what is Calvinism answer to how God works?

[ladodgers6]

At best a discussion in a forum lke this is going to end up trading verses, not getting into the historical and literary contexts that are necessary to properly understand a document that is 2000 years old at the youngest. Especially when we get into texts that have been proof texted so often that the doctrinal gloss of a particular theological movement that didn't crop up until the 16th century has replaced the contextual understanding.

My comments about prideful egos was encompassing all of fallen mankind, which included me too. Synergistic theologies holds a lofty view of man. I am curious about something if you would indulge me. Can you give me your take on the Fall and Sin and how it affects the human race. Thanks in advance.


I beg to differ. The question Fervent, is Salvation God's Plan to save His people from their sins. Meaning it is a Covenant; a Covenant of Redemption by the self-contained, indivisible, Triniantarian God-Head who fulfills everything to save His people from their sins or is Salvation only made possible for us to make a decision to save ourselves? The latter faces some very difficult questions to address. When I was still an Arminian I ask those very difficult questions to people in the same camp, they could not answer them, they tried but failed.

Salvation is not us climbing up to God; like the attempt in Babel.

But God who descended down to us!

To save sinners from their sins! Because even our Faith & Repentance are God's gifts. But to contemplate this you must acknowledge what actually happened to us in the Fall. Your position as was mine before I understood. Is that Fallen Man's disposition before a Holy God is hostility, we're God haters, loving the darkness instead of the light. It is God who calls us out of the darkness into His marvelous light. Something Fervent must change fallen man's disposition toward God as sworn enemies to God's children. This Fervent is a Divine act of God himself. Not something we do, understand?
​

On the nature of will:
“In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion... his will being bound by the fetters of sin”. John Calvin

Like an addict who willingly consumes their vices without coercion, but is bound by their evil desires; to will or do what they love to do. Arminius himself understood this and held a doctrine of Total Depravity.

​

 

[Fervent]

My comments about prideful egos was encompassing all of fallen mankind, which included me too. Synergistic theologies holds a lofty view of man. I am curious about something if you would indulge me. Can you give me your take on the Fall and Sin and how it affects the human race. Thanks in advance.​

No, synergistic theologies don't hold a "lofty view of man", they simply don't denigrate man and deny that we are made in God's image. An image that was marred in the fall, but not destroyed.

I beg to differ. The question Fervent, is Salvation God's Plan to save His people from their sins. Meaning it is a Covenant; a Covenant of Redemption by the self-contained, indivisible, Triniantarian God-Head who fulfills everything to save His people from their sins or is Salvation only made possible for us to make a decision to save ourselves? The latter faces some very difficult questions to address. When I was still an Arminian I ask those very difficult questions to people in the same camp, they could not answer them, they tried but failed.​

The options are not Arminianism or Calvinism, that false dichotomy is bound to lead to error. There is no saving ourselves, as the "decision" is an act of surrender to God's pursuit, not a seeking of God. Monergists seem to have a place for everything in their theology except themselves, the sin belongs to Adam and the faith belongs to God. No place for the monergist, none at all.

Salvation is not us climbing up to God; like the attempt in Babel.​

No one said it was.

But God who descended down to us!​

Hallelujah and amen. But again, that's not relevant to the question at hand.

To save sinners from their sins! Because even our Faith & Repentance are God's gifts. But to contemplate this you must acknowledge what actually happened to us in the Fall. Your position as was mine before I understood. Is that Fallen Man's disposition before a Holy God is hostility, we're God haters, loving the darkness instead of the light. It is God who calls us out of the darkness into His marvelous light. Something Fervent must change fallen man's disposition toward God as sworn enemies to God's children. This Fervent is a Divine act of God himself. Not something we do, understand?​

Salvation is certainly a gift, but gifts must be received. According to you, God not only gives the gift but also receives it, so what part do you have in your salvation?

​

On the nature of will:
“In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion... his will being bound by the fetters of sin”. John Calvin

Like an addict who willingly consumes their vices without coercion, but is bound by their evil desires; to will or do what they love to do. Arminius himself understood this and held a doctrine of Total Depravity.

​

yeah, and the options are not Arminianism or Calvinism. There are more worlds than these, ladodgers6

 

[ladodgers6]

No, synergistic theologies don't hold a "lofty view of man", they simply don't denigrate man and deny that we are made in God's image. An image that was marred in the fall, but not destroyed.

I never said or even suggested man made in God's image was destroyed. I also hold to an image that is marred, but I will also add that fallen man postlapsarian is Totally Depraved. Now interesting enough Arminius also believe this as well. But other Synergistic theologies do not. Which my friend is a lofty view of fallen man.

Do you believe that Adam needed Donum Superadditum prelapsarian?


​

The options are not Arminianism or Calvinism, that false dichotomy is bound to lead to error.

I never said these are the only options. There are obviously a lot more false heresies than just Arminianism.

There is no saving ourselves, as the "decision" is an act of surrender to God's pursuit, not a seeking of God. Monergists seem to have a place for everything in their theology except themselves, the sin belongs to Adam and the faith belongs to God. No place for the monergist, none at all.

Well friend, either we are under a curse of sin or not. Either we are exiled or not. Either we can save ourselves or not. Either we are dead in sin or not. There is no third category as synergists suggest between life and death somewhere in limbo (Prevenient Grace). This friend is a man-made heresy. Like, "you will not surely die", one suggested.​

No one said it was.

Good! But the Synergists say otherwise. Sometimes you have to take the time and read the fine print.

Hallelujah and amen. But again, that's not relevant to the question at hand.

It is the crux of it!

Salvation is certainly a gift, but gifts must be received. According to you, God not only gives the gift but also receives it, so what part do you have in your salvation?

Gift means it's given freely to whom ever he wills because it is not earned nor can be because we are fallen. The only thing I contribute is sin, I have nothing else. Which it is why God also gives us renewed minds to understand him and new hearts to believe him.

This is why Jesus says he came to heal the sick. He will make the lame walk, the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead rise! It's His doing friend which is why we must be humbled, because we receive it with empty hands not by God owing us anything by what we do or will do.​

yeah, and the options are not Arminianism or Calvinism. There are more worlds than these, ladodgers6

 

[Fervent]

I never said or even suggested man made in God's image was destroyed. I also hold to an image that is marred, but I will also add that fallen man postlapsarian is Totally Depraved. Now interesting enough Arminius also believe this as well. But other Synergistic theologies do not. Which my friend is a lofty view of fallen man.​

The only way man could be totally depraved is if the imago dei was destroyed in the fall. it's not a lofty view of fallen man, you simply have a misanthropic view.

Do you believe that Adam needed Donum Superadditum prelapsarian?​

I don't think grace is over and above, and that all men including Adam are dependent on grace at every moment.

​

I never said these are the only options. There are obviously a lot more false heresies than just Arminianism.

It is Calvinism that is heresy, given that it didn't crop up until the 16th century.

Well friend, either we are under a curse of sin or not. Either we are exiled or not. Either we can save ourselves or not. Either we are dead in sin or not. There is no third category as synergists suggest between life and death somewhere in limbo (Prevenient Grace). This friend is a man-made heresy. Like, "you will not surely die", one suggested.​

The curse of sin is mortality and infirmity, not Total Depravity/inability

Good! But the Synergists say otherwise. Sometimes you have to take the time and read the fine print.

No, synergists don't. We are not Pelagians.

It is the crux of it!

Nope, just under your false dilemma.

Gift means it's given freely to whom ever he wills because it is not earned nor can be because we are fallen. The only thing I contribute is sin, I have nothing else. Which it is why God also gives us renewed minds to understand him and new hearts to believe him.

Freely given to all men, but only effective for those who receive. And under Calvinism you don't even contribute sin, as that's provided by Adam. so you have no part in salvation, it is irrelevant to you.

This is why Jesus says he came to heal the sick. He will make the lame walk, the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead rise! It's His doing friend which is why we must be humbled, because we receive it with empty hands not by God owing us anything by what we do or will do.​

We must receive it, God doesn't do that part for us. Unlike what Calvinism teaches.

 

[ARBITER01]

Round and round we go.

 

[ladodgers6]

The only way man could be totally depraved is if the imago dei was destroyed in the fall. it's not a lofty view of fallen man, you simply have a misanthropic view.

No Sir, you are not understanding. You make it seem that only a part of man is broken or missing. The whole man is fallen, everything from head to toe is affected and infected by Sin. All of His faculties are tainted with sin. But again by what you wrote, gives a very lofty view of man. And if you disagree that fallen man is Totally Depraved, then you must also believe that fallen man intrinsically good. This Sir, is Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism which by the way has been condemned by more Churches throughout history.​

I don't think grace is over and above, and that all men including Adam are dependent on grace at every moment.

Why not? Just curious.

It is Calvinism that is heresy, given that it didn't crop up until the 16th century.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard this. Classical Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace have been taught by the ECF's. It was Calvin who formulated and organized them.

The curse of sin is mortality and infirmity, not Total Depravity/inability

No Sir, curse of Sin is death & punishment, and eternal exile from God!

No, synergists don't. We are not Pelagians.

Well friend I suggest you do some research because Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism teach what you are saying here.

Nope, just under your false dilemma.

Oh, are you really saying that the incarnate God coming down into time and history is a false dilemma?​

Freely given to all men, but only effective for those who receive. And under Calvinism you don't even contribute sin, as that's provided by Adam. so you have no part in salvation, it is irrelevant to you.

We must receive it, God doesn't do that part for us. Unlike what Calvinism teaches.

Do you see the tough question you just walked into? I didn't when I was studying to destroy Calvinism when I was an Arminian. This question got me to think more deeply of the human plight and God.

So, if all who hear the Gospel and fully understand it and know exactly the outcome of which way they decision to choose. Why would anyone choose to reject God and burn? Furthermore, what's happens to those who know everything about their fate and reject the good news of the Gospel, are they zapped like in MIB and have their memory erased. Why do some believe while others do not?​

 

[Fervent]

No Sir, you are not understanding. You make it seem that only a part of man is broken or missing. The whole man is fallen, everything from head to toe is affected and infected by Sin. All of His faculties are tainted with sin. But again by what you wrote, gives a very lofty view of man. And if you disagree that fallen man is Totally Depraved, then you must also believe that fallen man intrinsically good. This Sir, is Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism which by the way has been condemned by more Churches throughout history.​

Not at all, and there is no such thing as "semi-pelagianism". The imago dei survived the fall, marred though it may be. The calvinist doctrine of total depravity is nothing but a misanthropic view of man that errs in the opposite direction to Pelagianism, with the truth lying in the middle.

Why not? Just curious.

Because I don't agree with Aquinas regarding some supernatural sense existing before the fall. I take the Orthodox view that what man lost is not a part of himself, but access to the continual sustenance of God.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard this. Classical Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace have been taught by the ECF's. It was Calvin who formulated and organized them.

Which ECFs? Only one who came close, to my knowledge, is tertullian and he's not exactly orthodox for a number of reasons.

No Sir, curse of Sin is death & punishment, and eternal exile from God!

Death, so mortality.

Well friend I suggest you do some research because Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism teach what you are saying here.

Semi-pelagianism is not a thing, except among Calvinists who try to smear John Cassian by associating him with a monastic group in france that was anathematized for their beliefs about baptism. I'm well aware of the smears that Calvinists have attempted, and their lack of historical veracity.

Oh, are you really saying that the incarnate God coming down into time and history is a false dilemma?​

No, the false dilemma Calvinists present between Pelagianism and Calvinism.

Do you see the tough question you just walked into? I didn't when I was studying to destroy Calvinism when I was an Arminian. This question got me to think more deeply of the human plight and God

What question is that, exactly?

.

So, if all who hear the Gospel and fully understand it and know exactly the outcome of which way they decision to choose. Why would anyone choose to reject God and burn? Furthermore, what's happens to those who know everything about their fate and reject the good news of the Gospel, are they zapped like in MIB and have their memory erased. Why do some believe while others do not?​

That's a question for those who reject God. Those who refuse to surrender love their sin beyond the point that God will tolerate, but that doesn't negate the genuine nature of the offer in the way that Calvinist doctrines render the gospel message void for those who happen to not be among the elect.