that if you prayerfully studied what I posted regarding justification (not my words but the expounding of God’s word) you would not be concerned about the mass, confessions, etc. and anything else ever again regarding your sins – you would be free in Christ to live a holy life without the threat of eternal judgment.

”Do you feel that satisfaction must be made for your sins post being born again?”

Satisfaction for all my sins – past, present, and future – were made for me by Christ one time at Calvary – never to be repeated again. To ask God to forgive me for my sins all the time would be telling God that the death of His precious Son was not good enough was. God looks at the real me (the one in Christ seated at the right hand of the Father) as just and perfect for all eternity.

I have told you that my sins are gone, under the blood of the Saviour, who died for me. When I sin I seek to recognize my failure, acknowledge them to my heavenly Father, thank Him for the forgiveness that I already have and then by the power of the Holy Spirit in me seek to go and sin no more.

Now, with that it is time to wrap this up. If you are truly seeking and desire to go on because you are seeking the peace that only Christ can give then I will stay with your concerns until the Lord gives you peace about the matter.

May God bless!


Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mark the Builder said:

Netpreacher -- are you saying that Christians never sin??? mark

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I'm curious Netpreacher - I'd like to see your answer also. I would think Netpreacher that you really didn't mean that.