Adventist Beliefs on Biblical Signs of the End Days.

[Capbook2]

The Word obviously pre-existed taking on flesh. And you can even see it in the same immediate context of the same passage. Every knee shall bow at the name of Jesus and every tongue confess. He IS before there was ever an earth, let alone a statement in Isaiah.

Philippians 2:5-11​

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)​

Yes, the pre-incarnate Son existed but wasn't named Jesus in the OT, He was the Word, Whom through Him created all things.
Bible text has not provided as requested, to support your interpretation of Isaiah 45:23's "I" refer to Jesus.

 

[Capbook2]

Yes, we are. And that is why your "day" as an Adventist must be considerably longer than 1k years.

Romans 2:12-16​

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (ESV)​

​

God will judge the world by Christ Jesus ON THAT DAY. And that includes believer, non-believer, all are without excuse as Romans 1:18-20 indicate.

Yes, ON THAT DAY, the saved be changed in a "twinkling of an eye" will it happen before or after the conversation/investigation per your interpretation?

And to your estimation how many days would it take to converse/investigate the 7+billion, with the addition of OT dead and NT dead, believers and non believers?

And they will all be judged. And Adventists have that happening over more than 1k years.

Yes, through God's foreknowledge man's secret darkness already revealed or known to God, just waiting for His appointed day for Jesus to execute judgement.

How would we understand what Jesus said, "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment?"

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[Capbook2]

Of course it is. And sabbaton refers to multiple types of Sabbath rests in usage and in Lexicons.

But never referred to "eternal Sabbath rest."

Given that sabbaton can refer to multiple types of Sabbath rest, either one.

Could there be either one to the only definition of BDAG's "traditional Sabbath?"

They WERE living AT the time of usage. And your lexicographers are only guessing on the usage we actually have extant, which changes as we discover more about the time those people actually lived in, and more about the language they actually used. Which is why they keep updating the lexicons to reflect what they only now figured out the people then said.

But the people living there were the ones using the language . The Lexicographers in our day HOPE to find as much of the usage that was around then so that they can get a better picture of what the people living there already knew. Clearly the people IN the world at that time already spoke language, communicated, etc. and didn't need lexicographers hundreds of years later, who are just now discovering part of the usage of the time, to tell them what words meant.

If they were apostles of Jesus, you may be correct, but they're not, again, not even credentialed Bible Lexicographers.
They were not one of Christ disciples but were members of the undivided early Catholic (universal) Church, which also hold dogmas from Tradition.

 

[tall73]

But never referred to "eternal Sabbath rest."

Once you admit different sabbath applications, you open the word to other sabbath like rests.

And that is exactly what Hebrews spells out.

If they were apostles of Jesus, you may be correct, but they're not, again, not even credentialed Bible Lexicographers.

Well there goes your argument based on the usage in the time then. And lexicographers are not apostles, or even living during the time to know all the usage. There just academics trying to find out how people who lived at that time spoke.

Which is why usage in context is the issue. And Chrysostom, and a number of others, including the TDNT note that in Hebrews it is not talking about the Sabbath, but about a rest entered into by faith, today.

They were not one of Christ disciples but were members of the undivided early Catholic (universal) Church, which also hold dogmas from Tradition.

 

[tall73]

Yes, the pre-incarnate Son existed but wasn't named Jesus in the OT, He was the Word, Whom through Him created all things.
Bible text has not provided as requested, to support your interpretation of Isaiah 45:23's "I" refer to Jesus.

Of course it was. Because Isiah says what they will do, and the NT shows them doing that to Jesus. Your change to discuss the name of Jesus is a deflection. The Word didn't change to another person by the incarnation.

Philippians 2:5-11

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)​

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[tall73]

I said:

Yes, we are. And that is why your "day" as an Adventist must be considerably longer than 1k years.

Romans 2:12-16​

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (ESV)​

God will judge the world by Christ Jesus ON THAT DAY. And that includes believer, non-believer, all are without excuse as Romans 1:18-20 indicate.​

Yes, ON THAT DAY,

Right, including the judgment of the wicked on that day. Your "day" is over 1k years.

And to your estimation how many days would it take to converse/investigate the 7+billion, with the addition of OT dead and NT dead, believers and non believers?

At least 182 years less than the Adventist version, since you add the non-Scriptural Adventist IJ to your "day".

How would we understand what Jesus said, "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment?"

As we would a use of Krino in the context of condemning others such as do not judge, lest you be judged. But of course, in the context of the church, per I Corinthians 5, we are to judge.

That is because Krino can also mean condemn.

And of course, you are dismissing various texts showing judgment AND you are dismissing the protracted Adventist Ij, though you don't know what that is.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Exactly, because they will not be condemned.

But we will all stand before the judgment seat:

Romans 14:10-12​

0 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:​

“As I live, says the LORD,​

Every knee shall bow to Me,​

And every tongue shall confess to God.”​

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. (NKJV)​

Matthew 25:31-46​

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’​

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’​

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’​

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (NKJV)​

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Now, I am fine with you arguing against your own denomination's view. But you do still need to address all the Scriptures.

 

[Jipsah]

Can we imagine the "conversation" listed in Matthew 25:31-46 to happen at Jesus second coming, ask questions/investigation to all human population of 7+billions, with the addition of the OT dead and NT dead?

Y'all believe that God created the entire universe and everything in it in 6 24 hour days right? Interviewing everyone in one day should be a piece of cake in comparison, righ?

 

[tall73]

Y'all believe that God created the entire universe and everything in it in 6 24 hour days right? Interviewing everyone in one day should be a piece of cake in comparison, righ?

Certainly would not be impossible for God. Hence my saying, if He says it will happen, it will, however He decides to do it.

 

[Capbook2]

Once you admit different sabbath applications, you open the word to other sabbath like rests.

And that is exactly what Hebrews spells out.

Yes, BDAG spell it out clearly, "traditional Sabbath," never did to "eternal Sabbath rest."

Well there goes your argument based on the usage in the time then.

Usage for the other early Christian literature, but definition of "Sabbatismos" by BDAG's "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, what it really mean at the time it was used.

And lexicographers are not apostles, or even living during the time to know all the usage. There just academics trying to find out how people who lived at that time spoke.

They are not apostles, but they are credentialed Bible Lexicographer have greater authority to define original Bible words than to preachers or historians.

Which is why usage in context is the issue. And Chrysostom, and a number of others, including the TDNT note that in Hebrews it is not talking about the Sabbath, but about a rest entered into by faith, today.

Apostles words were often debated, what's the weight then of non apostles words as to this discussion?
They don't have authority to define, neither have published Bible Lexicons.
BDAG is widely acknowledged as gold standard Greek-English Lexicon.

 

[Capbook2]

Of course it was. Because Isiah says what they will do, and the NT shows them doing that to Jesus. Your change to discuss the name of Jesus is a deflection. The Word didn't change to another person by the incarnation.

Philippians 2:5-11

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)​

​

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Still no Bible text provided of any OT text that support the interpretation of Isaiah 45:23's "I" refer to Jesus.

Yes, it did in Philippians, but the passage is in the NT, what I need is a proof from OT verse that the LORD/Father, whom said "I" have sworn by Myself, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance," refer to Jesus.

As Jesus was only named in the NT, as I believe what exist in the OT was the Word/Logos.
I hope you get my point.

Isa 45:21 “Declare and present your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this long ago? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
Isa 45:22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
Isa 45:23 “I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

 

[tall73]

Still no Bible text provided of any OT text that support the interpretation of Isaiah 45:23's "I" refer to Jesus.

Yes, it did in Philippians, but the passage is in the NT, what I need is a proof from OT verse that the LORD/Father, whom said "I" have sworn by Myself, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance," refer to Jesus.

So you reject the NT.
And you assume your point that the covenant name cannot refer to the Son.

Noted.

As Jesus was only named in the NT, as I believe what exist in the OT was the Word/Logos.
I hope you get my point.

No, I do not get your point. Jesus still is the Word.

And with that, we are back to being non-productive. You won't accept what Jesus says about what He will do. And now you won't accept what the NT says.

No point discussing further.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Christ our God taught us that we would not know the day or hour.

 

[Capbook2]

I said:

Yes, we are. And that is why your "day" as an Adventist must be considerably longer than 1k years.​

​

Romans 2:12-16​

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (ESV)​

God will judge the world by Christ Jesus ON THAT DAY. And that includes believer, non-believer, all are without excuse as Romans 1:18-20 indicate.​

Right, including the judgment of the wicked on that day. Your "day" is over 1k years.

I just follow your line of argument, why divert the subject to my day?
Is it because your "day" is insufficient for the interpreted "conversation/investigation" to 7+ billion present population, in addition of OT and NT dead, when Jesus comes?

At least 182 years less than the Adventist version, since you add the non-Scriptural Adventist IJ to your "day".

Again, why don't you answer the question, as to your estimation how many days would it take to converse/investigate the 7+billion, with the addition of OT and NT dead, believers and non believers?
This is your interpretation, that there will be conversation, investigation, giving accounts when Jesus comes, right?
Why can't answer the question?

The non answer of the above question would prove that the IJ is a more reliable interpretation.

As we would a use of Krino in the context of condemning others such as do not judge, lest you be judged. But of course, in the context of the church, per I Corinthians 5, we are to judge.

That is because Krino can also mean condemn.

And of course, you are dismissing various texts showing judgment AND you are dismissing the protracted Adventist Ij, though you don't know what that is.

Exactly, because they will not be condemned.

I would understand it by the distinction between the word "saved" and "eternal life, BDAG defined "saved" as save from condemnation of death and the ultimate result is eternal life.
Jesus comes to execute judgement to who to save and who not to, but the text record those who already had "eternal life," thus obtaining eternal life, judgement had already passed.

But we will all stand before the judgment seat:

Romans 14:10-12​

0 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:​

“As I live, says the LORD,​

Every knee shall bow to Me,​

And every tongue shall confess to God.”​

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. (NKJV)​

Matthew 25:31-46​

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’​

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’​

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’​

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (NKJV)​

​

Now, I am fine with you arguing against your own denomination's view. But you do still need to address all the Scriptures.

I did not argue against our belief, see my understanding of the text in the above response.

Again, answer the question, on Jesus coming, conversation, investigation, giving account must happen per the interpretation.
Now, how many days would it take to converse, investigate, the giving account of 7+ present population, in addition of OT and NT dead, believers and non believers?

 

[Capbook2]

Y'all believe that God created the entire universe and everything in it in 6 24 hour days right? Interviewing everyone in one day should be a piece of cake in comparison, righ?

Yes, on God' side, but about on man's side, even they be given 1 minute to answer, would a day sufficient for 7+ billion, adding the OT and NT dead, believer and non believers?

Let us do mathematics;
One day is 60 minutes x 24 hours = 1,440 souls investigated every minute.
Even 1 second for every soul to answer , 3,600 seconds x 24 hours = 86,400 souls investigated in every seconds.
Even split seconds for every soul to answer, 7,200 seconds x 24 hours = 172,800 souls investigated every half seconds.

Interpretation that conversation, investigation, giving accounts must happen at Jesus second coming doesn't add up.

 

[Capbook2]

So you reject the NT.
And you assume your point that the covenant name cannot refer to the Son.

Noted.


No, I do not get your point. Jesus still is the Word.

And with that, we are back to being non-productive. You won't accept what Jesus says about what He will do. And now you won't accept what the NT says.

No point discussing further.

So you reject the NT.

Do my response in Post#211 rejects the NT? I guess you didn't get my point.
As you interpret that the "I" in Isaiah 45:23 refer to Jesus, any proof by OT text that Jesus exist in the OT?
Or you refer to the Word/Logos.

"Yes, it did in Philippians, but the passage is in the NT, what I need is a proof from OT verse that the LORD/Father, whom said "I" have sworn by Myself, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance," refer to Jesus.

And you assume your point that the covenant name cannot refer to the Son.

The Son was prophesied yet in Isaiah 9:6, is He then the "I" in Isaiah 45:23?

Noted.

No, I do not get your point. Jesus still is the Word.

And with that, we are back to being non-productive. You won't accept what Jesus says about what He will do. And now you won't accept what the NT says.

No point discussing further.

I did accept what the NT says, you just don't accept that the "I" in Isaiah 45:23's LORD was the Father.

Anyway, the interpretation of conversation, investigation, the giving of accounts must happen at Jesus coming really doesn't add up.
I've done mathematics on man's side not on God's side, it's really not realizable.

Yes, you are right, enforcing interpretation that doesn't add up is non productive.

 

[Capbook2]

Certainly would not be impossible for God. Hence my saying, if He says it will happen, it will, however He decides to do it.

Yes, in God's side not impossible but how about on man's side?
Having some available data we can anticipate that when conversation, investigation, giving of accounts must happen at Jesus second coming

We can do mathematics on how many can answer when man's investigation comes;
When man allowed to answer in a minute, one hour is 60 minutes x 24 hours = 1,440 souls investigated every minute.
Even 1 second for every soul to answer , 3,600 seconds x 24 hours = 86,400 souls investigated in every seconds.
Even split seconds for every soul to answer, 7,200 seconds x 24 hours = 172,800 souls investigated every half seconds.

Above computation makes the interpretation impossible to achieve.

 

[Jipsah]

Is it because your "day" is insufficient for the interpreted "conversation/investigation" to 7+ billion present population, in addition of OT and NT dead, when Jesus comes?

Why would the be? God knocked out an unimaginably complex universe in less than a solar week. Given that God is omniscient, I can't see Him taking more than a couple of solar days to get everyone sorted out.

Again, why don't you answer the question, as to your estimation how many days would it take to converse/investigate the 7+billion, with the addition of OT and NT dead, believers and non believers?

Just did - 2 days tops. And that's being pessimistic And remember, it isn't just God working on it this time. He's certainly got any number of angels and other Heavenly beings who've turned to and are working on it full time. God did most of the heavy lifting for the creation by Himself.

The non answer of the above question would prove that the IJ is a more reliable interpretation.

C'mon, IJ is just a contrivance to mitigate the damage caused by the Great Disappointment. Without a fig leaf of some sort, Millerism/SDAisn would be deader than Julius Caesar.

 

[Jipsah]

Christ our God taught us that we would not know the day or hour.

Yeah, but there are standard workarounds that date-setters invoke to evade what our Lord said. "Oh, it's was Really Fulfilled in Heaven" is part of the standard blown-prophecy repertoire now. Dunno if the Millerites actually invented it, but it's in the public domain now

 

[Jipsah]

I just follow your line of argument, why divert the subject to my day?
Is it because your "day" is insufficient for the interpreted "conversation/investigation" to 7+ billion present population, in addition of OT and NT dead, when Jesus comes?

I'm your huckleberry

Again, why don't you answer the question, as to your estimation how many days would it take to converse/investigate the 7+billion, with the addition of OT and NT dead, believers and non believers?

Now, how many days would it take to converse, investigate, the giving account of 7+ present population, in addition of OT and NT dead, believers and non believers?

I'm your huckleberry. It would take less than a year, and that's that's a pessimistic estimate. It's obviously a less intensive process then the creation of the universe, which took less than a week.

 

[Jipsah]

Interpretation that conversation, investigation, giving accounts must happen at Jesus second coming doesn't add up.

Nah, God's omniscient. He knows everything about all of us without having to do a personnel interview. Face it, that whole "revelation" was just a little too convenient to be credible, wasn't it? "Oh, it was realy our Lord moving from one office to another in Heaven." Right.

And innit amazing how the Russelite's had the same kind of "deus ex machina" revelation with their blown prediction of our Lord's return in 1914. "Oh, we didn't really blow it, something Really Important Really Did Happen In Heaven" on the date we forecast." Harold Camping danced a variation of that same dance when his "prophecies" turned out, to the surprise of very few, to be rubbish. When his 2011 date came and went without our Lord returning, he claimed that a significant spiritual even had taken plce, althojugh he was vague about the precise nature of that event.

And so it goes, each ocurrence sillier than the last. It's almost as if.. ""But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." None of the workarounds actually seem to work. So folks keep setting dates, and keep having to invent ever more imaginative, ever more pious sounding b ut never any more believable excuses for why their "ptophecies" have failed. It's almost as though our Lord meant what He said. "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."