Zions New Children

[Strong in Him]

Jesus certainly did quote the ancient Prophets and He respected them, as did 2 Peter 1:19

Of course he did; they were his Scriptures.
He quoted them either to give an example, make a point, or to show that they were being fulfilled.

Your idea that we should not try to understand he Prophesies, is a much worse misapplication of scripture, than mine.

Where did I say that we don't need to understand them? Nowhere.
I said that we shouldn't read them and assume that we can apply them to our present day.

I haven't heard of anyone at all who says that Zechariah 5 prophesies nuclear weapons.
You do.
You say that the scroll, which you assume was rolled up so that it looked, roughly, tube shaped, and the basket with the lid made of lead, are the same thing. Then you've said; "most people, if asked, would say that a tube shaped object which is covered in lead and flies through the air is a nuclear weapon" - and have concluded that it must be.

As far as I can see there is no one at all who accepts/confirms your interpretation of the word. And I don't believe that you are the only person who is correct.

Daniel 12:10b says that some will understand, but most will not. Easy to figure your category.

Given that you've quoted only half of this verse - which you've taken out of context - I would say it's you who doesn't understand.

 

[keras]

Given that you've quoted only half of this verse - which you've taken out of context - I would say it's you who doesn't understand.

I quoted Daniel 12:10b..... only the wise leaders will understand.
The context is Daniel 12:8.....The Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end.
Your accusation is false.

Also, your rejection of a viable explanation of Zechariah 5, without any sensible alternative, is unreasonable and shows extreme bias, as well as just ignoring the present realty of the Middle East situation.

 

[Strong in Him]

I quoted Daniel 12:10b..... only the wise leaders will understand.

Half a verse.

The context is Daniel 12:8.....The Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end.

The context is the whole chapter - if not the whole book.
Daniel 12:1: "at that time" - at what time?
In verse 6 Daniel is asking how long it would be before all these things would be fulfilled.
Daniel 12:7 - "when the power of the holy people is broken". Then Daniel said that he heard but did not understand, so he asked what the outcome of those things would be.
Daniel 12:9, he was told to go on his way.
Daniel 12:10 - all of it, not just the bit you quoted:

Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

Future tense. Many WILL be purified, those who are wicked WILL continue to be wicked, the wise WILL understand.
You seem to be applying that now - you've already judged which category I am in.

Also, your rejection of a viable explanation of Zechariah 5, without any sensible alternative, is unreasonable and shows extreme bias, as well as just ignoring the present realty of the Middle East situation.

I've given you an explanation of Zechariah 5; the fact that you keep asking suggests that either you reject it, or that you are actually looking for a viable application to the world situation today.

This is what I've been asking all along: why do you think that you have the authority to apply prophecies to today?
Why do you read them and say; "this applies to ......" , "X situation is this passage being fulfilled"?
Why do you speak so scornfully of clergy and theologians - apparently they have it wrong and you, alone, are right?
It could be that many others, throughout the ages, have believed those verses were for their day. What makes you think you have it all sorted out - given that you've been wrong at least once already?

 

[eclipsenow]

That National Israel never accepted Christ (Romans 11:11), so by the order of the Great Commission spelt in Luke, they could not leave Jerusalem until that happen.

But some of them did, and significant church leaders from Jerusalem left to go verify events in other churches.
Jesus was clear. The kingdom of God is not of this world - and then exploded out of Jerusalem all over the Roman Empire within a few decades. In Acts 1:8 he declared that the gospel would be preached to the ends of the earth - and by the end of Acts we see that happening as it reached the heart of the Roman Empire. As they say, "All roads lead to Rome."

Basically, as far as the New Testament is concerned, there is no theological reason the Lord could not have returned then. The gospel WAS preached to all nations in biblical terms by the end of Acts. That's the theological significance of what we see. It's not geographically speaking accurate - but according to the concerns of the New Testament - there was absolutely nothing the bible requires to happen after the gospel reaches 'all nations.' (And in the overall thrust and vibe of the New Testament - the gospel reaching Rome seems to be that measure.)

Peter did not preach that Christ died for his sins and all he needed to do is to believe in his resurrection and he will be saved. Peter only knew the gospel of the kingdom, which is the gospel of the circumcision, as given by Acts 8:35 "work righteousness".

That's quite a dangerous reading of the passage and of the gospel Peter taught!
Question: if Cornelius was already saved through 'works righteousness' - why did God send an angel to tell Cornelius he needed to hear what Peter had to say?

Why did God send Peter the vision of the unclean animals - and that God declared them clean? This fits in with another question I might ask today: how is it that I, a gentile Australian, can be in God's kingdom right now, here in Sydney Australia?

Answer: Jesus death and resurrection on my behalf! The gospel of faith!

What does Peter talk about with Cornelius? The gospel of faith in Jesus death and resurrection - which Cornelius seemed to already know! But something about Peter's presentation was important enough for God to use angels and visions to get Peter to go and declare it to Cornelius so God could show THE CHURCH how God was pleased with the gentiles - and sent the Holy Spirit on them all.

Note how Peter says they ALREADY KNOW the gospel!

The gospel! From Acts 10: (and please understand these are biographical summaries of the message. Contraction was a common tool in biographical narrative in the literature back then. Peter probably spoke for hours!)

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

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39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”​

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44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.​

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Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.​

Gospel declared, Holy Spirit given, and Peter amazed at the way the kingdom of God was spreading even to gentiles.

You are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Do you recall Acts 8:1, last 3 words? I didn't said Apostles, I said the 12 + James, which will exclude Paul.

Do you mean Acts 1:8?
Do you mean to rejig what the bible actually says about Cornelius obviously receiving and believing in the gospel and receiving the Spirit as a result?

What is the point of all this? Some special role for Israel now? Some way to justify some eschatological expectation for Israel? Something to do with modern Jews re-establishing a Militant Zionist state that disobeys international law and unjustly runs an apartheid system, and robs Palestinians of their land? (Not that the Palestinians are shining angels in all this either - but if we look at the numbers in this particular conflict - Militant Zionism is FAR deadlier and harsher than Militant Islam!)

 

[eclipsenow]

I quoted Daniel 12:10b..... only the wise leaders will understand.
The context is Daniel 12:8.....The Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end.

The words are unpacked in Revelation for anyone who bothers to understand Apocalyptic Symbolism.
Your fever dreams of 2010 mislead you about 2012 and the AOD in 2026.
Why should we believe anything you say?

Also, your rejection of a viable explanation of Zechariah 5,

NOTHING you say about the OT is 'viable' as you rip everything out of context and make it about now.

Remember - most of the OT prophecies are about THEIR times and THEIR concerns, not ours.
They build and build on this idea of the judgement in the Day of the Lord - as the Assyrians ride in to Israel, as the Babylonians ride into Judah, and as the Persians later ride across the entire Middle East - and grant Israel the right to return home. Prophecy fulfilled! And yet... there are a few passages that refer to more to come.

Most of them are fulfilled in Jesus gospel events in eschatological tension.

without any sensible alternative, is unreasonable and shows extreme bias, as well as just ignoring the present realty of the Middle East situation.

Oh, right? That conflict that you said "will not fizzle out." On and on you went - and that was one of your SHORTER posts!

What that will be, is told to us in the Prophetic Word:​

Bible prophecy informs us of what will happen when a combined force of the neighbouring countries attack. The Lord Himself will destroy them, as per Psalm 83 and Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-35 - by a judgement of fire. “A fire set ablaze by My anger, on the Day of punishment and vengeance, at the moment My enemies make a mistake; their doom is fast approaching”.​

But rather than your futurist goggles on current affairs having all the Muslim countries join a coalition to fight Israel - guess what happened? Your futurist filters fluffed these affairs! There's a ceasefire. It DID 'fizzle out'. I'm not saying there's a lasting peace in the Middle East. I'm saying that THIS war DID fizzle out. You said it would not! You got all dogmatic, and did declareth -

"What that will be, is told to us in the Prophetic Word:"​

Except - wrong again. Fizzle. Oh - and rather than "combined force of the neighbouring countries attacking" - it is Militant Zionism that mainly continues the carnage - even in this 'peace.'

So now you have made false claims about 2012, how Gaza will not fizzle, AND the AOD 2026.
I hoped by now you would have learned?


As the FIRST comment on your Gaza thread of 2023 said:

And here we go again, another event happened, another "this is it" of futurism.​

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I think people should pay real money for every prophetical prediction they make. If it fails, the money will be given to charity. If it happens, the money will be returned.​

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Your success rate, so far, is zero. Its like saying "recession will come this year" every year until it happens, and then saying "I told you".​

Islam attacks Israel

There is no need to repeat the stories and images coming from the Jewish State of Israel, under attack from Hamas, a militant Islamic organization and a known Iranian proxy. This war will not fizzle out, there has to be a final outcome. What that will be, is told to us in the Prophetic Word...

www.christianforums.com

What do I predict for 2026?​

I predict that unless the Lord returns before then (which he could, because there's nothing theologically required to happen since the gospel reached Rome aka "all nations" nearly 2000 years ago) - I predict that futurists will continue to misread the prophets, misread theology, and misread current affairs.

They will see their patterns, make their declarations, and utterly embarrass the Lord with their false predictions.

Some of them will even be more excited about their pet-theories about the anti-Christ, and will tell non-Christians more about the anti-Christ than they will about Jesus!

That's what I predict.

And given the above examples of how futurism fluffs thinking, I'm pretty sure I'll be proved right.

Unless the Lord returns in the next 5 seconds.
Which he could.

 

[Guojing]

But some of them did, and significant church leaders from Jerusalem left to go verify events in other churches.
Jesus was clear. The kingdom of God is not of this world - and then exploded out of Jerusalem all over the Roman Empire within a few decades. In Acts 1:8 he declared that the gospel would be preached to the ends of the earth - and by the end of Acts we see that happening as it reached the heart of the Roman Empire. As they say, "All roads lead to Rome."

A remnant did, not the entire nation, as Paul explained in Romans 9-11

Why did God send Peter the vision of the unclean animals - and that God declared them clean?

So that he could defend Paul's gospel as legitimate later on in Acts 15

Do you mean Acts 1:8?

I meant Acts 8:1

 

[Guojing]

It is heaven comes down to new heaven and earth eventually.

So, at the end of the day, you still allow for a physical kingdom on Earth.

Is that what you meant by spiritual kingdom?

 

[eclipsenow]

A remnant did, not the entire nation, as Paul explained in Romans 9-11

You were talking about the leaders - not the repentance of the entire people group.
I don't know what you are saying otherwise. The subject seems to blur. Try to be clearer.

So that he could defend Paul's gospel as legitimate later on in Acts 15

Nope! So that he could do what he did in THAT passage - which was preach the gospel to Cornelius and confirm that indeed the Gentiles were in the kingdom, as were the Jews.

God poured the Holy Spirit out on them. Peter was astonished at the reality of the unity of the new kingdom!
THAT is what Cornelius was about - not pivoting to some other ministry later on!

I meant Acts 8:1

"On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria."
OK - but that's highlighting that the Apostles really loved their ministry to Jerusalem.
THEN guess what?
Acts continues.
And we see the Apostles I have already listed going out into all the world.

Why are we having this conversation?
What does this all mean to you? What's the bottom line on your reading of the Apostles staying behind in Jerusalem - and IF it were true (it's not) that none of them EVER left Jerusalem (they did) - why is that important, given the clear teaching of the New Testament as to who God's people are?

 

[Guojing]

You were talking about the leaders - not the repentance of the entire people group.
I don't know what you are saying otherwise. The subject seems to blur. Try to be clearer.

I already said "National Israel", how clearer you want?

Nope! So that he could do what he did in THAT passage - which was preach the gospel to Cornelius and confirm that indeed the Gentiles were in the kingdom, as were the Jews.

See Acts 15

Why are we having this conversation?

You asked me questions about my post to another person, and I answered your questions. That is why we are having this conversation

What does this all mean to you? What's the bottom line on your reading of the Apostles staying behind in Jerusalem - and IF it were true (it's not) that none of them EVER left Jerusalem (they did) - why is that important, given the clear teaching of the New Testament as to who God's people are?

That national Israel rejected Christ (Romans 11:11), meaning the 12 could not leave Jerusalem.

 

[eclipsenow]

I already said "National Israel", how clearer you want?

No - you were talking about how the Apostles never left Jerusalem in previous posts.
That is not true. Some did. But otherwise...

That national Israel rejected Christ (Romans 11:11), allowing salvation to go to gentiles.

Well - I pretty much agree. We could be on the same page then - at least regards to this!

I apologise. I'm Australian, you're in Singapore, and this is the internet.
I probably assumed something else was going on - as this forum can get real weird, real fast.
Soz.

 

[Guojing]

No - you were talking about how the Apostles never left Jerusalem in previous posts.
That is not true. Some did. But otherwise...

I said the 12 + James, and I gave you Acts 8:1.

If you want to believe otherwise, I am fine.

Well - I pretty much agree. We could be on the same page then - at least regards to this!

Romans 11:11 is clear enough.

 

[eclipsenow]

I said the 12 + James, and I gave you Acts 8:1.

If you want to believe otherwise, I am fine.

Sure Acts 8:1 shows their love for and focus on Jerusalem.
Generally speaking they saw that as their general focus - while the 'new' apostle Paul had the amazing ministry to the Gentiles.
But it was not as segregated as you claimed when you said:

"The 12 + James never left Jerusalem in their lifetime, because the nation of Israel never accepted Christ as their Messiah. Cornelius was a one off incident and he was saved under the same program that Israel had."​

Cornelius WAS saved by the gospel - read the chapter! And the whole point of it was that he was not a Jew, but a Gentile - so this business of being "saved under the same program that Israel had" is not true. Peter's talk might have had some rhetorical flourish in the way he said "as you already know" or it might have actually been the case. But whatever the matter before Peter's arrival, by the end of the chapter Cornelius is a gospel believing spirit filled Gentile. And it took Peter and John - 2 of the 12, to actually leave Jerusalem.

Oh - then you want us to forget that Peter goes to Lydda, then Joppa, then in 10:23 Caesarea / Cornelius. Acts 9:32–43

And as I said, other senior church leaders from Jerusalem were also sent out. I grant Philip the evangelist is not one of the 12, but a senior leader. It shows while they where primarily caught up in the ministry in Jerusalem, there was some overlap with Gentile ministry in other cities as well.
(Acts 8:5 Samaria, 8:40 then Caesarea.)

 

[Guojing]

Sure Acts 8:1 shows their love for and focus on Jerusalem. Generally speaking they saw that as their general focus -

You are aware of the order specified in Luke's version of the Great Commission Luke 24:47?

The 12 were aware that the final week of Daniel's prophecy, the 70th week, will begin anytime after the cross (Acts 2:16-21), once Acts 7 happened and national Israel stoned Stephen, Peter was expecting that final week to begin anytime (1 Peter 1:5-9),

So there is a reason why they never left Jerusalem, and its not for the love.

 

[samaus123456789]

When you say new Jerusalem, are you referring to heaven, or a place on earth?

Yes new heaven, and earth then the new Jerusalem comes down to it. By the sound of it it is not made of periodic matter like we have now carbon nitrogen etc as the gold is clear sheets which does not exist in our world. So the new heaven, and earth is not made of periodic matter whatever it is made of. You never answered my question- are you IO preterist?

 

[Guojing]

Yes new heaven, and earth then the new Jerusalem comes down to it. By the sound of it it is not made of periodic matter like we have now carbon nitrogen etc as the gold is clear sheets which does not exist in our world. So the new heaven, and earth is not made of periodic matter whatever it is made of. You never answered my question- are you IO preterist?

No I am not.