Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

[2PhiloVoid]

I go back & forth on this.
Gun to my head, I'll tell your it's eteneral torment.
But you just don't see 'eteneral torture in hell' spelled out in the Bible. Sometimes it makes me think it was a later invention.
But I don't think that's right. I think it is eternal torment.

I definitely think universalism is false

This particular forum is, and has never been, a discussion about 'Universalism.' In fact, NO ONE here is advocating for it. It's good to be clear on what the actual focus point is.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

God said you are either a sheep or a goat, I hope you're not a goat but you haven't given me any reason to believe that you're a sheep.

As I've already tried to explain, love is not affirming lost sinners in their sin and telling them they're just fine while they are heading for eternal torment in hell fire.

Your idea of love seems to be based on hiding the truth from sinners, as it may offend them. It's like a Doctor who fails to tell his patient that they have cancer, because he doesn't want to hurt their feelings so the patient goes away to die without receiving any life saving treatment.

I never said that, and where you're drawing the insinuation about what it is you THINK I think is utterly astounding. I'm not Universalist and so, you can stop talking at me as if I am.

The cancer, actually, here is your attitude and if there are others here who THiNK they can interpolate what and why I believe what I believe in my Christian Faith, and they persist in do so without asking me what it is I actually believe, then there's little reason for me to perceive that they have any rational, balanced ability to discern truth from error.

The gospel is so awful, that thew world calls it hate speech, and the preaching of it is now banned in most countries. I'm not talking about the false prosperity gospel, which can't save anyone, that false version is embraced by the whole world. If the world loves your message then you are not proclaiming the true gospel.

No, the Gospel is Good News.

I'm not concerned about what unbelievers think of the gospel, the Lord Jesus commands His people to go into all the world and proclaim the gospel. He also told us, not to take it personally when we are hated because the world hated Him first.

Yes, we all know that.

You're welcome to read whatever books you like, but I only believe what Gods Word proclaims. I don't know who your shepherd is, but I can tell he's teaching you a different version of the gospel.
God raised up my Minister to lead our local Church, he's not self appointed and he's not self taught. He is in fact a highly educated Doctor of theology.

Goodie for you.

 

[eleos1954]

No it's not opinion ... it's from scripture .... look them up yourself

1. 1 Deuteronomy 31:16: “The Lord said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.”
2. II Samuel 7:12: “When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.""
3. I Kings 1:21: “When my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers.”
4. I Kings 2:10: “David slept with his fathers.”
5. I Kings 11:21: “David slept with his fathers.”
6. I Kings 11:43: “Solomon slept with his fathers.”
7. I Kings 14:20: “Jeroboam...slept with his fathers.”
8. I Kings 14:31: “Rehoboam slept with his fathers.”
9. I Kings 15:8: “Abijam slept with his fathers.”
10. I Kings 15:24: “Asa slept with his fathers.”
11. I Kings 16:6: “Baasha slept with his fathers.”
12. I Kings 16:28: “Omri slept with his fathers.”
13. I Kings 22:40: “Ahab slept with his fathers.”
14. I Kings 22:50: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers.”
15. II Kings 8:24: “Joram slept with his fathers”
16. II Kings 10:35: “Jehu slept with his fathers”
17. II Kings 13:9: “Jehoahaz slept with his fathers”
18. II Kings 13:13: “Joash slept with his fathers”
19. II Kings 14:16: “Jehoash slept with his fathers”
20. II Kings 14:22: “The king slept with his fathers”
21. II Kings 14:29: “Jeroboam slept with his fathers”
22. II Kings 15:7: “Azariah slept with his fathers”
23. II Kings 15:22: “Menahem slept with his fathers”
24. II Kings 15:38: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
25. II Kings 16:20: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
26. II Kings 20:21: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
27. II Kings 21: 18: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
28. II Kings 24:6: “Jehoiakim slept with his fathers”
29. II Chron. 9:31: “Solomon slept with his fathers”
30. II Chron. 12:16: “Rehoaboam slept with his fathers”
31. II Chron. 14:1: “Abijah slept with his fathers”
32. II Chron. 16:13: “Asa slept with his fathers”
33. II Chron. 21:1: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers”
34. II Chron. 26:2: “The king slept with his fathers”
35. II Chron. 26:23: “Uzziah slept with his fathers”
36. II Chron. 27:9: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
37. II Chron. 28:27: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
38. II Chron. 32:33: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
39. II Chron. 33:20: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
    
    In Job, believed to be the oldest book in the Bible, death is again referred to as sleep:
40. Job 7:21: “Now shall I sleep in the dust”
41. Job 14:12: “They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep”
    
    In the Psalms, death is a sleep:
42. Psalm 13:3: “Lest I sleep the sleep of death”
43. Psalm 90:5: “Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep”
    
    Daniel promises a resurrection of the sleeping dead:
44. Daniel 12:2: “Many of they that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake”
    
    Jesus described death as “sleep”:
45. Matthew 9:24: “The maid is not dead but sleepeth.”
46. Mark 5:39: “The damsel is not dead but sleepeth”
47. Luke 8:52: “She is not dead but sleepeth”
48. John 11:11: “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth”
    
    At Jesus’ crucifixion:
49. Matthew 27:52: “Many bodies of the saints which slept arose”
    
    Luke reiterates I Kings:
50. Acts 13:36: “David...fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers”
    
    Paul describes death as sleep:
51. I Cor. 15:20: “Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that sleep”
52. I Cor. 15:51: “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
53. I Thess 4:13: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope”
54. I Thess. 4:14: “If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus”

The corresponding scriptures are noted ... ignore them if you want.

 

[eleos1954]

It's not my private interpetation i


No it's not opinion ... it's from scripture

1. 1 Deuteronomy 31:16: “The Lord said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.”
2. II Samuel 7:12: “When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.""
3. I Kings 1:21: “When my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers.”
4. I Kings 2:10: “David slept with his fathers.”
5. I Kings 11:21: “David slept with his fathers.”
6. I Kings 11:43: “Solomon slept with his fathers.”
7. I Kings 14:20: “Jeroboam...slept with his fathers.”
8. I Kings 14:31: “Rehoboam slept with his fathers.”
9. I Kings 15:8: “Abijam slept with his fathers.”
10. I Kings 15:24: “Asa slept with his fathers.”
11. I Kings 16:6: “Baasha slept with his fathers.”
12. I Kings 16:28: “Omri slept with his fathers.”
13. I Kings 22:40: “Ahab slept with his fathers.”
14. I Kings 22:50: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers.”
15. II Kings 8:24: “Joram slept with his fathers”
16. II Kings 10:35: “Jehu slept with his fathers”
17. II Kings 13:9: “Jehoahaz slept with his fathers”
18. II Kings 13:13: “Joash slept with his fathers”
19. II Kings 14:16: “Jehoash slept with his fathers”
20. II Kings 14:22: “The king slept with his fathers”
21. II Kings 14:29: “Jeroboam slept with his fathers”
22. II Kings 15:7: “Azariah slept with his fathers”
23. II Kings 15:22: “Menahem slept with his fathers”
24. II Kings 15:38: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
25. II Kings 16:20: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
26. II Kings 20:21: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
27. II Kings 21: 18: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
28. II Kings 24:6: “Jehoiakim slept with his fathers”
29. II Chron. 9:31: “Solomon slept with his fathers”
30. II Chron. 12:16: “Rehoaboam slept with his fathers”
31. II Chron. 14:1: “Abijah slept with his fathers”
32. II Chron. 16:13: “Asa slept with his fathers”
33. II Chron. 21:1: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers”
34. II Chron. 26:2: “The king slept with his fathers”
35. II Chron. 26:23: “Uzziah slept with his fathers”
36. II Chron. 27:9: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
37. II Chron. 28:27: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
38. II Chron. 32:33: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
39. II Chron. 33:20: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
    
    In Job, believed to be the oldest book in the Bible, death is again referred to as sleep:
40. Job 7:21: “Now shall I sleep in the dust”
41. Job 14:12: “They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep”
    
    In the Psalms, death is a sleep:
42. Psalm 13:3: “Lest I sleep the sleep of death”
43. Psalm 90:5: “Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep”
    
    Daniel promises a resurrection of the sleeping dead:
44. Daniel 12:2: “Many of they that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake”
    
    Jesus described death as “sleep”:
45. Matthew 9:24: “The maid is not dead but sleepeth.”
46. Mark 5:39: “The damsel is not dead but sleepeth”
47. Luke 8:52: “She is not dead but sleepeth”
48. John 11:11: “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth”
    
    At Jesus’ crucifixion:
49. Matthew 27:52: “Many bodies of the saints which slept arose”
    
    Luke reiterates I Kings:
50. Acts 13:36: “David...fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers”
    
    Paul describes death as sleep:
51. I Cor. 15:20: “Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that sleep”
52. I Cor. 15:51: “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
53. I Thess 4:13: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope”
54. I Thess. 4:14: “If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus”

 

[Hentenza]

It's not my private interpetation i


No it's not opinion ... it's from scripture

1. 1 Deuteronomy 31:16: “The Lord said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.”
2. II Samuel 7:12: “When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.""
3. I Kings 1:21: “When my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers.”
4. I Kings 2:10: “David slept with his fathers.”
5. I Kings 11:21: “David slept with his fathers.”
6. I Kings 11:43: “Solomon slept with his fathers.”
7. I Kings 14:20: “Jeroboam...slept with his fathers.”
8. I Kings 14:31: “Rehoboam slept with his fathers.”
9. I Kings 15:8: “Abijam slept with his fathers.”
10. I Kings 15:24: “Asa slept with his fathers.”
11. I Kings 16:6: “Baasha slept with his fathers.”
12. I Kings 16:28: “Omri slept with his fathers.”
13. I Kings 22:40: “Ahab slept with his fathers.”
14. I Kings 22:50: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers.”
15. II Kings 8:24: “Joram slept with his fathers”
16. II Kings 10:35: “Jehu slept with his fathers”
17. II Kings 13:9: “Jehoahaz slept with his fathers”
18. II Kings 13:13: “Joash slept with his fathers”
19. II Kings 14:16: “Jehoash slept with his fathers”
20. II Kings 14:22: “The king slept with his fathers”
21. II Kings 14:29: “Jeroboam slept with his fathers”
22. II Kings 15:7: “Azariah slept with his fathers”
23. II Kings 15:22: “Menahem slept with his fathers”
24. II Kings 15:38: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
25. II Kings 16:20: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
26. II Kings 20:21: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
27. II Kings 21: 18: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
28. II Kings 24:6: “Jehoiakim slept with his fathers”
29. II Chron. 9:31: “Solomon slept with his fathers”
30. II Chron. 12:16: “Rehoaboam slept with his fathers”
31. II Chron. 14:1: “Abijah slept with his fathers”
32. II Chron. 16:13: “Asa slept with his fathers”
33. II Chron. 21:1: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers”
34. II Chron. 26:2: “The king slept with his fathers”
35. II Chron. 26:23: “Uzziah slept with his fathers”
36. II Chron. 27:9: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
37. II Chron. 28:27: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
38. II Chron. 32:33: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
39. II Chron. 33:20: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
    
    In Job, believed to be the oldest book in the Bible, death is again referred to as sleep:
40. Job 7:21: “Now shall I sleep in the dust”
41. Job 14:12: “They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep”
    
    In the Psalms, death is a sleep:
42. Psalm 13:3: “Lest I sleep the sleep of death”
43. Psalm 90:5: “Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep”
    
    Daniel promises a resurrection of the sleeping dead:
44. Daniel 12:2: “Many of they that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake”
    
    Jesus described death as “sleep”:
45. Matthew 9:24: “The maid is not dead but sleepeth.”
46. Mark 5:39: “The damsel is not dead but sleepeth”
47. Luke 8:52: “She is not dead but sleepeth”
48. John 11:11: “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth”
    
    At Jesus’ crucifixion:
49. Matthew 27:52: “Many bodies of the saints which slept arose”
    
    Luke reiterates I Kings:
50. Acts 13:36: “David...fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers”
    
    Paul describes death as sleep:
51. I Cor. 15:20: “Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that sleep”
52. I Cor. 15:51: “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
53. I Thess 4:13: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope”
54. I Thess. 4:14: “If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus”

No it's not opinion ... it's from scripture .... look them up yourself

1. 1 Deuteronomy 31:16: “The Lord said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.”
2. II Samuel 7:12: “When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.""
3. I Kings 1:21: “When my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers.”
4. I Kings 2:10: “David slept with his fathers.”
5. I Kings 11:21: “David slept with his fathers.”
6. I Kings 11:43: “Solomon slept with his fathers.”
7. I Kings 14:20: “Jeroboam...slept with his fathers.”
8. I Kings 14:31: “Rehoboam slept with his fathers.”
9. I Kings 15:8: “Abijam slept with his fathers.”
10. I Kings 15:24: “Asa slept with his fathers.”
11. I Kings 16:6: “Baasha slept with his fathers.”
12. I Kings 16:28: “Omri slept with his fathers.”
13. I Kings 22:40: “Ahab slept with his fathers.”
14. I Kings 22:50: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers.”
15. II Kings 8:24: “Joram slept with his fathers”
16. II Kings 10:35: “Jehu slept with his fathers”
17. II Kings 13:9: “Jehoahaz slept with his fathers”
18. II Kings 13:13: “Joash slept with his fathers”
19. II Kings 14:16: “Jehoash slept with his fathers”
20. II Kings 14:22: “The king slept with his fathers”
21. II Kings 14:29: “Jeroboam slept with his fathers”
22. II Kings 15:7: “Azariah slept with his fathers”
23. II Kings 15:22: “Menahem slept with his fathers”
24. II Kings 15:38: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
25. II Kings 16:20: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
26. II Kings 20:21: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
27. II Kings 21: 18: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
28. II Kings 24:6: “Jehoiakim slept with his fathers”
29. II Chron. 9:31: “Solomon slept with his fathers”
30. II Chron. 12:16: “Rehoaboam slept with his fathers”
31. II Chron. 14:1: “Abijah slept with his fathers”
32. II Chron. 16:13: “Asa slept with his fathers”
33. II Chron. 21:1: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers”
34. II Chron. 26:2: “The king slept with his fathers”
35. II Chron. 26:23: “Uzziah slept with his fathers”
36. II Chron. 27:9: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
37. II Chron. 28:27: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
38. II Chron. 32:33: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
39. II Chron. 33:20: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
    
    In Job, believed to be the oldest book in the Bible, death is again referred to as sleep:
40. Job 7:21: “Now shall I sleep in the dust”
41. Job 14:12: “They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep”
    
    In the Psalms, death is a sleep:
42. Psalm 13:3: “Lest I sleep the sleep of death”
43. Psalm 90:5: “Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep”
    
    Daniel promises a resurrection of the sleeping dead:
44. Daniel 12:2: “Many of they that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake”
    
    Jesus described death as “sleep”:
45. Matthew 9:24: “The maid is not dead but sleepeth.”
46. Mark 5:39: “The damsel is not dead but sleepeth”
47. Luke 8:52: “She is not dead but sleepeth”
48. John 11:11: “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth”
    
    At Jesus’ crucifixion:
49. Matthew 27:52: “Many bodies of the saints which slept arose”
    
    Luke reiterates I Kings:
50. Acts 13:36: “David...fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers”
    
    Paul describes death as sleep:
51. I Cor. 15:20: “Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that sleep”
52. I Cor. 15:51: “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
53. I Thess 4:13: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope”
54. I Thess. 4:14: “If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus”

The corresponding scriptures are noted ... ignore them if you want.

All of these are metaphorical of the body’s “rest” in the grave. We still use the saying today when we say about the newly departed to “rest in peace”. The sleep does not include the spirit.

A perfect example is Stephen’s prayer as he was being stoned.

“They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Then he fell on his knees and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7‬:‭59‬-‭60‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 7:59-60 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Then he fell on his knees and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” H | New American Standard Bible - NASB

They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Then he fell on his knees and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” H

bible.com

Stephen's cry, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," makes it clear that his spirit was active and going to Jesus, not sleeping. However, he fell asleep when his body died.

 

[DragonFox91]

This particular forum is, and has never been, a discussion about 'Universalism.' In fact, NO ONE here is advocating for it. It's good to be clear on what the actual focus point is.

Makes sense. I approve

 

[Dan1988]

I never said that, and where you're drawing the insinuation about what it is you THINK I think is utterly astounding. I'm not Universalist and so, you can stop talking at me as if I am.

The cancer, actually, here is your attitude and if there are others here who THiNK they can interpolate what and why I believe what I believe in my Christian Faith, and they persist in do so without asking me what it is I actually believe, then there's little reason for me to perceive that they have any rational, balanced ability to discern truth from error.

No, the Gospel is Good News.

Yes, we all know that.


Goodie for you.

I don't know what you were trying to say, because you have never revealed what version of the gospel you subscribe to.

What you believe and why you believe it, remains a mystery. Everybody knows that I believe in the gospel of the Lord Jesus, I boast about what He has done for me.

The truth is not a thing, it's actually a person and He is the Lord Jesus. He has proclaimed the awful truth of the gospel. His gospel is the worst news that unbelievers will ever hear in their lives, because the message is that eternal torment in hell awaits them, unless they repent.

So the gospel is the best news ever to people lie myself and it's the worst news to unbelievers. So it's not good news to everyone as you falsely claim, it to be.

 

[jonojim1337]

There are those why try to cheat justice, because in the world, you can do that and get away with it. But God says, you can’t do that. So regarding the form of their inevitable end, I couldn’t care less. I don’t intend to join them.

 

[linux.poet]

MOD HAT ON​

This thread has been moved from General Theology to Controversial Christian Theology.​

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't know what you were trying to say, because you have never revealed what version of the gospel you subscribe to.

What you believe and why you believe it, remains a mystery. Everybody knows that I believe in the gospel of the Lord Jesus, I boast about what He has done for me.

The truth is not a thing, it's actually a person and He is the Lord Jesus. He has proclaimed the awful truth of the gospel. His gospel is the worst news that unbelievers will ever hear in their lives, because the message is that eternal torment in hell awaits them, unless they repent.

So the gospel is the best news ever to people lie myself and it's the worst news to unbelievers. So it's not good news to everyone as you falsely claim, it to be.

I've had enough of your accusations. And yes, "truth" is a thing. Christ is Truth in the Ultimate, Supreme spiritual sense, but that fact doesn't override that there are other forms of truth and truth statements, such as: The sun rises in the East. This statement isn't true simply because Jesus is Lord. It's 'true' because the statement is born out by many rational and empirical tests we can make of the claim about 'the sun rising in the East.'

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't know what you were trying to say, because you have never revealed what version of the gospel you subscribe to.

What you believe and why you believe it, remains a mystery. Everybody knows that I believe in the gospel of the Lord Jesus, I boast about what He has done for me.

It's not a mystery at all. I've given plenty of information on what I think the Christian Faith is (in line with the Nicene Creed), and I've been doing so for over 15 years on these forums.

The truth is not a thing, it's actually a person and He is the Lord Jesus. He has proclaimed the awful truth of the gospel. His gospel is the worst news that unbelievers will ever hear in their lives, because the message is that eternal torment in hell awaits them, unless they repent.

So the gospel is the best news ever to people lie myself and it's the worst news to unbelievers. So it's not good news to everyone as you falsely claim, it to be.

 

[Dan1988]

I've had enough of your accusations. And yes, "truth" is a thing. Christ is Truth in the Ultimate, Supreme spiritual sense, but that fact doesn't override that there are other forms of truth and truth statements, such as: The sun rises in the East. This statement isn't true simply because Jesus is Lord. It's 'true' because the statement is born out by many rational and empirical tests we can make of the claim about 'the sun rising in the East.'

No, according to the Lord Jesus you are wrong again. Because Jesus said "He is the truth" and the Lord Jesus is not "a thing".

John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'"

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth".

John 1:17 "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ,"

John 8:32 reads, "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free,"

1 John 5:20 says: "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

As you can see there are not many truths or other truths, there is only One truth and His name is the Lord Jesus.

You seem to have confused the laws which govern Gods natural creation, these are called facts of nature, not truths of nature. It's a fact of nature that the sun will keep rising and setting without ceasing until the Lords pleasure is fulfilled.

 

[Tom8907]

Hell is indeed eternal and this makes sense. Sinning against an infinitely thrice Holy God does indeed have infinite, eternal consequences.

 

[Dan1988]

It's not a mystery at all. I've given plenty of information on what I think the Christian Faith is (in line with the Nicene Creed), and I've been doing so for over 15 years on these forums.

From what I have gathered, you don't hold to a biblical systematic theology, based on "sola scriptura". You seem to mix Bible doctrine with worldly wisdom, such as philosophy. my understanding is that these are mutually exclusive so you can't hold on to both.

Having a sound theology is not based on how many years you've been studying Church history or the bible. And salvation has nothing to do with how well you know the scriptures, the vast majority of saved people never even had access to a bible. God is not impressed with any mans wisdom and understanding of scripture, He saves people by His grace and not by how wise they think they are.

 

[RamiC]

My Minister, is appointed by the Lord, to teach me, to lead me and to watch over me, just as a Shepherd watches over his flock. The Lord raised him up and ordained him for this purpose, so I am obliged to submit myself to his authority because he is responsible to God for my soul.

That is your private opinion.

Being a member of the Body of Christ, means that I'm a sheep and my Minister is the Shepherd. So I don't have the authority to challenge his teaching, so when He instructs me to have no fellowship with those who reject the gospel, then I must obey or, face disciplinarily action, including excommunication.

May look at Point 4 on this link - "God Is Fear"? 10 Signs That Your Church is Becoming A Cult — #Christianity #Jesus #Bible — Dr. Eitan Bar | Bible Scholar .

To understand what the Lord Jesus meant by saying "love your enemy", you first need to understand what the word "love" means. I'd suggest you do a bible study on what it means, but I'll just give you a brief overview here>>>

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things".

No avoiding people or face disciplinary measures then.

I still don't know what point you were trying to make,

Agreed.

 

[Dan1988]

That is your private opinion.


May look at Point 4 on this link - "God Is Fear"? 10 Signs That Your Church is Becoming A Cult — #Christianity #Jesus #Bible — Dr. Eitan Bar | Bible Scholar .


No avoiding people or face disciplinary measures then.

Agreed.

I'm not sure what you believe about tithes and offering in the Church, but I can tell you that God takes this Church ordinance very seriously. He actually killed a man and his wife, "Ananias and his wife Sapphira", for holding back some of the money they were supposed to give to the Church.

The link you refer to is about cults and sects, it has nothing to do with the Church (the Body of Christ). Nobody in my local Church would dare hold back the money that is allocated for Gods work.
We all give cheerfully and sacrificially. Our Pastor is a full time Minister, He is on a generous salary, because he has four children with another on the way. He also has a mortgage on his house so it's incumbent on all of us to support him and his family financially.

Gods Word tells us that a labourer is worthy of his wages, we are blessed to have a such a highly qualified Minister. He is a Professor of Theology and He is also a Bible Scholar, so he deserves a generous salary to live a comfortable life. God is pleased with our generous giving, and He has blessed our Church with growth. We are looking at building a much bigger Church building as we have outgrown our current one.

We don't avoid people, but we don't have any fellowship with the world or those who hold to unbiblical theology. We actually sacrifice our time to reach out the the community in our area, we go door knocking to share the gospel with as many as we can.
We're not seeking to recruit anyone or convert anyone, as that's Gods work. All we do is share the gospel (which is the power to save). Most turn us away very quickly because they hate the truth of the gospel, but every now and then someone responds in faith and they are eventually converted and joined to the Church.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No, according to the Lord Jesus you are wrong again. Because Jesus said "He is the truth" and the Lord Jesus is not "a thing".

John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'"

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth".

John 1:17 "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ,"

John 8:32 reads, "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free,"

1 John 5:20 says: "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

As you can see there are not many truths or other truths, there is only One truth and His name is the Lord Jesus.

You're not actually paying attention to anything I'm saying, are you? I'm not sure how we can have a productive discussion, let alone fellowship, if you refuse to listen or even learn from additional Trinitarian Christians other than your one local minister.

You seem to have confused the laws which govern Gods natural creation, these are called facts of nature, not truths of nature.

And according to you, what is the difference between a 'truth claim' and a 'fact'?

It's a fact of nature that the sun will keep rising and setting without ceasing until the Lords pleasure is fulfilled.

No one was addressing whether or not the sun will keep rising and setting. Your bringing that up is a fallacy called a 'red-herring.' I suggest you avoid repeating this fallacy going forward into the future.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

From what I have gathered, you don't hold to a biblical systematic theology, based on "sola scriptura". You seem to mix Bible doctrine with worldly wisdom, such as philosophy. my understanding is that these are mutually exclusive so you can't hold on to both.

And you would be extremely wrong to think that philosophy is, in whole, mutually exclusive to Christian theology.

You might want to keep in mind that, actually, the undertaking of biblical systematic theology REQUIRES the application of some points of the wide (very, very wide) field of Philosophy.

And you would be right to say that I don't hold to Sola Scriptura, and I'd go on record to in fact say that in order to be saved, no one needs to. God is bigger than the rag tag collection of letters and books we call the New Testament, after all, and I'll continue to take my measures for what constitutes 'good theology' from many Christian scholars (and ministers) rather than ................... only one local minister.

Having a sound theology is not based on how many years you've been studying Church history or the bible.

I beg to differ on this point. How can anyone have "sound theology" by believing in a social bubble, with little or no education in the area of Hermeneutics, Biblical Exegesis, and Church History??? ............ by special pleading about one's special, personal revelations or by the special abilities of one's singular local minister? I think not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And salvation has nothing to do with how well you know the scriptures, the vast majority of saved people never even had access to a bible.

Obviously. I never said salvation is congruent with how well we know the Scriptures. It's also not exactly congruent with a set of presuppositions attuned solely and only to, shall we say, a more Calvinistic leaning.

God is not impressed with any mans wisdom and understanding of scripture, He saves people by His grace and not by how wise they think they are.

And neither is God impressed with anyone's SPIRITUAL ZEAL that persists without KNOWLEDGE.

Well then, with that, have a Merry Christmas!