Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

[Mark Quayle]

God is not a torturing monster ... to think so is ridiculous

I agree. Who is characterizing him as "a torturing monster"?

Hell is the grave .... Jesus Himself ... and many other places in the bible describes death as a dormant sleep (1st death) why? Because one day ALL will be resurrected (woken from their sleep)

And....?

Christian theology holds that Jesus's divine nature is what enabled him to survive death and be resurrected, but it was his human nature that experienced death. His death was a sacrifice made possible by his dual nature, and his resurrection was due to the power of God.

Yes.

It's about eternal life (living with God forever-eternal existence) or eternal death (eternal non(existence)

Or so you term it.

We are not to be confused about death ... the 1st death is temporary ... the 2nd death is final for eternity.

Definitely final. No doubt there.

 

[Dan1988]

I hope your salvation is genuine as well, because Christians shouldn't be making it an obsessive habit of constantly going around, poking other Christians in the eye and declaring that "...if you're not like me in following Calvin, you're on the WRONG path!!!..."

John Calvin doesn't save. Jesus does, and He was doing so well before Calvin ever came along. Don't forget that.

You used a lot of words to say nothing. You obviously can't find a single fault with my theology, so you just resort to the lowest common denominator, that being slander.

I have thoroughly debunked your theory, with scripture. But all you have to offer is your knee jerk reaction to things you don't understand. That only exposes your insecurity and emotional instability.

 

[Dan1988]

This has been debated for centuries so naturally there are several interpretations. Never the less, all of Jesus Christ's parables hold a spiritual message whether its based on real people or not.It is typically still treated as a parable because it shares the same structure and teaching style as the others.
In my opinion, it is a parable revealing the path towards the afterlife just like many of His teachings.
Thanks for sharing!

Even if it was a parable, it confirms the awful truth about hell. The rich man was only awaiting the coming final sentencing, when he will be cast into the lake of fire, where there will be no talking, only gnashing f teeth and wailing.

Death row prisoners still experience torment, but it's nothing compared to what comes at the final judgement.

Many Christians try to spiritualise the bible doctrine of eternal concise torment in hell. But there's no getting around the fact that the Lord Jesus confirmed that un believers are cast into the lake of fire, in their resurrected bodies and their worm dies not. They all wish they could cease to exist but that option is not available and they are condemned to suffer eternal torment, without any hope of escape or parole.

 

[Dan1988]

It would seem like you still need to educate yourself some more. Oh that's right, you have teachers for whom you look to for that.

But angels do have bodies. So much so that they are often called men in the bible. They can wash, eat and so on. We can even be sustained by their food. So the description in Ezekiel is exactly on point. As well as the Malachi verses which you continually ignore. A fire consumes, plain and simple and those verses prove it. If you believe otherwise, by all means break down the Malachi verses.

And the rich man and Lazarus just proves there is a gulf at this point. No one has been thrown into the Lake of Fire yet. That's the consuming fire -the second death at Judgement Day.

No, that's not true. The Bible confirms that Angels and Fallen Angels are both Spiritual Beings, just as God Himself is. God is a Spirit and the entire Spiritual Ream is made up of Spiritual beings only.

There is nothing in the Bible to support your opinion that Angels are flesh and blood men. I think you have failed to consider the fact that Angels have a God given power to perform miracles, and we know miracles are supernatural acts which don't conform to natural laws.

We know that a single Angel killed 186,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night, so we know that Angel didn't take on a flesh and blood body to achieve such a feat. He killed fully armed elite soldiers, without using any weapons, so lets not limit Angels to flesh and blood weak vessels, like men.

Angels can take on any form, depending on the task at hand. If what you're suggesting was true then Satan should have ceased to exist 6000 years ago when He took on the form of a Serpent. But no, Satan is alive and well to this day, because there is no such thing as cessation of existence.

 

[Dan1988]

• Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 is cited to support the belief that the dead "know nothing" and have no activity or knowledge in the grave (Sheol).
• Psalm 146:4 states that when a person dies, their thoughts perish.
• Psalm 115:17 indicates that the dead do not praise the Lord.
• Job 14:10-12 describes death as a state of lying down until a future resurrection.
• Genesis 3:19, concerning returning to dust, is seen as the punishment for sin, rather than eternal torment.
• John 11:11-14, where Jesus describes Lazarus' death as a "sleep," is interpreted as a metaphor for the unconscious state of death before resurrection.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 should be interpreted as Solomons "under the sun" perspective, meaning it describes life and death from a purely earthly, human point of view, without the full revelation of the afterlife found in the New Testament. The passage serves to highlight the vanity and futility of seeking meaning and fulfillment only in worldly accomplishments and pleasures.

The understanding of the afterlife was limited in the Old Testament compared to the clear teachings of Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament (e.g., Jesus' resurrection and the promise of eternal life).

The statement that "the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) is saying, the dead have no further activity or share in earthly affairs. It does not contradict the New Testament teaching that the soul/spirit lives on and returns to God.

All of the other verses you referred to support the Bible doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment in hell.

 

[Dan1988]

Ezek 28:

15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

========================

Malachi 4:
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.


I find your logic illusive just then

"cease to be forever"
"wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life"
destroyed as in "by reducing them to ashes" 2 Peter 2

No doubt the second death of Rev 20 does involve a great deal of suffering and torment but it ends just as Ezek 28 states even for the devil himself

You failed to understand that Ezek 28 is not speaking about the devil. It's actually about Lucifer, who was not created as a devil, but became "the Devil" or Satan, after He rebelled against God and sinned.

It would really help your cause if you did a bit of a study to understand the surrounding context of the scriptures, you refer to. It's not profitable to just pluck them out of their intended context and misapply them to support your unbiblical opinion.

Yes God will burn the whole earth and every living thing in it, with fervent heat and the elements such as rocks will melt away. But nothing will be annihilated, because He will restore everything and everyone back to their proper estate again. Lucifer was destroyed, so He doesn't exist anymore as Lucifer. Now He exists as Satan or the Devil.

No man will exist in his current form, in the life to come. Some will be resurrected to glory and others to their damnation. But there's no escaping into annihilationism, it's simply not an option.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You used a lot of words to say nothing. You obviously can't find a single fault with my theology, so you just resort to the lowest common denominator, that being slander.

I haven't slandered you by pointing out that just about all you do is poke other Christians in the eye, constantly. While I might share an occasional critical aspersion upon opinions other, fellow Christians express, I don't generally make it a habit of invariably insinuating that unless they each agree with me and my theological viewpoint that they're in danger of losing eternal life in Christ. No, I tend to give other Trinitarian Christians the benefit of fellowship without to much regard for the specifics of what they personally believe.

I have thoroughly debunked your theory, with scripture. But all you have to offer is your knee jerk reaction to things you don't understand. That only exposes your insecurity and emotional instability.

.... I'm so insecure! Especially since I've learned my theology from several hundred Christian Theologians, Philosophers and Historians.

So yeah, I'm very, very insecure.

 

[JulieB67]

The word commandment does not appear in the Greek.

The Greek word is ἐντολή entole -injunction- i.e. an authoritative prescription -commandment, precept.

Also, what bible translation are you using?

I'm using the KJV. And the link you posted has commandments in it as well.

I was trying but apparently only you can lol

But you have but a few verses that you believe supports you. Are you supposed to thrown out the rest of the Bible then? I try not to do that and try and seek reason within it to come to the right conclusion.

So you believe there's no such thing as death? Again, why use that word if all have life in the end? And why does Christ specifically use the word "second' death?

Then you drank the kool aid

Yeah, well I think of it as I stopped drinking the kool aid.

 

[JulieB67]

No, that's not true.

What's not true? That they don't have bodies? So much so that human men wanted to have their way with them? That they can't eat? We know they can. And we can eat their food as well. All of this is true.

There is nothing in the Bible to support your opinion that Angels are flesh and blood men.

I didn't state they had flesh and blood but that they had bodies and those bodies can eat, etc.

so lets not limit Angels to flesh and blood weak vessels, like men.

I never did. You might want to read my post again. I said they have bodies and are often "called" men in the bible. Angels look just like we do. Or should I say we look just like them. "Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness...."

Just because an angel is a spirit doesn't mean a body does not surround that spirit. They have mass, they can eat, etc. We are the ones that are made to look like them, not the other way around. Only difference is we are flesh and blood. They are not.

 

[Hentenza]

The Greek word is ἐντολή entole -injunction- e.e. an authoritative prescription -commandment, precept.

I'm using the KJV and the link you posted with has commandments in it as well.

στολή stolḗ, stol-ay'; from G4724; equipment, i.e. (specially), a "stole" or long-fitting gown (as a mark of dignity):—long clothing (garment), (long) robe.

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 9x
The KJV translates Strong's G4749 in the following manner: robe (5x), long clothing (1x), long garment (1x), them (with G848) (1x), long robe (1x).

Most updated translations use stole which translates as robes or garments. One of the reasons why I dont use the KJV.

But you have but a few verses that you believe supports you. Are you supposed to thrown out the rest of the Bible then? I try not to that and try and seek reason within it to come to the right conclusion.

The Bible interprets itself. There is no tension if you interpret it correctly. In your doctrine there is plenty of tension added that should not be there. I not only have a “few” verses as you call it but also linguistic and ECF evidence.

For instance, your doctrine rests on a bad interpretation of “destroy” which you guys interpret as utterly destroy but that is not the case. The word used to describe how the world was destroyed (apollumi) “being flooded with water,” but the world was still there (2 Peter 3:6). Also, consider how it can be in references to people who are spiritually lost (apollumi) such as the lost sheep of Israel but were still alive (Matt. 10:6; 15:24), and the Prodigal Son who was lost (apollumi), yet still alive (Luke 15:24, 32). So, it can be used to designate the destruction of something that remains.

So you don't believe there's no such thing as death? Again, why use that word if all have life in the end? And why does Christ specifically use the word "second' death?

There is death for the body in the first death, hence the body decomposes or is turned to ashes in an earthly, physical fire like the ones the destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The spirit goes back to God that created it (Ecc. 12). During the second death all are resurrected, ie given new bodies, some to eternal life but the wicked to eternal punishment.

Please cite the verse about Christ and the second death that you want to discuss. Thanks.

Yeah, well I think of it as I stopped drinking the kool aid.

That’s all I can ask.

 

[JulieB67]

but the wicked to eternal punishment.

In other words according your belief- "some to eternal life but the wicked to eternal life in hell" Even though not one verse when talking about eternal life contrasts it with eternal life in hell. It's always contrasted with perishing or death.

. During the second death all are resurrected,

There's not one verse stating that.

Christ states -Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Most updated translations use stole which translates as robes or garments.

Well, a deeper study on which manuscripts to believe in is sometimes in order. There are discussions on which Greek word is the correct one in this case.
I like the KJV just for the fact that every word at least can be translated back. Sure there's some mistakes in the KJV (Easter, etc) but not every translation is perfect. But at least I can take a verse with the word "taken" for example -if I take it back to the Greek we come up with multiple Greek words for just that one word. And with multiple meanings as they are being utilized in certain verses. I don't think the new versions can do that. But correct me if that's the case. But I believe given the context in verse 11 the word ἐντολή entole is correct one.

Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

Is that not a commandment to us? I believe so.

I know we will most likely not change each other's minds at this point...

 

[Hentenza]

In other words according your belief-

Not just my belief but that of mainstream Christianity. That’s the reason why this topic is relegated to controversial theology on this site.

"some to eternal life but the wicked to eternal life in hell"

Yep. That’s what scripture teach.

Even though not one verse when talking about eternal life contrasts it with eternal life in hell. It's always contrasted with perishing or death.

Really? Shall we start with the obvious one?

Matt. 25:46
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭46‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

bible.com

And yes, aionios does mean eternal and no, nothing about death in this verse.

Please don’t use the old, tired argument that death is eternal punishment.

Christ states -Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Yep. And?

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Yep. And?

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Yep. And yet, the wicked are still alive in Rev. 22:15 so your definition of death does not work.

Here is the actual definition.

Strong’s Definitions
θάνατος thánatos, than'-at-os; from G2348; (properly, an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively):—X deadly, (be…) death.

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 119x
The KJV translates Strong's G2288 in the following manner: death (117x), deadly (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. the death of the body
   1. that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
   2. with the implied idea of future misery in hell
      1. the power of death
   3. since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
2. metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
   1. the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4. in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

The problem is assigning only the definition that seems to help your doctrine but all you are doing is ignoring linguistic context so error usually follows.

Well, a deeper study on which manuscripts to believe in is sometimes in order. There are discussions on which Greek word is the correct one in this case.
I like the KJV just for the fact that every word at least can be translated back. Sure there's some mistakes in the KJV (Easter, etc) but not every translation is perfect. But at least I can take a verse with the word "taken" for example -if I take it back to the Greek we come up with multiple Greek words for just that one word. And with multiple meanings as they are being utilized in certain verses. I don't think the new versions can do that. But correct me if that's the case. But I believe given the context in verse 11 the word ἐντολή entole is correct one.

Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

Is that not a commandment to us? I believe so.

It could be. I think the “filthy” analogy backs up the “clean robes” but at the end of the day the message is not distorted.

I know we will most likely not change each other's minds at this point...

That’s up to you.

 

[BobRyan]

You failed to understand that Ezek 28 is not speaking about the devil. It's actually about Lucifer,

they are the same person. Lucifer fell and then was called the devil.

who was not created as a devil, but became "the Devil" or Satan, after He rebelled against God and sinned.

Yep , Lucifer was created sinless but then became , Satan, the devil, the serpent of old.

It would really help your cause if you did a bit of a study to understand the surrounding context of the scriptures, you refer to. It's not profitable to just pluck them out

Well so far you are stuck on an island where Lucifer did not fall and become the devil. The rest of us are not taken up with that suggestion.

Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28, which describe a proud Cherub cast down from heaven, and Luke 10:18 where Jesus says, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven