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Serapha

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Does The Book of Mormon Solve A Christmas Mystery?
(Expanded 2nd Edition)
bandeira_do_brasil%2072%20dpi.jpg

By Book of Mormon Explorer

George Potter

(link edited)
Since I was a child, I have wondered about the story in the gospel of Matthew of the wise men. Traditionally it is thought that there were three Magi, but the actual number the Bible does not tell us. All we know is that some time after the birth of Jesus Christ the wise men “from the east” (Matthew 2:1) came to “Jerusalem”, and then continue following a “star” until they eventually found the Christ child, presented him gifts, and worshiped Him.

Perhaps you also found that this story raises many questions in your mind. Matthew wrote that the wise men saw “his star” and came to “worship him” (Matthew 2:1). Note carefully! The story does not say an angel visited them and announced that the star indicated that a Messiah had been born. Nor does the account say that they had a revelation or a dream, as when they were warned in a dream not to return to Herod (Matthew 2:13). Wouldn’t you think that if the wise men had had such divine interventions that Matthew would have recorded these miracles?

Instead, we are simply told that they saw the star and came to worship the King of the Jews? For the sake of this discussion, let’s assume that they did not receive this knowledge in the form of divine inspiration, but inherited this information from the oral and written traditions of their forefathers. The LDS dictionary states of the wise men: “Their knowledge was precise and accurate.” (see Magi) If so, what was the source of their precise and accurate information?

Knowing where the wise men came from could help us find the source of this knowledge. There are seven clues text that can help us pinpoint the origins of the magi with a high degree of certainty.

First, they came “from the east”. In the Bible, east did not mean a land to the east of Jerusalem, i.e. central Asia or China or any other land in a eastward direction from Jerusalem. Rather, it was the name of a place, Arabia. In the Old Testament the Arabs were called “the Children of the East” (LDS Bible Dictionary). Perhaps this is the reason the wise men are traditionally associated with camels. Several of Abraham’s sons and grandsons by his concubine wives established kingdoms in Arabia (Ishmael (Mecca), Kedar, Dumah, Dedan, Sheba, and Tema. Genesis 25:6 states that “Abrahram sent away the sons of his concubines eastward to the Land of the East”. History tells us that all these ancient kingdoms were found in Arabia (see LDS Bible Maps, Ancient World at the Time of The Patriarchs).

Second, throughout history, the Israelites held in high regard the business skills of the Arab merchants, and thought of these businessmen as “wise”. Biblical scholar James Montgomery writes:

If Edom is specially singled out as a home of wisdom, we have to remember that it lay across the great trade-routes of northwest Arabia and so could have enjoyed a privilege in culture such as that possessed by Edom’s successor, the Nabatean folk, and its ancient neighbor, the North-Minaean coly in Midian. In addition to these allusions to the Wise Men of the East there are two biblical passages which one tradition of interpretation assigns to an Arabian home, namely, Proverbs 30, and 31:1-9. By a different construction the title of the latter can be made to read, more sensibly than by the Masoretic construction, “the words of Lemuel the king of Massa,: i.e., the latter word as the name of the Arabian tribe to the east of Palestine.http://www.nephiproject.com/Christmas Mystery.htm#_edn1

Montgomery’s belief that the Isrealites considered the Arab merchants as possessing “wisdom” seems to be confirmed by the Biblical words of Job, when he describes his friend the Temanite Elizphaz. (Tema is located in northwest Arabia, and was a key trading center along the important incense trail). Job wrote that the Temanite received traditions “from wise men and their fathers” (Job 15:18). Eliphaz the Temanite seems to have taught that in ancient times there was a perceived relationship between wisdom and business success: “Eliphaz the Temanite”, said, “Should a wise man utter vain knowledge, and fill his belly with the east wind? Should he reason with unprofitable talk?” (Job 15:1-3). Indeed the Bible declares that the Arab merchants of Tema “Is wisdom no more in Teman? Is counsel perished from the prudent? Is their wisdom vanished?” (Jeremiah 49:6).

Even Solomon’s divine gift of wisdom seems to be in part a result of God blessing him in his clever trading relationships with the Arabs? Recall how Solomon established his kingdom as the principle middleman for the overland incense trade. 1 Kings Chapter 10 tells of his dealings with the Queen of Sheba, the ruler of the wealthy southern Arabia frankincense kingdom. She came to Solomon on what we call today a “trade mission”. As a result of this meeting, both Solomon and Arab kingdom of Sheba prospered,

And she gave the king a hundred and twenty talents of gold, and of spices very great store, and precious stones: there came no more such abundance of spices as these which the queen Sheba gave to king Solomon. (1 Kings 10:10)

And king Solomon gave unto the queen of Sheba all her desires, whatsoever she asked, beside that which Solomon gave her of his royal bounty. So she turned and went to her own country, she and her servants. (1 Kings 10:13)

And what was the bottom line of Solomon’s trade relations with Arabia? “So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom” (1 Kings 10:22).



Third, the wise men followed a star. In other words, they knew stellar navigation. This clue definitely ties the wise men were Arabs. Stellar navigation was not common knowledge in the ancient world. The first to learn this skill were the Arab caravaneers who used the stars to guide them through the featureless wasteland of the Arabian deserts. This knowledge was later utilized by the Arab ship captains to navigate the open seas, the first to do so using the stars to guide them[ii].

Fourth, the oral tradition of southern Arabia holds that the Magi were from that land. The British Explorer Barbara Toy studied of origins of the Magi and retraced their journey from a monument in southeastern Yemen where by tradition the Magi began their journey to Jerusalem. She writes:

It was from here that the Three Wise Men began their journey to follow the bright star to Bethlehem with their tributes of gold, frankincense and myrrh. And it was around here also it is believed, that three hundred years later the emissaries of the Empress Helena came searching for ‘Sessania Adrumatorum’ – the Azzan of today. They found the bones of the Magi and took them to Constantinople where they stayed until later taken to Constantinople where they stayed until later taken to Milan, and finally in the twelfth century to Colonge.[iii]

Fifth, the wise men brought gold with them. The wise men must have been wealthy tribal leaders with stores of gold. During that period of history, it is widely believed that the Frankincense trade had made southern Arabia the wealthiest region in the world. Gold, probably traded by Indians for Frankincense, was abundant in the region. Isaiah talks of great wealth of the southern Arabs (Sheba) noting that they bring with them, gold and incense (Isaiah 60:6). Daniel Peterson writes:

“The great wealth of Arabian merchants is mentioned in several places in the Bible. “Who is this that cometh out of the wilderness like pillars of smoke, perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, with all powders of the merchant? Asks the Song of Solomon (Songs of Solomon 3:6) Ezekiel refers to “Sabaeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads” (Ezekiel 23:42). Arabian merchants are routinely linked by the Old Testament with gold and silver, incense, spices, and precious stones (2 Chronicles, Isaiah 60:6, Jeremiah 6:29, Ezekiel 27:22).”[iv]

Sixth, the wise men brought precious incense with them, specifically frankincense and myrrh. In antiquity the exclusive source of these incenses was southern Arabia. The incense was usually carried on the backs of camels to the north. In Genesis we read how Joseph was sold by his brothers to an Ishmaelite (Arab) caravan bearing spicery, balm and myrrh (Genesis 37:25). LDS scholar John Tvedtnes writes:

Some have speculated that the wise men came from Arabia because two of the gifts they brought to Bethlehem, frankincense and myrrh, derive from the sap of trees that grow in southern Arabia[1], and are known to have possessed gold and other precious goods earned from the incense trade.[2] This was the view of early Church fathers such as Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho 77-78), Tertullian (Against the Jews 9), and Epiphanius (Exposition of the Faith 8).[3]

Seventh, the LDS Bible Dictionary states that the wise men were “likely...representatives of a branch of the Lord’s people” (see Magi). This would seem to imply that the wise men were Jews, or at least Hebrews (as are most Arabs). Assuming the former, historical records indicate that several sizable Jewish settlements were located in Arabia dating back at least to the time of Jeremiah. Of course, the Jewish diaspora had started long before the birth of Christ, thus Jewish communities existed in other locations in the Roman Empire; however, the Arabian Jewish communities were large and had existed in Arabia for centuries before the Lord’s birth.

I believe it is possible to conclude with a relatively high confidence level that the wise men came from southern Arabia. Knowing this, we can now return to our question, “How did the wise men obtain a precise and accurate knowledge of Christ birth?” Let’s start by reviewing information we know they possessed.

1) When they saw the star the wise men knew it was a ‘sign’, indeed, it was “his star” (Matthew 2:2). Since they were the only people who apparently saw the star in the old world, they must have known ‘when’ to look for it. Indeed, it seems they had been waiting a great time for the sign, for when the saw it “they rejoiced with exceeding great joy” (Matthew 2:10).

2) They knew that a King would be born to the “Jews” (Matthew 2:2). Thus they came to Jerusalem and Herod – the land of the Jews.

3) Although they knew the Christ child was to be born to the Jews, they didn’t know the exact location in Judah. Thus we read of them asking Herod , “Where is he that is born King of the Jews?” (Matthew 2:2). They finally ended up following the star to the location of the child (Matthew 2:9).

Prior to the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the modern era, Christendom had no explanation of how Arab wise men could have obtained this knowledge. However, the Book of Mormon provides a simple explanation of how this knowledge could have reached southern Arabia, or at least the Jewish communities in the peninsula. We know that Lehi was in route to Bountiful for eight years (1 Nephi 17:4), and undoubtedly spent a few more years in southern Arabia while Nephi built his ship. During this time Nephi, and probably Lehi, taught the gospel (D&C 33:7,8). Possibly they preached exclusively to the Jewish communities in Arabia, but this is not necessarily the case since the gospel seems to have been found among the Arabs as will as the Jews. For example, Jethro, a Midianite (northwest Arabia) held the Holy Priesthood (D&C 84:6) and Arabs were present at the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:11). Thus, there were no shortage of Hebrews, Jews and Arabs, to whom Nephi and Lehi could have shared the gospel.

So what new knowledge did Lehi and Nephi carry with them into southern Arabia? In the valley of Lemuel, Lehi received a revelation containing information on the Saviors birth: “Yea, even six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews – even a Messiah, or, in other words, a Savior of the world” (1 Nephi 10:4). Certainly, Lehi and Nephi would have transferred this exciting and profound information to the people they converted in Arabia.

Next, we see from the above verse that Lehi knew where the Messiah would be born -- “among the Jews”. Think of it! The star would have only provided the direction – which was toward the land of the Jew, thus confirming that the Messiah Lehi had prophesied had been born.
 

Serapha

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Finally, Lehi could have taught the wise men that they should worship the child. To Old Testament monotheists, this would have been a revolutionary concept…worshiping someone besides the one true God, Our Father in Heaven. Lehi knew that Jesus would be more than just another prophet, he would be the Messiah, the Savior and Redeemer of the world (1 Nephi 10:4,5). At first glance this seems to contradict what the wise men said, “Where is he that is born King of the Jews? This suggests that they were looking for a political figure. However, they followed this by noting that they “are come to worship him” (Matthew 2:2). Thus, the wise men must have known that the child was the Son of God, the Messiah. It is interesting to note that Joseph Smith corrected the translation, rephrasing Matthew 2:2 as follows, “Where is the child that is born, the Messiah of the Jews?” It is clear from Joseph Smith’s translation that the wise men knew that the appearance of a star that year meant that the Messiah had been born. This knowledge must come through Lehi, who was taught by the Lord that “a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews – even a Messiah”. (1 Nephi 10:4).

John Tvedtnes suggests that we take a deeper look at the word worship as used in Matthew. “But the English term “worship” merely means ‘to serve’ (its original form was work-ship)… They believed they would find the king of the Jews, and one does serve the king. Indeed, the Hebrew term generally rendered ‘servant’ (like the Arabic cognate, it really means ‘slave’) is used in both ‘servant of the king’ and ‘servant of the Lord.’ But of course in the Matthew passage, we are dealing with the Greek word of which Strong’s concordance says; ‘proskuneo (pros-koo-neh’-o), Greek verb, Possible Definitions;

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence; hence among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an _expression of profound reverence; in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication.”(unpublished)

Whether in Greek or English, the mean of Matthew’s worship points to Arab wise men, who came to worship a divine being. From the being of recorded time, Arabs worship by falling upon their knees and touching the ground with their foreheads. They later exported this form of worship to the rest of the Muslim world. Also, the Arabs believe that to truly worship God you must be his “slave”. To this day nearly all the names of Arab men refer to themselves as being the servant or slave of God. We see this in the name of the current ruler of Saudi Arabia, Prince Abdullah, (the slave of God).

The knowledge possessed by the wise men was precious, and they must have acquired this information in their homeland, undoubtedly Arabia. To this date the Christian world has only one explanation of how this information was transferred to the Arab forefathers of the wise men. The Book of Mormon holds the key.

[1] Cf. Song of Solomon 3:6/ Genesis 37:25.


[2] The Bible mentions gold and other riches in connection with various peoples from the Arabian peninsula (Judges 8:24-26, 2 Chronicles 9:1, Isaiah 60:6; Ezekiel 23:42;27:22).


[3] John Tvedtnes, correspondence with the author, November 2003, paragraph from his soon to be published book on the first Christmas.




http://www.nephiproject.com/Christmas Mystery.htm#_ednref1Montgomery, 171.


[ii] S.B. Miles, The Countries and Tribes of the Gulf, 2nd Ed. (London: Frank Case & Co., 1966), 357.


[iii] Barbara Toy, The Highway of the Three Kings, Arabia – From South to North (London: John Murray, 1968), 19.


[iv] Daniel Peterson, Abraham Divided, An LDS Perspective on the Middle East, (Salt Lake City: Aspen Books, 1995) 49.
 
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unbound

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The bible describes the star as actually moving and staying in front of the wise men. Herod even inquired about what time the star appeared. This "star" was definately not a normal star. This is a load of rubbish. Just another hack trying to rewrite the bible so the the BoM doesnt look so foolish.
 
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A New Dawn

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Actually, there is a much shorter, easier answer. ;)

The wise men were Nephites. (Or at least one of them was.)

3 Nephi 1:1-3
1 Now it came to pass that the ninety and first year had passed away; and it was six hundred years from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; and it was in the year that Lachoneus was the chief judge and the governor over the land.
2 And Nephi, the son of Helaman, had departed out of the land of Zarahemla, giving charge unto his son Nephi, who was his eldest son, concerning the plates of brass, and all the records which had been kept, and all those things which had been kept sacred, from the departure of Lehi out of Jerusalem;
3 Then he departed out of the land, and whither he went, no man knoweth; and his son Nephi did keep the record in his stead, yea, the record of this people.
 
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Serapha

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unbound said:
The bible describes the star as actually moving and staying in front of the wise men. Herod even inquired about what time the star appeared. This "star" was definately not a normal star. This is a load of rubbish. Just another hack trying to rewrite the bible so the the BoM doesnt look so foolish.
Hi there!

:wave:

Actually, George Potter is an exceptional LDS writer in that he sees archaeological evidences in a new and different light than previous LDS writers.


I would not term him as "another hack trying to rewrite the Bible"... He is one of the reason why Christians are in need of a wake up call concerning the CoJCoLDS and evidences for the bom.


~serapha~
 
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Serapha

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Hi there!

:wave:

Here is the text from Matthew Chapter 2


1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.

8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.


~serapha~
 
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Serapha

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Serapha said:
First, they came “from the east”. In the Bible, east did not mean a land to the east of Jerusalem, i.e. central Asia or China or any other land in a eastward direction from Jerusalem. Rather, it was the name of a place, Arabia. In the Old Testament the Arabs were called “the Children of the East” (LDS Bible Dictionary). Perhaps this is the reason the wise men are traditionally associated with camels.

Hi there!

:wave:

In looking up the phrase "from the east"....

Which one of "these" means that "from the east" is Arabia?


~serapha~



Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.


Psa 75:6 For promotion [cometh] neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.


Psa 107:3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.


Isa 2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and [are] soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.


Isa 41:2 Who raised up the righteous [man] from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made [him] rule over kings? he gave [them] as the dust to his sword, [and] as driven stubble to his bow.


Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;


Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.


Eze 45:7 And a [portion shall be] for the prince on the one side and on the other side of the oblation of the holy [portion], and of the possession of the city, before the oblation of the holy [portion], and before the possession of the city, from the west side westward, and from the east side eastward: and the length [shall be] over against one of the portions, from the west border unto the east border.


Eze 48:2 And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Asher.


Eze 48:3 And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a [portion for] Naphtali.


Eze 48:4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Manasseh.


Eze 48:5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Ephraim.


Eze 48:6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a [portion for] Reuben.


Eze 48:7 And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Judah.


Eze 48:8 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand [reeds in] breadth, and [in] length as one of the [other] parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.


Eze 48:23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin [shall have] a [portion].


Eze 48:24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon [shall have] a [portion].


Eze 48:25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a [portion].


Eze 48:26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a [portion].


Eze 48:27 And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a [portion].


Zec 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;


Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,


Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.


Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
 
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CrownCaster

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Jenda said:
Actually, there is a much shorter, easier answer. ;)

The wise men were Nephites. (Or at least one of them was.)

3 Nephi 1:1-3
1 Now it came to pass that the ninety and first year had passed away; and it was six hundred years from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; and it was in the year that Lachoneus was the chief judge and the governor over the land.
2 And Nephi, the son of Helaman, had departed out of the land of Zarahemla, giving charge unto his son Nephi, who was his eldest son, concerning the plates of brass, and all the records which had been kept, and all those things which had been kept sacred, from the departure of Lehi out of Jerusalem;
3 Then he departed out of the land, and whither he went, no man knoweth; and his son Nephi did keep the record in his stead, yea, the record of this people.
Your not serious I hope.
 
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CrownCaster

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Serapha said:
Hi there!

:wave:

Actually, George Potter is an exceptional LDS writer in that he sees archaeological evidences in a new and different light than previous LDS writers.


I would not term him as "another hack trying to rewrite the Bible"... He is one of the reason why Christians are in need of a wake up call concerning the CoJCoLDS and evidences for the bom.


~serapha~
Serapha, are you converting?
 
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Blackmarch

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Serapha said:
Finally, Lehi could have taught the wise men that they should worship the child. To Old Testament monotheists, this would have been a revolutionary concept…worshiping someone besides the one true God, Our Father in Heaven. Lehi knew that Jesus would be more than just another prophet, he would be the Messiah, the Savior and Redeemer of the world (1 Nephi 10:4,5). At first glance this seems to contradict what the wise men said, “Where is he that is born King of the Jews? This suggests that they were looking for a political figure. However, they followed this by noting that they “are come to worship him” (Matthew 2:2). Thus, the wise men must have known that the child was the Son of God, the Messiah. It is interesting to note that Joseph Smith corrected the translation, rephrasing Matthew 2:2 as follows, “Where is the child that is born, the Messiah of the Jews?” It is clear from Joseph Smith’s translation that the wise men knew that the appearance of a star that year meant that the Messiah had been born. This knowledge must come through Lehi, who was taught by the Lord that “a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews – even a Messiah”. (1 Nephi 10:4).

John Tvedtnes suggests that we take a deeper look at the word worship as used in Matthew. “But the English term “worship” merely means ‘to serve’ (its original form was work-ship)… They believed they would find the king of the Jews, and one does serve the king. Indeed, the Hebrew term generally rendered ‘servant’ (like the Arabic cognate, it really means ‘slave’) is used in both ‘servant of the king’ and ‘servant of the Lord.’ But of course in the Matthew passage, we are dealing with the Greek word of which Strong’s concordance says; ‘proskuneo (pros-koo-neh’-o), Greek verb, Possible Definitions;

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence; hence among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an _expression of profound reverence; in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication.”(unpublished)

Whether in Greek or English, the mean of Matthew’s worship points to Arab wise men, who came to worship a divine being. From the being of recorded time, Arabs worship by falling upon their knees and touching the ground with their foreheads. They later exported this form of worship to the rest of the Muslim world. Also, the Arabs believe that to truly worship God you must be his “slave”. To this day nearly all the names of Arab men refer to themselves as being the servant or slave of God. We see this in the name of the current ruler of Saudi Arabia, Prince Abdullah, (the slave of God).

The knowledge possessed by the wise men was precious, and they must have acquired this information in their homeland, undoubtedly Arabia. To this date the Christian world has only one explanation of how this information was transferred to the Arab forefathers of the wise men. The Book of Mormon holds the key.

[1] Cf. Song of Solomon 3:6/ Genesis 37:25.


[2] The Bible mentions gold and other riches in connection with various peoples from the Arabian peninsula (Judges 8:24-26, 2 Chronicles 9:1, Isaiah 60:6; Ezekiel 23:42;27:22).


[3] John Tvedtnes, correspondence with the author, November 2003, paragraph from his soon to be published book on the first Christmas.




http://www.nephiproject.com/Christmas Mystery.htm#_ednref1Montgomery, 171.


[ii] S.B. Miles, The Countries and Tribes of the Gulf, 2nd Ed. (London: Frank Case & Co., 1966), 357.


[iii] Barbara Toy, The Highway of the Three Kings, Arabia – From South to North (London: John Murray, 1968), 19.


[iv] Daniel Peterson, Abraham Divided, An LDS Perspective on the Middle East, (Salt Lake City: Aspen Books, 1995) 49.

Wow, that's very interesting.
It's possible that Lehi and his family and friends could have met other people, and taught them but such is not mentioned in the BoM. I tend to be inclined more along the lines with Moses' father in law, Jethro and the midianites, that they had the Gospel, or that one of the Israelitish goroups that became wicked and scattered in the OT times had such knowledge, and were able to keep it, or had repented, or had prophets sent to them that we don't know about. Definitely an interesting discussion.
AS for them being nephites (or lamanites), again it's possible, but not very likely.
 
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Blackmarch

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Well, at least it can't be proven either way (or any of the ways posted so far) with just the Bible or BoM,...
Not like it really matters too much.

And yes it is very interesting. but this sort of thing needs evidence or support outside the scriptures, even if the theory is logical.
 
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Serapha

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Blackmarch said:
Well, at least it can't be proven either way (or any of the ways posted so far) with just the Bible or BoM,...
Not like it really matters too much.

And yes it is very interesting. but this sort of thing needs evidence or support outside the scriptures, even if the theory is logical.
Hi there!

:wave:


I believe the facts have been "stretched" a bit here.. that's why I posted it for discussion...

~serapha~
 
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unbound

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Serapha said:
Hi there!

:wave:

Actually, George Potter is an exceptional LDS writer in that he sees archaeological evidences in a new and different light than previous LDS writers.


I would not term him as "another hack trying to rewrite the Bible"... He is one of the reason why Christians are in need of a wake up call concerning the CoJCoLDS and evidences for the bom.


~serapha~

You mean he just tries to hammer a square peg into a round hole a little harder than the rest of them?
 
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Svt4Him

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Serapha said:
Hi there!

:wave:

In looking up the phrase "from the east"....

Which one of "these" means that "from the east" is Arabia?


~serapha~



Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.


Psa 75:6 For promotion [cometh] neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.


Psa 107:3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.


Isa 2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and [are] soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.


Isa 41:2 Who raised up the righteous [man] from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made [him] rule over kings? he gave [them] as the dust to his sword, [and] as driven stubble to his bow.


Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;


Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.


Eze 45:7 And a [portion shall be] for the prince on the one side and on the other side of the oblation of the holy [portion], and of the possession of the city, before the oblation of the holy [portion], and before the possession of the city, from the west side westward, and from the east side eastward: and the length [shall be] over against one of the portions, from the west border unto the east border.


Eze 48:2 And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Asher.


Eze 48:3 And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a [portion for] Naphtali.


Eze 48:4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Manasseh.


Eze 48:5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Ephraim.


Eze 48:6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a [portion for] Reuben.


Eze 48:7 And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Judah.


Eze 48:8 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand [reeds in] breadth, and [in] length as one of the [other] parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.


Eze 48:23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin [shall have] a [portion].


Eze 48:24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon [shall have] a [portion].


Eze 48:25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a [portion].


Eze 48:26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a [portion].


Eze 48:27 And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a [portion].


Zec 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;


Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,


Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.


Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
I'd kind of like an answer to this as well.
 
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Swart

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Excellent article.

The most compelling case I have seen was that the 'wise men' were Buddhists from Tibet. There are records in the posession of a a Tibetan monastry dating to about 6BC that discuss the death of a senior Lama. Through their studies of the heavens they concluded the reincarnation of the Lama would be to a Hebrew. The monks sent a delegation to find him and give gifts to him and instruction on his education to his parents. According to the records, his name was "Issa" and the monks returned for him at age 13 and took him back to Tibet for training. He returned to Judea after completing his training at age 29.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm
http://www.ycsi.net/users/reversespins/teenageJesus.html

I have also read a compelling account that Zoroaster was Melchizedek.
 
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Serapha

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unbound said:
And Serapha, what evidences are you talking about?

More "narrow neck of land" and "two hill camorrahs" malarky?

You cant really argue with someone who is willing grasp at straws just to keep a religion afloat. Let them go ahead, it just makes the lie stand out that much more.




I'm not here to "argue"...

~serapha~
 
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