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How people choose a church

Tigran1245

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Why mention priesthood? Paul and Timothy were not priests, except in the sense that Peter says all Christians are priests
Paul and Timothy had grace of priesthood in the special sense. This grace of the priesthood was transmitted precisely through the lifting up of hands. Laymen had no such gift.

This special grace was also described by the Apostolic Fathers who lived in the first centuries of Christianity. Saint Irenaeus of Lyons (a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna, who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John the Theologian) writes in his work Against Heresies:

“It is necessary to obey those presbyters who… have received succession from the apostles and, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the sure gift of truth according to the good pleasure of the Father. But others, who depart from the original succession and gather wherever they may, ought to be suspected either as heretics and false teachers, or as schismatics, proud and self-pleasing, or as hypocrites acting for the sake of gain and vainglory. All these have fallen away from the truth.”

And this is what Saint Ignatius the God-Bearer (the boy, whom Jesus took on hands Mf.18:2-5) says:

“Do nothing without the bishop in matters pertaining to the Church. Only that Eucharist is to be considered valid which is celebrated by the bishop or by one to whom he himself has entrusted it.Where the bishop is, there let the people be; just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

Thus, the status of the priesthood is an essential criterion of the true Church.
 
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bèlla

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Despite all of that, I feel overwhelmed by all of these terms and feel like I'll never get to Heaven because I did not study the bible in university.

You can reason your way out of anything if you aren’t careful. Pay no heed to it and look at the examples in scripture. Who does the Lord prefer? Look at their qualities and disposition. Look at their heart and actions. Paul was the most learned for a reason. He was laying the foundation for the gentiles. But who does the Lord call a man after His own heart? David.

Pay attention to the things He says about His servants. They reveal the characteristics the Lord esteems that we should nurture within ourselves. You don’t have to be a scholar to follow Christ and don’t assume they’re arriving wearing a crown. Because knowledge puffs up and many lean on their intellect and that’s the driver not the spirit.

If you want to increase your knowledge of scripture you can do it through memorization and praying the divine office. There’s catholic and protestant versions you can reference. I started praying that way at the synagogue and we covered a lot of scripture which helps your recollection. I continued the practice and wrote my own prayers or what I received from the Holy Spirit.

From what I’ve seen of your posts you might enjoy Precepts bible studies too. They have groups that meet online and locally. The Precept Upon Precept books are more involved for group study. But The New Inductive Series can be worked through alone. It has daily assignments. I have both and the latter is my favorite. When you meet in a group you’ll see the video that accompanies the lesson but you can purchase it as well and get trained if you want to teach a class. Which could be beneficial.

~bella
 
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CoreyD

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Why mention priesthood? Paul and Timothy were not priests, except in the sense that Peter says all Christians are priests:

“But you [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;” (1Pe 2:9 NKJV)

1 Timothy 4:14 mentions the spiritual gift that was in Timothy, but not mention of him being a priest.
I'm confused, David.
Were persons not to receive the gift of holy spirit through the laying of hands, unlike when it was poured out by Jesus on the day of Pentecost of 33 C.E?
Priesthood and apostleship are not the same as receiving of holy spirit. Is that not so?

Perhaps there is some confusion, or misunderstanding on what the laying of the hands on individuals involves.
It requires reading just a few passages of scripture - Acts 6:5, 6; Acts 8:14-19; Acts 9:17; Acts 13:2, 3; Acts 19:1-7, to see that the laying of hands had a variety of purposes, but none of which involved apostleship.

Regarding the priesthood, all spirit born, or spirit anointed individuals serve as priests.... not on earth, but in heaven, with Jesus the high priest. 1 Peter 2:4-10; Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:6
Again, we see that Jesus is first and foremost, both apostle, and priest.
 
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A New Dawn

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I find all of this so interesting but also overwhelming. I don't know what sacraments, apostolic succession, liturgy, creeds and everything else means!

Here is maybe a not so interesting fact: My IQ is 140, for whatever that is worth. I'm university educated. I'm in a white collar, legalistic, professional job.

Despite all of that, I feel overwhelmed by all of these terms and feel like I'll never get to Heaven because I did not study the bible in university.

That's my tantrum done! :confused:
Don’t feel disheartened. I was a nurse who worked in a large research hospital in NYC for years, surrounded by the smartest people alive, but it holds no candle to being in a relationship with Christ. I also was a member of a Christian cult that rejected many mainstream Christian beliefs and had to maneuver through the different religions and beliefs to find one that I believe sticks closely to God’s word. It took a while, and a couple really good friends who could help me interpret scripture so I knew how certain beliefs were or weren’t Biblical. I pray you have some spiritual guidance along the way.
 
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stevevw

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In thinking about this further I have expanded my view. I agree that the two most obvious churches that are closest to the original or were at least built on that original format. Is the Catholics and Orthodox.

Primarily I could see them unifying out of all churches and denominations because they are at least open to supporting the fundemental ways the early church worshipped. Especially the sacrifice of the bread and wine, the body and blood of Christ.

This is the one factor I think of all things that will unite. Just like the early church it was central and really apart from some prayers and praising and readings this was it. There was no Ted Talk or profound sermon. It was fellowship in the body of Christ.

But unlike some denominations who have no chance of uniting because they are divided. They either dismiss it or reimagine it into how they think it should be done. A modernisation to conform with the world more than Christ.

In saying that I think there are many within all denominations who are of Christ church. They may either partake in it with an honest heart if their church offers it. Or are willing and wanting to do so.

This is where I think Gods spirit comes in. As this is so fundemental and a truth I think all Christians know. But for whatever reasons have been side tracked or denied this. But as the spirit can come over people and then the church I think this can bring Christ spirit to existing groups of Christians who have strayed who will want to go back to partaking of the bread .

On the other hand there will be churches and denomionations which become more worldly and lose their way and we can tell by the fruits and know that we should stay away. We too could be blinded and fooled if not strong in the faith.

I was only thinking this as I am starting to go to a local church associated with a Homeless Hub I work at. A few of the homeless guests go there and they also provide a meal.

I am thinking wow how is this not reflecting Christ church even though they are not Catholic or Orthodox. They are very basic, some bible readings and a bit of a sermon. But not a preachy one and just a down to earth one about lifes struggles and how God offers hope and salvation.

I think these smaller churches or gatherings are probably capturing more closely the essense of sharing the bread of Christ. They just don;t specify it or state the need for it. Certainlt the sharing of a meal beforehand is sort of the same. So I sometimes wonder where the line is.

Its hard to know and Gods spirit works when two or more are gathered. But I sort of believe that Christ is with this small church, they are living His words. Even though they are not practicing this the same way as the Catholics or Orthodox.
 
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pastorwaris

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In thinking about this further I have expanded my view. I agree that the two most obvious churches that are closest to the original or were at least built on that original format. Is the Catholics and Orthodox.

Primarily I could see them unifying out of all churches and denominations because they are at least open to supporting the fundemental ways the early church worshipped. Especially the sacrifice of the bread and wine, the body and blood of Christ.

This is the one factor I think of all things that will unite. Just like the early church it was central and really apart from some prayers and praising and readings this was it. There was no Ted Talk or profound sermon. It was fellowship in the body of Christ.

But unlike some denominations who have no chance of uniting because they are divided. They either dismiss it or reimagine it into how they think it should be done. A modernisation to conform with the world more than Christ.

In saying that I think there are many within all denominations who are of Christ church. They may either partake in it with an honest heart if their church offers it. Or are willing and wanting to do so.

This is where I think Gods spirit comes in. As this is so fundemental and a truth I think all Christians know. But for whatever reasons have been side tracked or denied this. But as the spirit can come over people and then the church I think this can bring Christ spirit to existing groups of Christians who have strayed who will want to go back to partaking of the bread .

On the other hand there will be churches and denomionations which become more worldly and lose their way and we can tell by the fruits and know that we should stay away. We too could be blinded and fooled if not strong in the faith.

I was only thinking this as I am starting to go to a local church associated with a Homeless Hub I work at. A few of the homeless guests go there and they also provide a meal.

I am thinking wow how is this not reflecting Christ church even though they are not Catholic or Orthodox. They are very basic, some bible readings and a bit of a sermon. But not a preachy one and just a down to earth one about lifes struggles and how God offers hope and salvation.

I think these smaller churches or gatherings are probably capturing more closely the essense of sharing the bread of Christ. They just don;t specify it or state the need for it. Certainlt the sharing of a meal beforehand is sort of the same. So I sometimes wonder where the line is.

Its hard to know and Gods spirit works when two or more are gathered. But I sort of believe that Christ is with this small church, they are living His words. Even though they are not practicing this the same way as the Catholics or Orthodox.

Dear Brother,
Your reflection is thoughtful and sincere, and I appreciate the way you are trying to understand the heart of the early church. You are absolutely right about several key points, and there are also a few areas where some clarification can help strengthen your understanding.

First, what you said correctly:
You are right that both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions have preserved many elements of ancient Christian worship. Historically, the earliest Christian gatherings centered on the reading of Scripture, prayer, fellowship, and the breaking of bread. Acts 2:42 says they “devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.” Your observation that this rhythm has been preserved more consistently in liturgical traditions is historically accurate.

You are also correct that the Eucharist (the early Greek term is Eucharistia meaning “thanksgiving”) was central to early worship. The writings of the church fathers such as Ignatius of Antioch (late first century) and Justin Martyr (mid second century) describe the Eucharist as the core of Christian gathering. So your point about its importance is valid and well grounded in history.

Additionally, your heart for smaller gatherings that live out Christ’s teachings is beautiful. Jesus said in Matthew 18:20, “Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I with them.” Christ is indeed present among believers who gather in humility, love, and truth.

Where some clarification is needed:
  1. Unity will not primarily come through liturgical form but through truth and the Spirit.
    While you are right that the Eucharist was central, Scripture does not teach that unity comes from a particular style of worship but from shared doctrine and the Spirit. Jesus prayed, “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth” (John 17:17).
    The Greek word hagiason (sanctify) means to set apart by truth, not by ritual.
    Unity comes through the Spirit and the Word, not through outward forms alone.
  2. The early church did have preaching and teaching.
    You mentioned there was no “Ted Talk or profound sermon.” It is true that modern-style sermons did not exist, but teaching was always present.
    Acts 20:7 says Paul “spoke to the people and kept on talking until midnight.”
    The Greek verb dielegeto used here means discussion, reasoning, and teaching.
    So preaching was a normal part of early worship, though more interactive and less performance-driven than today.
  3. Not all denominations reject the Lord’s Table out of worldliness.
    Some churches practice Communion less frequently not because they reject it but because their understanding of it is shaped by Scripture differently than Catholic or Orthodox traditions.
    For example, many evangelical churches emphasize the symbolism found in 1 Corinthians 11, where Paul focuses on the heart, not only the ritual.
    Your concern is understandable, but we must be careful not to assume that different equals worldly.
  4. Sharing a common meal is beautiful but not identical to the biblical Lord’s Supper.
    You are absolutely right that the early church often included meals (called agape feasts). Jude 1:12 refers to them directly.
    But Paul makes a distinction between regular meals and the Lord’s Supper in 1 Corinthians 11.
    He writes, “Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?” meaning ordinary food is one thing, the Lord’s Table is another.
    So your sense that “it feels similar” is correct, but biblically they are not the same.
  5. Christ is present wherever believers gather, but the sacraments have their own biblical place.
    Your conclusion about Christ being with the small church you described is absolutely correct.
    However, even if a group reflects Christ in love and community, it does not automatically mean they are practicing the Lord’s Supper in the same sense as the early church.
    Both fellowship and sacrament have value, but they are distinct practices.
Dear Brother,
Your instincts are good, and your heart is in the right place. You rightly sense that God is moving wherever people humbly gather in His name. You also correctly value the early church’s devotion to the breaking of bread.

The only encouragement I offer is to see unity not as something achieved through returning to a particular ritual form but through returning to Scripture, to the Spirit’s leading, and to living out Christ’s commands in love. Doctrine, fellowship, worship, and the sacraments all work together, not against each other.

Thank you for sharing your reflections. They show a sincere desire to understand the heart of the early church and follow Christ faithfully.

Blessings
Pastor waris
 
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