Reality and fantasy

[Akita Suggagaki]

I think we all realize that it is quite easy to convince ourselves. That is, to believe what we want to believe. I think for a good chunk of my life I lived in a naïve fantasy. I am not telling anyone that their beliefs are fantasies, but how do we guard against slipping into fantastical thinking? It is easy to find the speck in a brother's or sister's eye. But what about our own.

I am thinking first that we have to be humble enough to accept the possibility that we might be wrong.
Then we have to be able to look at the same information in a different way.

 

[zippy2006]

Most reasoning errs on account of intemperance (love of pleasure and aversion to pain). Temperance (sophrosyne) is therefore the primary key to sound reasoning, as removing the usual impediments.

Pride is a cause of the persistence of false beliefs, and the failure to rectify them. On the other hand, humility is not the same as having weakly-held beliefs or being unsure of oneself.

The naivete of the baby boomers—which was then passed on—has to do with the circumstances of their time. Material success and prosperity were common during their lifetime, and the assumption grew that it had always been that way and always would be that way. Not all erroneous opinion is naive fantasy, but I think this is the cause of the naive fantasy that is now quickly diminishing in the U.S.

Generally speaking, one must adjust the weight of their beliefs to the strength of their evidence and expertise. In the U.S. I have noticed that many have nothing near a robust understanding of error, and in consequence cannot conceive of how they might ever be wrong. Thus, as an example, Westerners cannot even conceive of what is happening in the Middle East. They half-doubt that it is occurring. We have grown so accustomed to giving everyone A's, "being nice," saying, "It's the thought that counts," and, "He tried his best, no one can fault him," that we are now several steps removed from being able to conceive of how error is even possible. We have grown so accustomed to making excuses that we can no longer discern good behavior from bad behavior, truth from falsity.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Most reasoning errs on account of intemperance (love of pleasure and aversion to pain). Temperance (sophrosyne) is therefore the primary key to sound reasoning, as removing the usual impediments.

Pride is a cause of the persistence of false beliefs, and the failure to rectify them. On the other hand, humility is not the same as having weakly-held beliefs or being unsure of oneself.

Introducing the virtue of temperance gave me something new to think about in this context. I often think of intemperance as over indulgence.

We have grown so accustomed to making excuses that we can no longer discern good behavior from bad behavior, truth from falsity.

We have diminished the capacity for discernment. How do we regain it? Temperance, humility, a serious virtue approach to living.
I like ol Benjamin franklin's idea of charting his progress on virtues.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think we all realize that it is quite easy to convince ourselves. That is, to believe what we want to believe. I think for a good chunk of my life I lived in a naïve fantasy. I am not telling anyone that their beliefs are fantasies, but how do we guard against slipping into fantastical thinking? It is easy to find the speck in a brother's or sister's eye. But what about our own.

I am thinking first that we have to be humble enough to accept the possibility that we might be wrong.
Then we have to be able to look at the same information in a different way.

I have just three words for this phenomenon: Dunning....................................Kruger............................................Politics

What should we do about it? There's unfortunately little that can be done in a world that doesn't, on the whole, appreciate applications of Critical Thinking but which instead prefers Magical Thinking.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have just three words for this phenomenon: Dunning....................................Kruger............................................Politics

Most reasoning errs on account of intemperance (love of pleasure and aversion to pain). Temperance (sophrosyne) is therefore the primary key to sound reasoning, as removing the usual impediments.

Pride is a cause of the persistence of false beliefs, and the failure to rectify them. On the other hand, humility is not the same as having weakly-held beliefs or being unsure of oneself.

The naivete of the baby boomers—which was then passed on—has to do with the circumstances of their time. Material success and prosperity were common during their lifetime, and the assumption grew that it had always been that way and always would be that way. Not all erroneous opinion is naive fantasy, but I think this is the cause of the naive fantasy that is now quickly diminishing in the U.S.

Generally speaking, one must adjust the weight of their beliefs to the strength of their evidence and expertise. In the U.S. I have noticed that many have nothing near a robust understanding of error, and in consequence cannot conceive of how they might ever be wrong. Thus, as an example, Westerners cannot even conceive of what is happening in the Middle East. They half-doubt that it is occurring. We have grown so accustomed to giving everyone A's, "being nice," saying, "It's the thought that counts," and, "He tried his best, no one can fault him," that we are now several steps removed from being able to conceive of how error is even possible. We have grown so accustomed to making excuses that we can no longer discern good behavior from bad behavior, truth from falsity.

Today's epistemic tendencies toward error are just yesterday's notions dressed up in new clothes.

You're right in what you've generally said, but all of what you're citing, Zippy, isn't anything new.

Moreover, sometimes what we take as "Pride" manifested in the attitude of any one person can often be more psychologically complicated than what the Bible alone, or an insistence toward the acquisition of a disposition of humility, can address.

Sometimes, the error and resistence we're encountering is really people's disguised pain and fear flooding over.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Sometimes, the error and resistance we're encountering is really people's disguised pain and fear flooding over.

That is a very compassionate approach to keep in mind.

 

[zippy2006]

Introducing the virtue of temperance gave me something new to think about in this context. I often think of intemperance as over indulgence.

Right, and it's helpful to keep the ancient virtue of sophrosyne somewhat distinct from our more modern concept.*

We have diminished the capacity for discernment. How do we regain it? Temperance, humility, a serious virtue approach to living.
I like ol Benjamin franklin's idea of charting his progress on virtues.

I think practice, prayer, and grace are the three keys to change, although theory and psychological counseling also has its place. So Franklin's idea seems worthwhile.

In our culture there are two vices against temperance in particular that have a devastating effect on thinking: gluttony and lust. If, as a society, we can become temperate even to the degree that food, drink, and sex do not dominate our desires, I believe our thinking would greatly improve.

* Joseph Pieper is always good on these subjects. For example:

There is a passage that I want to read from the, the book called Four Cardinal Virtues by Josef Pieper. And the chapter on temperance says the following: “A study of the linguistic meaning of the Greek term, sophrosyne, and of the Latin temperantia [temperance] reveals a much wider range of significance. The original meaning of the Greek word embraces ‘directing reason’ in the widest sense. And the Latin stays close to this far ranging significance. In St. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians (12, 24f.) we read: Deus temperavit corpus.” God tempered the body, so to speak. And here's the quote in English: “Thus God established a harmony in the body, giving special honor to that which needed it most. There was to be no want of unity in the body, all the different parts of it were to make each other's welfare, their common care.” End quote. That's from St. Paul. Pieper continues, “the primary and essential meaning of temperance, therefore, is this, to dispose various parts into one unified and ordered whole.” So this is what temperance does, it gives us unity of life—unity of, of all the aspects of our, our body, our physical body, you know, and, and it allows us to then have a mind that is spiritual so that we're not attached to the material world. And, and so that when we don't have all these, this disordered passions that go each in another direction, each in its own direction, wanting us to just indulge in, in their own specific pleasurable specificity, you know, so the stomach wants to eat food, and the tongue wants to taste food and, and, you know, all that. And, we want to drink and be merry, but we cannot do it outside of the boundaries of reason. And for a Christian, the boundaries of reason enlightened by faith, which is actually not a boundary at all, it's actually a liberating, a liberating thing. It's, it liberates us so that we can then love God and have harmony within our body. (source)​

 

[eleos1954]

I think we all realize that it is quite easy to convince ourselves. That is, to believe what we want to believe. I think for a good chunk of my life I lived in a naïve fantasy. I am not telling anyone that their beliefs are fantasies, but how do we guard against slipping into fantastical thinking? It is easy to find the speck in a brother's or sister's eye. But what about our own.

I am thinking first that we have to be humble enough to accept the possibility that we might be wrong.
Then we have to be able to look at the same information in a different way.

All of us need to do a self examination of ourselves ... is our life trending toward sin ... or ... away from it. The Word of God is what keeps us from a state of confusion and how the Lord calls us to live our lives.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

nd for a Christian, the boundaries of reason enlightened by faith, which is actually not a boundary at all, it's actually a liberating, a liberating thing. It's, it liberates us so that we can then love God and have harmony within our body.

Yes, liberation from our fallen selves...in harmony with ourselves.

But it is more than just words. I find it a daily challenge. We all have our own ideas about what is true, how to interpret the Bible, the Good News, how to apply it to daily life. I think k it was Bonaventure who talked about how "bent" we are in our fallen nature on that journey of the mind into God..

 

[Justin1029]

Our biggest enemies, in this order, are self, sin and satan. Our weapons: Holy Spirit, the Word of God, prayer, fellowship with other true believers, worship and music which truly glorifies Abba/Jesus Lord and Savior/Holy Spirit, constantly striving to be more like Jesus each and every day, learning about spiritual warfare in general and applying it our lives and the lives of others as God brings them into our sanctification journeys.
#ReformedANDCharismatic
In Christ Alone,
Justin Sturz

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Sometimes, the error and resistence we're encountering is really people's disguised pain and fear flooding over.

Have you been reading Atlas of the Heart? In it Brene Brown states, "I understood that people would do almost anything to not feel pain, including causing pain and abusing power, and I understood that there were very few people whop could handle being held accountable for causing hurt without rationalizing, blaming or shutting down."

I am still in the Introduction and highlighting a storm.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Have you been reading Atlas of the Heart? In it Brene Brown states, "I understood that people would do almost anything to not feel pain, including causing pain and abusing power, and I understood that there were very few people whop could handle being held accountable for causing hurt without rationalizing, blaming or shutting down."

I am still in the Introduction and highlighting a storm.

I haven't heard of Brene Brown, but it sounds like an interesting read, Akita.

 

[Stephen3141]

I think we all realize that it is quite easy to convince ourselves. That is, to believe what we want to believe. I think for a good chunk of my life I lived in a naïve fantasy. I am not telling anyone that their beliefs are fantasies, but how do we guard against slipping into fantastical thinking? It is easy to find the speck in a brother's or sister's eye. But what about our own.

I am thinking first that we have to be humble enough to accept the possibility that we might be wrong.
Then we have to be able to look at the same information in a different way.

I think that this is really a very big question.

I would rephrase the topic, this way.

The Bible presents a picture of what our shared reality is like.
(This is not a personal fantasy, and I am not addressing what is not in this shared reality.)
This shared reality, from the Bible's point of view, is VERY IMPORTANT, because
we are commanded to bear true witness about this shared reality. (Or, saying this
another way, we are commanded NOT to bear false witness about this shared
reality. Bearing false witness, in the Bible is called LYING.
And lying, is a sin that can keep us out of the kingdom of heaven.)

The Bible's definition of "Lying", takes this topic out of the realm of
personal preference.

Our shared reality, as the Bible presents it, includes a number of COMPONENTS.
Some of these are...

1 our physical universe
2 biological life
3 God's moral-ethical code, revealed to each of us through a conscience
4 God's written revelation to us (the Bible)
5 God's existence and power, through the power and beauty of nature
6 abstract ideas (such as "ownership")
7 God's interactions with human beings, in certain events in the past
8 valid reasoning methods (such as formal logic, and estimation methods)
...

We are morally-ethically responsible for, before God, what we perceive
in this shared reality (by paying attention, and searching), and HOW we
perceive evidence in this shared reality.

It is true that we can perceive this shared reality differently than the
Bible presents it. We can choose NOT to perceive parts of our shared reality.
We can avoid searching for truth.
We can be intellectually lazy, and so misunderstand our shared reality.
We could not care about telling the truth, and so prefer to make up a
reality that pleases us.


It is not that we do not perceive reality as the Bible presents reality.
It is more that, if we honesty seek truth, as a moral ought, then we
will begin to perceive our shared reality as the Bible presents it.


I think that this is a better approach to finding truth, and properly
perceiving our shared reality.

(By the way...
If we choose to get high on drugs, then we are living in an altered perceived reality.
But it is not living in our shared reality.
If we believe conspiracy theories, then we are surrounding ourselves with stories
and gossip and explanations that HAVE NOT BEEN GROUNDED IN EVIDENCE FROM
OUR SHARED REALITY. So believing conspiracy theories, is one way of lying about
our shared reality.)

 

[Stephen3141]

(By the way, one basic topic that Christians need to address, is how to
justify that their initial premises, in a proof, are TRUE. I am trying to
discuss this in the thread "Formal Logic" How to Justify that Initial Premises are True.

But, we do this ALSO when we consider CHANGING what we believe, by
rejecting some belief we used to accept, or accepting a new belief that we
did not previously accept.

When we accept a new belief, we may have to ADJUST the rest of
our belief system. And Christians should talk honestly about how we
can responsibly do that.)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think we all realize that it is quite easy to convince ourselves. That is, to believe what we want to believe. I think for a good chunk of my life I lived in a naïve fantasy. I am not telling anyone that their beliefs are fantasies, but how do we guard against slipping into fantastical thinking? It is easy to find the speck in a brother's or sister's eye. But what about our own.

I am thinking first that we have to be humble enough to accept the possibility that we might be wrong.
Then we have to be able to look at the same information in a different way.

Actually, I've never found it easy to "convince" myself of anything where belief in either religion or the supernatural is a central focus. I don't believe what I "want" to believe. I believe what I am able to grasp and understand. As for my comprehension and apprehension of the Christian faith, it has all been one big, laborious project, and one that still isn't finished on either an epistemological level nor a moral level.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel you've existed within a sense of, as you put it, "naïve fantasy." But truthfully, when I read your posts, I would never think that about you, Akita. You seem like a reasonable fellow to me. I'd hardly apply the term "naïve" to you.

But, if you do feel like you fall in to fantastical thinking, well, you're not alone. We live in a hard world, and today, at least in the U.S., there are all forms and manners of escapism by which numerous people engage in order to cope with the difficulties we each wake up to every day. We're all looking for better answers in life. I'd be the first one to say that I'd like an antidote to life's difficulties and the final exit we all have to face. I'm putting my Wager on Jesus to get me out of all of this, and if some folks want to think that I'm simply "believing what I want to believe," I pretty sure they'd shelve that assessment if they knew all that I've had to mentally sift through in order to even see that Pascal's Wager is a reasonable one.

With that, I also heartily affirm the last two sentences you've written in your OP here. Those are so true!

​

I am thinking first that we have to be humble enough to accept the possibility that we might be wrong.​

Then we have to be able to look at the same information in a different way. ​

 

[public hermit]

I think we all realize that it is quite easy to convince ourselves. That is, to believe what we want to believe. I think for a good chunk of my life I lived in a naïve fantasy. I am not telling anyone that their beliefs are fantasies, but how do we guard against slipping into fantastical thinking? It is easy to find the speck in a brother's or sister's eye. But what about our own.

I am thinking first that we have to be humble enough to accept the possibility that we might be wrong.
Then we have to be able to look at the same information in a different way.

Doxastic humility is a virtue rarely promoted among Xns, but it should be, I think. I think Christians should cultivate some form of fallibilism to avoid pride and epistemic arrogance.

Fallibilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

iep.utm.edu

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The Bible presents a picture of what our shared reality is like.

It does indeed. But then we bring our interpretations and limited understandings. We must always be open to development.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

(By the way, one basic topic that Christians need to address, is how to
justify that their initial premises, in a proof, are TRUE. I am trying to
discuss this in the thread "Formal Logic" How to Justify that Initial Premises are True.

But, we do this ALSO when we consider CHANGING what we believe, by
rejecting some belief we used to accept, or accepting a new belief that we
did not previously accept.

When we accept a new belief, we may have to ADJUST the rest of
our belief system. And Christians should talk honestly about how we
can responsibly do that.)

I agree very much with this concern for justification, change, rejecting and adjusting.
It is what we do when we grow. But we all seem to take different paths with our new premises.
We don't always agree on our justifications.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Actually, I've never found it easy to "convince" myself of anything where belief in either religion or the supernatural is a central focus. I don't believe what I "want" to believe. I believe what I am able to grasp and understand. As for my comprehension and apprehension of the Christian faith, it has all been one big, laborious project, and one that still isn't finished on either an epistemological level nor a moral level.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel you've existed within a sense of, as you put it, "naïve fantasy." But truthfully, when I read your posts, I would never think that about you, Akita. You seem like a reasonable fellow to me. I'd hardly apply the term "naïve" to you.

But, if you do feel like you fall in to fantastical thinking, well, you're not alone. We live in a hard world, and today, at least in the U.S., there are all forms and manners of escapism by which numerous people engage in order to cope with the difficulties we each wake up to every day. We're all looking for better answers in life. I'd be the first one to say that I'd like an antidote to life's difficulties and the final exit we all have to face. I'm putting my Wager on Jesus to get me out of all of this, and if some folks want to think that I'm simply "believing what I want to believe," I pretty sure they'd shelve that assessment if they knew all that I've had to mentally sift through in order to even see that Pascal's Wager is a reasonable one.

With that, I also heartily affirm the last two sentences you've written in your OP here. Those are so true!

​

I am thinking first that we have to be humble enough to accept the possibility that we might be wrong.​

Then we have to be able to look at the same information in a different way. ​

Thank you. Maybe this is something for us very idealistic people. I was even more idealistic when I was younger. Trying or thinking I was living those ideals was a fantasy. With Christianity there is plenty of opportunity to get caught up in ideals and even imagination. That is especially true when it come to the book of Revelation and speculating about the future, also imagining heaven and getting in to all the Redemption Theories, etc. I have become more pragmatic. What is relevant for today? What do i need to do right now? What helps me to live a happier, more fulfilled life as I live and breathe?

"As for my comprehension and apprehension of the Christian faith, it has all been one big, laborious project, and one that still isn't finished on either an epistemological level nor a moral level." Same here.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Doxastic humility is a virtue rarely promoted among Xns, but it should be, I think. I think Christians should cultivate some form of fallibilism to avoid pride and epistemic arrogance.

Fallibilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

iep.utm.edu

We forget that all our beliefs, theologies philosophies can only point to the truth behind this vast and mysterious reality. We build models then believe they are reality. We also then fight over who has the best model, forgetting it is only an imperfect model.