Trump dispenses with trials, orders military strike on alleged Venezuelan drug-trafficking boat (Now up to 2, 3, 4...)

[RocksInMyHead]

How in the world would you know that these people are just poor fishermen?

The families of some of the people killed have spoken up. And, just logically speaking, that's who you'd want to hire for a job like this. They know how to operate a boat, they know the waters, they're willing to work for cheap, and if they're caught, they can't reveal anything of substance because they don't know anything. I'm not going to claim that every person on those boats was a poor fisherman (or someone similarly divorced from the actual cartel structure), but I'd bet most of them were.

And, again, the point is that it doesn't really make a difference who they were, precisely.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

It doesn’t.

Then why bring it up?

After the war the ones that escaped and were captured were put on trial. During the war most top nazi’s were either killed or took their own lives.

The suicides are irrelevant. As far as I know, only Heydrich (of the major Nazi figures) was killed during the war (in 1942).

 

[Servus]

"Even the top Nazis were put on trial. How are these South American drug traffickers so much worse?"

Did you see any low rank noncom Nazis on trial along with Goering?

 

[RDKirk]

Did you see any low rank noncom Nazis on trial along with Goering?

Generally speaking, no. The same was true of My Lai.

That's because it was recognized the lower ranking troops didn't know or understand the laws their nations had signed to observe, and in the military ignorance of the law is an effective defense.

The US fixed that situation with comprehensive annual Law of Armed Conflict training that is mandatory for every service member.

So, nobody can claim ignorance of the law.

 

[stevevw]

I think there needs to be a clear assessment placed in the minds of cartels that the United States is the last place on earth they want to try smuggling drugs into.

I think the US is one of their biggest markets being on their door step. It would be hard to smuggle large quantities of drugs further away so they will depend on the US a lot.

This will be a major blow and I think one that will also perhaps have an effect on the nation and its government. Trump has now made the whole drug smuggling problem an international issue and I think it could have a major change on both nations for the better hopefully. As nothing was was being done and that was also wrong.

 

[stevevw]

Well, there we have it. Comitting the textbook example of a war crime is "bold and brave". Extreme solutions are needed to save the lives of your people. You just have to be keep being brutal to solve the problem.

This kind of reasoning has been used to rationalise the worst atrocities of mankind. But with an army as strong as yours and the world too fractured to oppose you, perhaps this time you can kill your way to utopia.

Lol who are you referring to as "yours" and "your people". I am not from the US. So its not about saving my nations people but just saving humans.

Like I said this has created an ethical dilemma. Either we sit back and do nothing and continue to allow 1,000s to die and have theirs and their families lives destroyed. And the community as a result because drugs is alse a family and community problem.

Or we try to negociate and plead or give incentives for the Narcos to stop. Or we plead with Moros to step down and get someone in who will be tough on the Narcos. Because Moros is corrupt and is benefiting form the drug trade.

I am pretty sure the US has over the years been pleading, negociating and even sanctioning Venezuela to stop or reduce the drug trade. But the fact is its actually increased tremendously.

I think the Narcos are so ingrained into the government and Venezuelas economy that there is no way they will stop willingly. Its a bit like Hamas. Its like a religion that is ingrained and part of their culture.

So what is the solution. Just sit back and watch tons of drugs come into the US and another million people die in the next generation and all the chaos that comes with it for families and communities.

Do you think that now that the drug boats have just about stopped and its saving lives is a good thing.

 

[stevevw]

Isn't cocaine the main drug coming from or going through Venezuela? The annual cocaine overdose deaths in the US is on the scale of 20000-30000 from memory.

How is the math mathing here?

I don't know and why does it matter. All I know is that theres an aweful lot of deaths.

This is what was mentioned. That theres enough drugs on each boat to kill 20,000 people. That may not happen in one year as not every one will overdose and die.

Its averaged out over a generation where there was around a million deaths. By why does it matter quibbling about numbers. Its bad. Like they said this is more deaths than all the major wars of the 20th century.

Why are not people protesting and shutting down Universities and streets over 1,000s of people being killed by the flooding of drugs from a neighbouring nation.

If all the protests are about living together in peace then if my neighbour or a house down the street was flooding the town or city with drugs. I think most people would be upset and want the drug suppliers stopped.

 

[Gene2memE]

Generally speaking, no. The same was true of My Lai.

That's because it was recognized the lower ranking troops didn't know or understand the laws their nations had signed to observe, and in the military ignorance of the law is an effective defense.

The US fixed that situation with comprehensive annual Law of Armed Conflict training that is mandatory for every service member.

So, nobody can claim ignorance of the law.

I've been listening to some US national security lawyers on this topic. What's been interesting is the differences between the military lawyers and the intelligence community lawyers.

The former have universally been of the opinion that the strikes are illegal and most have condemned them.

The most commonly cited legal objections are that there's been no Congressional approval, that drug smuggling is a quintessential criminal activity not a military one, that there are reasonable and readily available alternatives to lethal strikes and that the classification of these groups as 'narcoterrorist' organisations is legally dubious (at best).

The intelligence community lawyers have been much more circumspect and seems to be more split about the legality and the necessity. S

ome argue that 'something' needed to be done and this 'sends a message' and while the strikes are likely illegal that misses the point and the law needs to catch up. Others point out that basic thresholds like 'response to armed attack' or 'acting in self-defense' - which are present in both US and international law - are absent and that without a Congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) the whole thing here is illegal (because drug smuggling clearly doesn't even come close to the established legal definitions of terrorism under the US code).

A former IC community lawyer pointed out that if the current US position is found legal then a country like Venezuela could designate Lockheed Martin, RTX and Boeing as 'terrorist organisations' and proceed to legally blow up passenger jets with their employees on board.

 

[stevevw]

I don't know if it's a good thing, but it apparently is the Christian thing to do.

Why is it always the 'Christians'. Like they are always the mean ones. Isn't this whole thing a matter of subjective opinion. You could say those who have sat by and quietly allowed 1,000s to die and families and communities destroyed due to policy inaction is being a mean as well.

Most nations and most non-Christians in this country think that if you sink an enemy ship it is wrong to machine gun the survivors in the water.

I think this is making a false equivalence. This is conflating the ethics of fake news and a seperate issue with the issue of whether stopping the drug boats full stop is ok or not. We don't even know if the fake news is verified. But your quick to spread the narrative without evidence.

Let me clarify also that none of this is a good thing as far as Christian values. War and using force and killing others even if justified to save many is still not a good thing. Compared to it not having to happen in the first place.

But thats not always how life works and there actually is evil in the world.

The reality is sooner or later this is going to be the case. That as evil grows and encroaches on others its a case of how far you tolerate this. If you have negociated and reasoned and pleaded and they don't stop then what do we do.

I think it depends and when it comes to national security and safety then this is a different situation. If the practices of another State are harming people what do you do. If the government of that nation knows whats happening and even participates in it. What then.

In some ways the drug boats are like terrorist who are aiming their poison at other nations to exploit and profit off them and are quite willing and knowingly murdering 1,000s of people in another nation in the process.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

I don't know and why does it matter. All I know is that theres an aweful lot of deaths.

What is the connection between the cargo on the boat and drug overdose deaths? Does removing one boat actually reduce overdose deaths with 20000? You are justifying killing the people on the boat because the cargo kills someone els. So how many lives are saved by sinking the boat and killing those on it?

This is what was mentioned.

By whom, did they give a source?

That theres enough drugs on each boat to kill 20,000 people. That may not happen in one year as not every one will overdose and die.

So how would what was on the boats kill 20000?

Its averaged out over a generation where there was around a million deaths.

By cocaine overdose?

By why does it matter quibbling about numbers.

If you present numbers, I will ask about numbers.

Its bad. Like they said this is more deaths than all the major wars of the 20th century.

Why are not people protesting and shutting down Universities and streets over 1,000s of people being killed by the flooding of drugs from a neighbouring nation.

So how many drug deaths can be laid at the feet of Venezuela?

If all the protests are about living together in peace then if my neighbour or a house down the street was flooding the town or city with drugs. I think most people would be upset and want the drug suppliers stopped.

Sure, I don't have any problem with interdicting drug smugglers. Straight up executing them, not really ok to me.

 

[Gene2memE]

I don't know and why does it matter. All I know is that theres an aweful lot of deaths.

This is what was mentioned. That theres enough drugs on each boat to kill 20,000 people. That may not happen in one year as not every one will overdose and die.

Its averaged out over a generation where there was around a million deaths. By why does it matter quibbling about numbers. Its bad. Like they said this is more deaths than all the major wars of the 20th century.

Why are not people protesting and shutting down Universities and streets over 1,000s of people being killed by the flooding of drugs from a neighbouring nation.

If all the protests are about living together in peace then if my neighbour or a house down the street was flooding the town or city with drugs. I think most people would be upset and want the drug suppliers stopped.

The US has historically rejected this argument, because it can be inverted and argued about US actions like sanctions.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(25)00189-5/fulltext

 

[stevevw]

Have you not noticed that the US courts have felt no compunction in prosecuting drug traffickers who never even entry the US? Recently the president of Honduras was tried, convicted, and sentenced to 40 years in a US federal prison for his efforts in trafficking 400 tons (!) of cocaine over a couple decades.

[voice off screen, peanuts style] wah wah wa waa wawah.

[Me] He did what?

[voice off screen, peanuts style] wah wawah wah waa wawah.

[Me] Oh [expletive deleted]!

Never mind.

So how do they get Moros into a US prison. Will that stop the drug trade.

Not saying its right but it seems just a few boats blown out of the water has just about stopped the trade overnight.

The same thing happened with Hamas. The US bombed Iranian nuclear bunkers, take out Hama leaders and then threaten Hamas to be wiped off the face of the earth. Hamas was then negociation a peace deal to let the remaining hostages go. No other method achieved such an outcome.

Sometimes evil people don't care and are not open to negociations and doing the right thing. So what do you do then.

 

[stevevw]

What is the connection between the cargo on the boat and drug overdose deaths? Does removing one boat actually reduce overdose deaths with 20000? You are justifying killing the people on the boat because the cargo kills someone els. So how many lives are saved by sinking the boat and killing those on it?

The good old trolley ethical dilemma.

You could ask the question a number of ways. How many lives are taken and destroyed by a boat load of drugs. Just like the trolly dilemma you have to choose between 5 people or 1 person. Or it may be 5 people on the drug boat and howevermany is estimated from a boat load of drugs. I would say it would be way more than 5.

But unlike the trolly dilemma if you do nothing instead of killing 1 or 5 people. By allowing it to go on you are allowing onging killing on your door step knowingly of a million over a generation.

So if taking out 5 boats stops the drug boats then so long as its stopped you will have saved a million people over a generation. But even if its half that or just saving lives for 1 year its still more lives saved.

By whom, did they give a source?

Now your concerned about sources lol.

Every Venezuelan drug boat leads to 25,000 deaths, Trump claims

The U.S. has carried out at least three strikes on alleged Venezuelan drug carrying vessels since the beginning of September.

www.navytimes.com

So how would what was on the boats kill 20000?

I don't know, this is what was claimed. I guess if you average it out over a generation then the amount of drugs on each boat is equivelent to killing 20k over that generation.

By cocaine overdose?

Yes and I think this is mixed with fentanyl.

So how many drug deaths can be laid at the feet of Venezuela?

Does it matter. Lets say its 25k a year. Or even 10k. If terrorist came into a country and killed 10,000 people would that be ok. Whats the difference between a weapon and a poison that kills people.

Sure, I don't have any problem with interdicting drug smugglers. Straight up executing them, not really ok to me.

Ok so we just let them continue to smuggle drugs in and kill 1,000s.

So do you think assassinating Hamas leads or Iranian leaders who planned and plotted to murder 1,000s through terror was wrong without a trial.

 

[Nithavela]

Do you think that now that the drug boats have just about stopped and its saving lives is a good thing.

Have they?

There is too much money in the drug trade for it to just dry up after a few destroyed boats.

Besides, this isn't really about the drug trade. It's about the USA going after another country with oil that they think they can manufacture a reason to attack. With Iraq it was "weapons of mass destructions". With Venezuela it's "narco-terrorism".

Just that this time, the government of the USA feels that they don't need to convince international allies and cobble together an "alliance of the willing". They just need to convince the people of their own country.

 

[stevevw]

The US has historically rejected this argument, because it can be inverted and argued about US actions like sanctions.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(25)00189-5/fulltext

The article seems to be saying that even sanctions kill people. Even more people then war. So what is the solution.

All I know is that sanctions and diplomacy and even bribes have not worked for some. Whatever the previous administration did it did not work and in fact made an even bigger problem.

 

[Perpetual Student]

"Even the top Nazis were put on trial. How are these South American drug traffickers so much worse?"

Did you see any low rank noncom Nazis on trial along with Goering?

That isn't Rocksinmyhead's point. His point is that people who committed one of the most horrible crimes ever received a fair trial. The alleged crime of drug smuggling is way less evil than the Nazi crimes. And yet they are murdered at sea on allegations alone and this murders are justified by the Trump administration and different members here.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

The good old trolley ethical dilemma.

You could ask the question a number of ways. How many lives are taken and destroyed by a boat load of drugs. Just like the trolly dilemma you have to choose between 5 people or 1 person. Or it may be 5 people on the drug boat and howevermany is estimated from a boat load of drugs. I would say it would be way more than 5.

Why?

But unlike the trolly dilemma if you do nothing instead of killing 1 or 5 people.

Who is talking about doing nothing? Drug interdiction is ongoing all the time.

By allowing it to go on you are allowing onging killing on your door step knowingly of a million over a generation.

So if taking out 5 boats stops the drug boats then so long as its stopped you will have saved a million people over a generation.

Most of the boats sunk was nowhere close to the US.

But even if its half that or just saving lives for 1 year its still more lives saved.

Now your concerned about sources lol.

I am always interested in sources, as you well know.

Every Venezuelan drug boat leads to 25,000 deaths, Trump claims

The U.S. has carried out at least three strikes on alleged Venezuelan drug carrying vessels since the beginning of September.

www.navytimes.com

So a claim by Trump, that is what you're going from? This is the guy who claimed to stop the war between Albania and Azerbaijan. A look at a single article fact-checking him shows that he has a loose relationship with the truth.

I don't know, this is what was claimed. I guess if you average it out over a generation then the amount of drugs on each boat is equivelent to killing 20k over that generation.

So in total over a generation only 40-50 boatloads of drugs enter the us? That seems unlikely, they have sunk what is it 22 (21?) this year alone?

Yes and I think this is mixed with fentanyl.

Wouldn't it be good if they interdicted the boats and actually checked what was in the cargo?

Most fentanyl I believe comes over the Mexico border.

Does it matter. Lets say its 25k a year. Or even 10k. If terrorist came into a country and killed 10,000 people would that be ok. Whats the difference between a weapon and a poison that kills people.

Ok so we just let them continue to smuggle drugs in and kill 1,000s.

Why would you think that? The US could bring them to court instead.

So do you think assassinating Hamas leads or Iranian leaders who planned and plotted to murder 1,000s through terror was wrong without a trial.

If not in a state of war, yes. Intentional killings outside the legal system is problematic to me.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

That isn't Rocksinmyhead's point. His point is that people who committed one of the most horrible crimes ever received a fair trial. The alleged crime of drug smuggling is way less evil than the Nazi crimes. And yet they are murdered at sea on allegations alone and this murders are justified by the Trump administration and different members here.

It was actually my point but yes that’s it. we put the Nazis on trial not just to prove their crimes but also to show the world how we operate. That we’re better than them and for a little while, that was true.

 

[stevevw]

Have they?

Yes evidently so. If the US is issuing warnings that the smugglers will be stopped then I think it will at least stop a fair percentage.

There is too much money in the drug trade for it to just dry up after a few destroyed boats.

Yes and they will find other ways. It needs to be a joint effort with Venezuela. But this would even be hard for the current Venezuelan government as they have no desire to stop it.

Besides, this isn't really about the drug trade. It's about the USA going after another country with oil that they think they can manufacture a reason to attack. With Iraq it was "weapons of mass destructions". With Venezuela it's "narco-terrorism".

Thats rather cynnical. I know that western nations have atrack record of vested interests in just about everything they do. Nothing done for the sake of good with no strings attached. To some degree that is the trade off and how politics works. They don't do it for nothing.

But I think there comes a time when forigne problems can spill onto another nation. Especially when they are neighbours. Look at Gaza. So its not always about money or oil but how far you will tolerate another nations encroaching and affecting another nation.

But I go back to the fact that all this moral outrage is all too late. Weher was it when this has been cultivated for years and allowed to get this bad. Nothing has worked with all the diplomacy and reasoning. I don't know what the answer is.

But certainly Trump has highlighted the isse and I don't think this is about oil. As Musk explained so well this is generational change in what direction and world we leave our children.

Just that this time, the government of the USA feels that they don't need to convince international allies and cobble together an "alliance of the willing". They just need to convince the people of their own country.

Thats because its comepletely different to the past issues that required an alliance of nations. This seems a localised issue between two nations. The administration is dealing with their own backyard instead of getting some far away issue.

I agree its a worry that governments can act without proper proceedure. I am not sure of the details. But what they are doing is not unprecedented from what I understand.

I think it can be rationalised both ways. It could be said the continued trafficking of people and drugs into the US is of national security considering the terror and crime that has happened recently. To export poison into the US that destroyed people and its communities.

But it also comes with organised crime and threats from foreign adversaries who often exploit these situations to undermine the US and other western nations.

I think its much more complex than most people think and of bigger concern than just boats coming with drugs.

 

[Servus]

That isn't Rocksinmyhead's point. His point is that people who committed one of the most horrible crimes ever received a fair trial. The alleged crime of drug smuggling is way less evil than the Nazi crimes. And yet they are murdered at sea on allegations alone and this murders are justified by the Trump administration and different members here.

No I got his point. But in reality Narco kingpins are the ones who will stand trial, just like Nazi top brass did. How many Viet Cong stood trial? How many al-Qaeda?