I have a question and I’m confused

[Tom8907]

One where God's word is taken seriously and where the Gospel is preached.

 

[The Liturgist]

ROTFL!!!! Certainly weighted in favor of your favorite flavor. I used the Google AI thing, and entered your enquiry verbatim;

Identify the largest Trinitarian Christian denominations that claim (1) scripture is a sufficient test of doctrine and no extra-biblical document is necessary for testing all doctrine, (2) possess a single global administrative authority, (3) maintain one unified set of binding official doctrines for all members, and (4) contain no doctrinally autonomous subgroups within their membership.

This is what I got:

There are no large Trinitarian Christian denominations that meet all four specified criteria. The criteria regarding sola scriptura and a single global authority with unified doctrine are generally mutually exclusive among the largest denominations.

Explanation

• Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches (the largest Trinitarian bodies) reject the doctrine that Scripture is the sole sufficient test for all doctrine (sola scriptura), holding that Sacred Tradition is an equally vital source of divine revelation and the authoritative guide for interpretation.
• Protestant denominations, which generally uphold the principle of sola scriptura, are highly diverse and fragmented, with no single global administrative authority or unified set of binding official doctrines for all members.
• Other groups that reject extra-biblical documents, such as the Churches of Christ, are not large global denominations with a single central authority and lack unified doctrines across all congregations due to their emphasis on individual interpretation.

SDA did not even warrant an honorable mention. Neither did the Lutherans, which is understandable due to the synodical Structure. Each confessional Synod being autonomous whether congregationalist or episcopal in governance; in full fellowship and agreement yet not administered by a single global authority; much the way the early Church was, and the Orthodox are today.

AI, can only be, by design, Biased. I could tweak the question to get Lutheran as an answer, but maybe not sort the confessional from the woke synods.

Mark, to clarify, did you run the question in the AI that appears in Google search results or did you follow the link through to Google Gemini? If you don’t know, past a URL to the AI that you asked, and I can tell you.

@BobRyan , had you tested that prompt on Google’s AI, or were we supposed to use ChatGPT as per your previous revision of the prompt?

I got this answer, from ChatGPT 5.1:

You said:​

Using strict rules, identify the largest Trinitarian Christian denominations that claim (1) scripture is a sufficient test of doctrine and no extra-biblical document is necessary for testing all doctrine, (2) possess a single global administrative authority, (3) maintain one unified set of binding official doctrines for all members, and (4) contain no doctrinally autonomous subgroups within their membership.

ChatGPT said:​

Following those strict rules:
The Evangelical Methodist Church International (EMCI)
This worldwide Methodist body maintains a single international leadership structure with one binding doctrinal statement for all members. No national or regional units hold doctrinal independence, and the denomination affirms Scripture as the sufficient test of doctrine. Global membership is in the tens of thousands.
The Lutheran Church International (LCI)
A confessional Lutheran communion operating as one global jurisdiction rather than a federation. It upholds a single unified doctrinal standard, is governed under a single international authority, and contains no autonomous national synods. Its membership is comparatively small, but it fully satisfies all four criteria.

If you want further analysis—such as governance comparisons, doctrinal enforcement mechanisms, or size estimates—I can provide that as well.

I’m guessing @BobRyan that again wasn’t the answer you were expecting?

I tried to warn you; the terms you are using are subjective. AI can’t answer it consistently. There is an issue of bias in the training data as my pious and excellent Lutheran friend @MarkRohfrietsch mentioned, but the actual problem is that you’re still relying on subjective terms and a question that is answered based on statistics. Even with perfect AI, the subjective terminology (including, but not limited to, Trinitarian, administration, denomination) makes your question unanswerable. And since the definition of these things (Trinitarian, administration, denomination) is disputed, if you try to impose objective definitions on them, you still have to deal with the issue of statistical reliability in the training data. So even a perfect AI would be unable to consistently answer this question. Indeed if chatGPT were more advanced, it would refuse to answer the question due to the subjective terms.

As it is now, it isn’t confused, it’s rather using temperature (the value that introduces randomness into chatGPT’s output; this is essential in that it literally is what makes chatGPT capable of sustaining an interesting conversation; if you use the chatGPT API you can set temperature=0, and the result is … not useful, and also it costs money each time your run a question using the API; it’s useful only for serious prompt hacking purposes, and I myself don’t use it (if I had used it in this, you wouldn’t see the pretty output formatting that chatGPT does, since the output would be through an ssh session to a Linux or OpenBSD server, in a command line terminal, basically).

But the other issue is even if we weren’t getting inconsistent issues, which we are, you’re already prompt hacking; your efforts to “prevent the AI from getting confused” are simply massaging the question to get the results you want, and the fact we’re seeing digressive results with each iteration you supply us proves both my point that AI cannot be used in this manner without constituting an appeal to unqualified authority, and also that you’ve lost objectivity, since you’re now trying to manipulate chatGPt into desired behavior, which is the definition of prompt engineering.

 

[The Liturgist]

One where God's word is taken seriously and where the Gospel is preached.

That, sir, is a beautiful answer.

By the way, we have not had the pleasure; I thought I knew all the active Anglican members of the forum. I am however distraught about the direction in which the Church of England has been going, both liturgically and doctrinally. The disappearance of the boys choirs, most recently those of St. Paul’s and the Temple Church, the bishop shutting down the volunteer children’s choir at Sheffield Cathedral because he thought it wasn’t sufficiently racially diverse, the intense pressure to join other Anglican Communion bodies in making a departure from Biblical norms of human sexuality, and so on.

There are still good many parishes in the Church of England, and even good bishops, and one or two good cathedrals remaining, but the overall direction has me distressed, but we have to pray and trust in Christ our True God. In the US we wound up with the Continuing Anglican churches and the ACNA although even now there are still good parishes in the Episcopal church, in what some people call “the flyover states.” I recently attended a lovely Episcopalian parish in Utah.

 

[BobRyan]

Mark, to clarify, did you run the question in the AI that appears in Google search results or did you follow the link through to Google Gemini? If you don’t know, past a URL to the AI that you asked, and I can tell you.

@BobRyan , had you tested that prompt on Google’s AI, or were we supposed to use ChatGPT as per your previous revision of the prompt?

I got this answer, from ChatGPT 5.1:

"Use AI"

Using strict rules, identify the largest Trinitarian Christian denominations that claim (1) scripture is a sufficient test of doctrine and no extra-biblical document is necessary for testing all doctrine, (2) possess a single global administrative authority, (3) maintain one unified set of binding official doctrines for all members, and (4) contain no doctrinally autonomous subgroups within their membership.

AI Response from "USE.AI"

That’s an excellent and very precise question about ecclesiology and formal doctrinal authority. Let’s apply each of your criteria strictly and systematically.

Result: Denominations That Fit All Four Strictly​

1. Seventh-day Adventist Church
   • Scripture alone as authoritative test of doctrine (Formal statement: “The Holy Scriptures are the supreme, authoritative, and the infallible revelation of His will.”)
   • Single global administrative authority: The General Conference governs worldwide.
   • Uniform doctrine: The 28 Fundamental Beliefs, binding worldwide.
   • No doctrinal autonomy: National and local entities are administratively subordinate to the General Conference and cannot establish divergent doctrine.
2. Church of the Nazarene
   • Scripture alone: Historically and officially declares the Bible the sufficient rule of faith and practice.
   • Single administrative authority: The General Assembly is the final doctrinal and legal authority for the global church.
   • Unified doctrine: One global Manual defining binding Articles of Faith.
   • No doctrinal autonomy: Regional bodies cannot create independent doctrines.

---

Therefore — Strictly Applying Every Criterion​

The largest Trinitarian Christian denominations that meet all four are:

1. Seventh-day Adventist Church (est. ~22 million members globally)
2. Church of the Nazarene (est. ~2.5 million members globally)

 

[BobRyan]

Using strict rules, identify the largest Trinitarian Christian denominations that claim (1) scripture is a sufficient test of doctrine and no extra-biblical document is necessary for testing all doctrine, (2) possess a single global administrative authority, (3) maintain one unified set of binding official doctrines for all members, and (4) contain no doctrinally autonomous subgroups within their membership.

ROTFL!!!! Certainly weighted in favor of your favorite flavor.

I love that answer

But what is it about the question above that says to you "Only the Seventh-day Adventist church could qualify given that criteria"???

I used the Google AI thing, and entered your enquiry verbatim;

Identify the largest Trinitarian Christian denominations that claim (1) scripture is a sufficient test of doctrine and no extra-biblical document is necessary for testing all doctrine, (2) possess a single global administrative authority, (3) maintain one unified set of binding official doctrines for all members, and (4) contain no doctrinally autonomous subgroups within their membership.

This is what I got:

There are no large Trinitarian Christian denominations that meet all four specified criteria. The criteria regarding sola scriptura and a single global authority with unified doctrine are generally mutually exclusive among the largest denominations.

Explanation

• Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches (the largest Trinitarian bodies) reject the doctrine that Scripture is the sole sufficient test for all doctrine (sola scriptura), holding that Sacred Tradition is an equally vital source of divine revelation and the authoritative guide for interpretation.

Well I agree with that as failure to qualify just as it states

 

[The Liturgist]

"Use AI"

Using strict rules, identify the largest Trinitarian Christian denominations that claim (1) scripture is a sufficient test of doctrine and no extra-biblical document is necessary for testing all doctrine, (2) possess a single global administrative authority, (3) maintain one unified set of binding official doctrines for all members, and (4) contain no doctrinally autonomous subgroups within their membership.

AI Response from "USE.AI"

That’s an excellent and very precise question about ecclesiology and formal doctrinal authority. Let’s apply each of your criteria strictly and systematically.

Result: Denominations That Fit All Four Strictly​

1. Seventh-day Adventist Church
   • Scripture alone as authoritative test of doctrine (Formal statement: “The Holy Scriptures are the supreme, authoritative, and the infallible revelation of His will.”)
   • Single global administrative authority: The General Conference governs worldwide.
   • Uniform doctrine: The 28 Fundamental Beliefs, binding worldwide.
   • No doctrinal autonomy: National and local entities are administratively subordinate to the General Conference and cannot establish divergent doctrine.
2. Church of the Nazarene
   • Scripture alone: Historically and officially declares the Bible the sufficient rule of faith and practice.
   • Single administrative authority: The General Assembly is the final doctrinal and legal authority for the global church.
   • Unified doctrine: One global Manual defining binding Articles of Faith.
   • No doctrinal autonomy: Regional bodies cannot create independent doctrines.

---

Therefore — Strictly Applying Every Criterion​

The largest Trinitarian Christian denominations that meet all four are:

1. Seventh-day Adventist Church (est. ~22 million members globally)
2. Church of the Nazarene (est. ~2.5 million members globally)

Use.ai is a service that uses the chatGPT API to access multiple AIs, but it only has chatGPT 5, the deprecated and buggy version of chatGPT, and chatGPT 4o and certain older models as options. I would assume you used chatGPT 5 since that is the default. Now when I ask chatGPT 5 the same question, I get this reply:

Applying the strict criteria, only a small number of Trinitarian denominations fit all four conditions. Most large Protestant bodies either lack a single global administrative authority or allow national autonomy. The following best satisfy all four criteria:

---

1. The Salvation Army​

• Scriptural sufficiency: Officially teaches that Scripture alone is the rule of Christian faith and practice, rejecting creeds as tests of fellowship.
• Global authority: Governed by the General of The Salvation Army at International Headquarters in London, with authority extending worldwide.
• Unified doctrine: One internationally binding “Handbook of Doctrine”, adopted by all territories.
• No autonomous subgroups: All territorial commands operate under the same constitution and cannot define separate doctrinal stances.

---

2. The Church of the Nazarene​

• Scriptural sufficiency: Affirms the Bible as the final and sufficient authority in matters of faith and practice.
• Global authority: Has a single international General Assembly and Board of General Superintendents, which exercise doctrinal and administrative oversight over all regions.
• Unified doctrine: Uses one Manual worldwide containing the Articles of Faith, binding on every member and minister.
• No doctrinal autonomy: Regional and national units cannot alter doctrine; only the General Assembly may revise the Articles of Faith.

---

3. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee)​

• Scriptural sufficiency: Teaches that the Bible alone is the all-sufficient rule of faith and conduct.
• Global authority: Operates under a General Assembly and International Executive Committee, whose decisions are binding worldwide.
• Unified doctrine: Maintains a single Declaration of Faith and Minutes of the General Assembly that govern doctrine and practice universally.
• No autonomous subgroups: National and regional organizations are administratively subordinate to the international body and cannot adopt differing doctrinal standards.

---

4. The International Church of the Foursquare Gospel​

• Scriptural sufficiency: Confesses Scripture as the only authoritative rule of faith and conduct.
• Global authority: Headed by an International Church Council with authority over all affiliated churches worldwide.
• Unified doctrine: Holds a single, globally consistent Declaration of Faith.
• No doctrinal autonomy: National fellowships are under the same confessional and organizational structure, without separate doctrinal powers.

---

Summary​

The denominations that fully meet the stated criteria are:
1. The Salvation Army
2. The Church of the Nazarene
3. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee)
4. The International Church of the Foursquare Gospel

Each maintains (a) Scripture as the sole test of doctrine, (b) a single worldwide authority, (c) one binding doctrinal standard, and (d) no doctrinally autonomous subunits.

————————————————————————————————————

So alas, your attempt at prompt engineering is still producing inconsistent results, further proving my point about the unreliability of AI for what you are trying to do. Your parameters are subjective, and the fact that you’ve tuned your responses to try to exclude liturgical churches shows that you’ve lost objectivity and are (unsuccessfully) engaged in prompt engineering.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Mark, to clarify, did you run the question in the AI that appears in Google search results or did you follow the link through to Google Gemini? If you don’t know, past a URL to the AI that you asked, and I can tell you.

@BobRyan , had you tested that prompt on Google’s AI, or were we supposed to use ChatGPT as per your previous revision of the prompt?

I got this answer, from ChatGPT 5.1:



I’m guessing @BobRyan that again wasn’t the answer you were expecting?

I tried to warn you; the terms you are using are subjective. AI can’t answer it consistently. There is an issue of bias in the training data as my pious and excellent Lutheran friend @MarkRohfrietsch mentioned, but the actual problem is that you’re still relying on subjective terms and a question that is answered based on statistics. Even with perfect AI, the subjective terminology (including, but not limited to, Trinitarian, administration, denomination) makes your question unanswerable. And since the definition of these things (Trinitarian, administration, denomination) is disputed, if you try to impose objective definitions on them, you still have to deal with the issue of statistical reliability in the training data. So even a perfect AI would be unable to consistently answer this question. Indeed if chatGPT were more advanced, it would refuse to answer the question due to the subjective terms.

As it is now, it isn’t confused, it’s rather using temperature (the value that introduces randomness into chatGPT’s output; this is essential in that it literally is what makes chatGPT capable of sustaining an interesting conversation; if you use the chatGPT API you can set temperature=0, and the result is … not useful, and also it costs money each time your run a question using the API; it’s useful only for serious prompt hacking purposes, and I myself don’t use it (if I had used it in this, you wouldn’t see the pretty output formatting that chatGPT does, since the output would be through an ssh session to a Linux or OpenBSD server, in a command line terminal, basically).

But the other issue is even if we weren’t getting inconsistent issues, which we are, you’re already prompt hacking; your efforts to “prevent the AI from getting confused” are simply massaging the question to get the results you want, and the fact we’re seeing digressive results with each iteration you supply us proves both my point that AI cannot be used in this manner without constituting an appeal to unqualified authority, and also that you’ve lost objectivity, since you’re now trying to manipulate chatGPt into desired behavior, which is the definition of prompt engineering.

The Google one, to demonstrate the "results may vary" nature of AI. Google may indeed have given a very truthful answer, I get the logic it used from the answers in light of the explanations.

 

[Tom8907]

That, sir, is a beautiful answer.

By the way, we have not had the pleasure; I thought I knew all the active Anglican members of the forum. I am however distraught about the direction in which the Church of England has been going, both liturgically and doctrinally. The disappearance of the boys choirs, most recently those of St. Paul’s and the Temple Church, the bishop shutting down the volunteer children’s choir at Sheffield Cathedral because he thought it wasn’t sufficiently racially diverse, the intense pressure to join other Anglican Communion bodies in making a departure from Biblical norms of human sexuality, and so on.

Thankyou, yes I am Anglican but this is the part where I say I'm from the Reformed camp and because of my denomination's poor state I attend a 'particular Baptist church'

 

[The Liturgist]

Thankyou, yes I am Anglican but this is the part where I say I'm from the Reformed camp and because of my denomination's poor state I attend a 'particular Baptist church'

In the US, we have the Reformed Episcopal Church which unlike ECUSA, which went even more sharply in the direction that the C of E is headed (and in the process lost more than two thirds of its members), but in much of greater London, a Baptist church might well be the only convenient option (if you were a conservative Anglo Catholic or High Church, there would be more options, but on the Reformed end of the spectrum, options are particularly limited, and of course the United Reformed Church which absorbed almost all Congregationalist and Presbyterian churches is far to the left of the C of E even now, being at least on a par with the Scottish Episcopal Church - alas, in Scotland a traditional Anglican would be out of luck.