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Saruman said:
I'd be careful - not everthing that comes from Christians is of Christ.
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Fantasy : Good or Bad
- Thread starter Eagle's Wind
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I'd be careful - not everthing that comes from Christians is of Christ.
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Nienor said:
I'm sorry. Your too young and not even married to know that inappropriate content IS NOT REAL.
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PaladinValer
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PaladinValer
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Eagle's Wind said:
You are using a logical fallacy. You said (paraphrasing here) that the "fantasy caused by inappropriate content" is evil, so fantasy is evil." Not all fantasy is inappropriate content, so you cannot deduce that, since inappropriate content is wrong, all fantasy is wrong. It is an invalid statement.
In addition, inappropriate content isn't of the fantasy genre. Fallacy of Equivocation. Just because inappropriate content creates a "fantasy" situation among people doesn't make inappropriate content in and of itself fantasy. It is inappropriate content.
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stonetoflesh
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Man, this thread is starting to get a little ugly... It's always frustrating when one person who has had a bad experience with something-- whether it's fantasy novels, D&D, secular music, whatever-- decides that they have to convince everyone else it's just as bad for them. I've been reading fantasy novels for 20+ years and playing D&D almost as long; I'm stronger in my faith at this point in time than I have ever been. I appreciate your concern for your fellow Christians, EW, but I'm not going to stop doing what I enjoy doing if it doesn't hinder my walk with Christ.
Regarding the equivocation of inappropriate content with fantasy novels-- that just seems kinda ridiculous. Sure, inappropriate contentography is "fantasy" of a sort (in that it allows the viewer to vicariously fulfill fantasies of desirability, power, lust and so on "in the real world" through the experiences of the "actors"), but I wouldn't equate it with the fantasy genre any more than I would Agatha Christie mysteries or spy novels. A person who feels physically undesirable or (for whatever reason) sexually unfulfilled in their marriage/relationship isn't going to read Tolkien or get a D&D game going for stimulation or vicarious sexual gratification. (If they did, that would just be creepy!)
Regarding the equivocation of inappropriate content with fantasy novels-- that just seems kinda ridiculous. Sure, inappropriate contentography is "fantasy" of a sort (in that it allows the viewer to vicariously fulfill fantasies of desirability, power, lust and so on "in the real world" through the experiences of the "actors"), but I wouldn't equate it with the fantasy genre any more than I would Agatha Christie mysteries or spy novels. A person who feels physically undesirable or (for whatever reason) sexually unfulfilled in their marriage/relationship isn't going to read Tolkien or get a D&D game going for stimulation or vicarious sexual gratification. (If they did, that would just be creepy!)
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PaladinValer
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The Theory
Bagpipes well could he blow.
I feel awkward doing this in the middle of a serious discussion... but it was getting too heated anyway...ApopkaDad said:
I've read both of the ones out (Dragonspell & Candlestone) and think they're some of the more groudbreaking fantasy novels I've read in a while. I have tended to fairly wary of Christian fantasy (quality wise), but read Donita K. Paul's "Raising Dragons" and fell in love with that. Her site recommended your books so I read them, too, and was very surprised.
Anyway, good job.
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Blackmarch
Legend
Eagle's Wind said:The Lord's been dealing with my heart now for a few months and I came to a few conclusions that I would like to share with others and get your encouragement, feedback, or difference of opinion.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s.I was heavily involved with D&D and fantasy novels. Through a series of events I came to the Lord and was delivered out of these games. The grip that they had on my life was astonishing. The fear, dread and oppression is something that is difficult to even put into words. It's scary to look back and wonder where I would be today if I continue.
20 years later...
Over the past few years I've been caught up with the Christian Fantasy trend. The amount of the Fantasy Christian Books on the market has boomed. It all stared when I picked up Karen H. Arena.
I immediately liked it and I wanted more. I did a search and found The Last Guardian by Shane Johnson. It's been three years now and I've read about 40 Christian fantasies.
All during that time I felt that the Lord was dealing with me. "How could you go back to the very thing that I've brought you out of," I felt as though He was asking.
I kept asking questions:
What does this do for God's glory?
Can I see Christ in this fantasy?
Are there abilities mentioned that in reality Christians should avoid like a plague?
Is there a sense of weirdness and bizarre?
Could others who were brought out of the occult and RPGs be tempted to go back by reading such books. (I wasn't BUT if it could would it be right for me to be reading at all?)
These are questions that I personal believe that I can no longer avoid. As of today I've decided to avoid three types of books:
1. Books that would be considered Weird or Bizarre.
2. Books where people have abilities that would normally be called witchcraft in reality.
3. Books of the Fantasy family all together.
I tossed $$$$$ of books in the dumpster and can't honestly say that I'm at all happy right now.
Any comments?
Fantasy can be very good and teaching; C.S. Lewis's Narnian Chronicles are allusory/allegory of the Gospel.
Then there are fantasy-scifi books that are not much better than inappropriate content.
It depends on which book.
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Wow! Thanks for the vote of confidence!The Theory said:
I hope you don't mind me correcting the titles. Donita K. Paul wrote "Dragonspell," and did an awesome job. The first two books in my series are "Raising Dragons" and "The Candlestone." I'm glad you enjoyed them so much.
By the way (shameless plug ahead), the third book in my series, "Circles of Seven," will be out in April. Donita's second book, Dragonquest, will be out in June. I hope you like them just as much.
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The Theory
Bagpipes well could he blow.
yeah, thats what i get for not proof reading.
*on topic*
I have to agree with some previous comments in the thread... if you feel like God is calling you away from fantasy books, more power to you. I think that if anything becomes too big in our life, whether it is a certain genre of books, music, television... regardless of the spiritual content (or lackthereof)... then it is a distraction from God and becomes an idol in our life.
I know I have many of those I need to work on.
*on topic*
I have to agree with some previous comments in the thread... if you feel like God is calling you away from fantasy books, more power to you. I think that if anything becomes too big in our life, whether it is a certain genre of books, music, television... regardless of the spiritual content (or lackthereof)... then it is a distraction from God and becomes an idol in our life.
I know I have many of those I need to work on.
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Llauralin
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Definitely, if you feel that God is calling you to give up fantasy books, you should do so.
On the general issue of the goodness or badness of the fantasy genre, I would submit that there is nothing wrong with fantasy as fantasy, but that it is important to hold it to some fairly high standards as literature. Basically, I consider it essential to consider what constitutes good literature, and evaluate any work on such a standard, weather it's fantasy, Christian fiction, thriller, historical fiction, or whatever. First, my definition of "good" may include style, because I have little patience with clumsy writing when there's so much better stuff out there, but is primarily based upon the piece's ability to portray Truth. A piece of literature has the capacity to show us essential truths about human nature, the nature of the universe, and shine a light on many dark places; sometimes for the good, sometimes not. Every genre presents it's own natural strengths and weaknesses; biographies may present startling pictures of what Man is, in all his highs and lows, fiction may show in a scene, in a story, the wisdom philosophers speak about in all their volumes (Read Dostievsky or Les Miserables). Fantasy, at it's best, presents a unique, wonderful, and all too often misused opportunity to reflect the image of the Creator, through creating ourselves - little microcosms which may either illumine or obscure Truth, Beauty, Goodness, Love, and the darknesses which must be opposed. The thing to consider is, what is this particular piece using it's power for good or ill? Is it an honest attempt to reflect the glory and adventure of creation, or merely a cheap thrill ride? I would say that the main failing of Christian fiction generally (I haven't read much Christian fantasy) is merely that the modern stuff is too safe, too bland, is not willing to take a risk, state plainly the real risks, the real darks and lights with any power or conviction; frankly, they lack heart and style. There are probably some good ones, I just don't know them.
Of course, my theory doesn't always come through in my choices; I make mistakes, and read lousy novels (Most of Terry Brook's books have definitely been a wast of time, as have several of Silverburg's), but, in the end, the reason for reading fantasy os exactly the same as reading any other book, and, ideally, all that we read may be edifying. From my experiences (admittedly not the broadest) I would recommend Phantestes and Lilith by George MacDonald, The Lord of the Rings (of course), The Song of Albion, by Stephen Lawhead, Till We Have Faces by C. S. Lewis and maybe (I'm not quite sure about this one) the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson - most of the other good books I've read have not been fantasy.
I hope all that made sense... :o
On the general issue of the goodness or badness of the fantasy genre, I would submit that there is nothing wrong with fantasy as fantasy, but that it is important to hold it to some fairly high standards as literature. Basically, I consider it essential to consider what constitutes good literature, and evaluate any work on such a standard, weather it's fantasy, Christian fiction, thriller, historical fiction, or whatever. First, my definition of "good" may include style, because I have little patience with clumsy writing when there's so much better stuff out there, but is primarily based upon the piece's ability to portray Truth. A piece of literature has the capacity to show us essential truths about human nature, the nature of the universe, and shine a light on many dark places; sometimes for the good, sometimes not. Every genre presents it's own natural strengths and weaknesses; biographies may present startling pictures of what Man is, in all his highs and lows, fiction may show in a scene, in a story, the wisdom philosophers speak about in all their volumes (Read Dostievsky or Les Miserables). Fantasy, at it's best, presents a unique, wonderful, and all too often misused opportunity to reflect the image of the Creator, through creating ourselves - little microcosms which may either illumine or obscure Truth, Beauty, Goodness, Love, and the darknesses which must be opposed. The thing to consider is, what is this particular piece using it's power for good or ill? Is it an honest attempt to reflect the glory and adventure of creation, or merely a cheap thrill ride? I would say that the main failing of Christian fiction generally (I haven't read much Christian fantasy) is merely that the modern stuff is too safe, too bland, is not willing to take a risk, state plainly the real risks, the real darks and lights with any power or conviction; frankly, they lack heart and style. There are probably some good ones, I just don't know them.
Of course, my theory doesn't always come through in my choices; I make mistakes, and read lousy novels (Most of Terry Brook's books have definitely been a wast of time, as have several of Silverburg's), but, in the end, the reason for reading fantasy os exactly the same as reading any other book, and, ideally, all that we read may be edifying. From my experiences (admittedly not the broadest) I would recommend Phantestes and Lilith by George MacDonald, The Lord of the Rings (of course), The Song of Albion, by Stephen Lawhead, Till We Have Faces by C. S. Lewis and maybe (I'm not quite sure about this one) the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson - most of the other good books I've read have not been fantasy.
I hope all that made sense... :o
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Allow me to ask, do you believe that witchcraft is an abomination to God?
Do you believe that practicing witchcraft is an abomination to God?
Do you believe that entertaining yourself by watching people practice witchcraft is an abomination to God?
Lastly, Do you believe that entertaining yourself by pretending to practice witchcraft is an abomination to God?
NOW PEOPLE WHO ARE READING THIS POST: You will either do one of three things.
1. Ignore these questions.
2. Answer these questions in a way that is consistent with Scripture.
3. Or you will choose to be stupid!
Do you believe that practicing witchcraft is an abomination to God?
Do you believe that entertaining yourself by watching people practice witchcraft is an abomination to God?
Lastly, Do you believe that entertaining yourself by pretending to practice witchcraft is an abomination to God?
NOW PEOPLE WHO ARE READING THIS POST: You will either do one of three things.
1. Ignore these questions.
2. Answer these questions in a way that is consistent with Scripture.
3. Or you will choose to be stupid!
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I believe there is good fantasy, and bad fantasy. Good fantasy has a good moral to the story. Bad fantasy gives the message that anything bad is good, etc. Stay with the good fantasy, and you will be better off.
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PaladinValer
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Eagle's Wind, same Fallacy of Equivocation.
You need to prove that the "magic" in fantasy:
1. Works (good luck there...)
2. Is based on actual magical practice not simply to "flesh it out" (Otherwise you can simply throw out the classic fantasy of King Arthur)
3. Is based on a religious belief that isn't "made up" (ie: doesn't exist on Earth)
For example, Harry Potter's "magic" is based off of one woman's colorful imagination. There has never been a culture or people that used sticks ~1 foot long with a hair or feather of some real fantasic beast (unicorn, pheonix, dragon, etc) to wave in a certain way while saying a word or two or a phrase of Latin. To argue that this is "witchcraft" would make anyone whose ever scholarly studied the phenomenon of cultural religious beliefs laugh until they gasp for air after rolling around in the ground:
1. It doesn't work
2. It is not based on any real magical practice
3. It has no religious conotation to it.
Now, please prove that the entire fantasy genre is "evil" or "promotes 'witchcraft';" you cannot as I just showed how just one isn't. All - 1 = Not All.
You need to prove that the "magic" in fantasy:
1. Works (good luck there...)
2. Is based on actual magical practice not simply to "flesh it out" (Otherwise you can simply throw out the classic fantasy of King Arthur)
3. Is based on a religious belief that isn't "made up" (ie: doesn't exist on Earth)
For example, Harry Potter's "magic" is based off of one woman's colorful imagination. There has never been a culture or people that used sticks ~1 foot long with a hair or feather of some real fantasic beast (unicorn, pheonix, dragon, etc) to wave in a certain way while saying a word or two or a phrase of Latin. To argue that this is "witchcraft" would make anyone whose ever scholarly studied the phenomenon of cultural religious beliefs laugh until they gasp for air after rolling around in the ground:
1. It doesn't work
2. It is not based on any real magical practice
3. It has no religious conotation to it.
Now, please prove that the entire fantasy genre is "evil" or "promotes 'witchcraft';" you cannot as I just showed how just one isn't. All - 1 = Not All.
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I enjoy good Christian fantasy, and I think the merit / edification value of such books can be no less than that of any other genre of fiction. Karen Hancock's The Light of Eidon, and the sequel, The Shadow Within are two great examples of such literature, not to mention Chronicles of Narnia.
The problem is, good Christian fantasy books are hard to find. There are not many of them, and most Christians are still to discover this genre.
Check out this recommended reading list I've found on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/3HCA8Y8XFIIXH/ref=cm_lm_lists/102-2833978-9381727
Amy
The problem is, good Christian fantasy books are hard to find. There are not many of them, and most Christians are still to discover this genre.
Check out this recommended reading list I've found on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/3HCA8Y8XFIIXH/ref=cm_lm_lists/102-2833978-9381727
Amy
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PaladinValer said:
So what your saying is this - if it's not real it's OK to pretend?
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Amy said:
Amy said:
I read both books and thought (at one time ) they were outstanding! I was a little taken back by the sexual promiscuity in the first book.
She has a very interesting article http://www.kmhancock.com/Fantasy.htm
But like I said - I can no longer excuse what I've been feeling in my spirit. AND IT'S NOT JUST PERSONAL. You have to ask yourself what influences are involved here? What has influenced an increase of Christian Fantasy novels? Would Jesus use Fantasy style writing to teach Biblical truths. Some would say He has BUT would He use a story with people who have abilities that we are taught in His word to avoid. It just doesn't make any common sense.
No, I'm not being dogmatic. It is possible that a fantasy story could be fine. However, looking at the influences involved - the world's fascination with the bizarre, science fiction, and magic I can't help but come away with the feeling that the enemy has come in and deceived us. I believe that this is a tactic of the enemy to desensitize us to an entertainment that will draw us further from a loving relationship with God and hinder us becoming more Christ-like.
When I see the books that Karen in her article endorses I shake my head.
Even when I was a fan I was greatly disturbed!
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