Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

[BobRyan]

This verse seems to back up your theory, however, only if you define apollumi as destroy completely

I define it as we see in Jude 1 and 2 Peter 2, destroy as in "reduce to ashes"

rather than ruined or lost which are all correct definitions. For example, apollumi is used to describe the condition of wine skins

hell is never compared to wine skins

“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

bible.com

said of the devil not said of humans
only to find that same devil "turned to ashes" on Earth and then it is said 'you will cease to be"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What is currently called Calvinism didn't start with Calvin.

Probably not, but whomever is the main influence on Dan's (the OP) pastor's theology, even if it's Augustine or Bucer, that is the set of ideas I'm signifying here by citing "Calvin."

I have a problem when fellow Christians try to tell me that unless I 'believe' their specific version of 'Hell,' then I'm in danger of Eternal Hellfire.

It's rather ridiculous and it just gets old real fast.

 

[Hentenza]

I define it as we see in Jude 1 and 2 Peter 2, destroy as in "reduce to ashes"

So you define appollumi only to what fits your belief purposely ignoring other possible definitions. So much for exegesis.

hell is never compared to wine skins

But apollumi is and that was the argument so this is a straw man.

said of the devil not said of humans
only to find that same devil "turned to ashes" on Earth and then it is said 'you will cease to be"

The humans are going in the same identical place for the same identical reasons, they are the wicked. You are missing the obvious. Again, so much for exegesis.

 

[Hentenza]

We are talking about God's consuming fire that can destroy both body and soul. And I choose to believe Christ's words in that we are to fear the one that can destroy (fully in the Greek) both body and soul. That's why Christ calls it the "second" death. Afterwards he claims to make "all things" new and that the former things will be passed away.

Actually appolumi does not only mean destroy, it can also mean ruin. But you are going to believe what you want regardless.


“And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

bible.com

And He certainly is but not according to your interpretation because look at what remains outside of the gates of the new Jerusalem.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th | New American Standard Bible

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th

bible.com

If we take your interpretation then Jesus misspoke because the wicked remain outside of the gates. What do you think is outside of the gates of new Jerusalem?

 

[JulieB67]

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

We are still talking in the future tense here. We have to remember this revelation is being revealed to us. Judgement Day has not arrived and the new heaven and earth are not in place as of yet. So he is just reiterating these two facts. And we see what happens to the former at Judgement Day. They are thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second "death". It's not life in any way shape or form. You talk about Jesus misspeaking. Did he here? When he calls it the second "death"? I mean, at this point, why even insert the word death all throughout the bible if it doesn't mean just that? And this most importantly is called the "second" death. Which certainly points to it being final and coinciding with Matthew 10:28.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

We have to continue to take the bible as a whole. When we do, it's always been life or death.

Actually appolumi does not only mean destroy

In the context it is given as destroying both body and soul, the definition is clear. As are all of the other verses that pair it with life. It's not life or ruination in hell. You are inserting that both have eternal life in all of these verses and that's not the case and that's not what's written.

Hey, I was taught the same as you've been taught but upon study, it's not there when we take the bible as a whole. And it's also not in the nature of God, who doesn't even want anyone to die. And when we know this fact, we can reasonably know he's not going to burn someone for an eternity. He's going to destroy them in the Lake of Fire and then go on with the new heaven and earth.

 

[Hentenza]

We are still talking in the future tense here. We have to remember this revelation is being revealed to us. Judgement Day has not arrived and the new heaven and earth are not in place as of yet. So he is just reiterating these two facts. And we see what happens to the former at Judgement Day.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

All of the book of revelation is in the future. I’m not sure what you are saying here but I you used the book of revelation to attempt to prove your point but when I use it you object?

Also, what bible translation are you using?

Rev. 22:14 reads in Greek: μακάριοι οἱ πλύνοντες τὰς στολὰςαὐτῶν ἵνα ἔσται ἡ ἐξουσία αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλοντῆς ζωῆς καὶ τοῖς πυλῶσιν εἰσέλθωσιν εἰς τὴνπόλιν

In English it should read: Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates.

The word commandment does not appear in the Greek.

We have to continue to take the bible as a whole. When we do, it's always been life or death.

I was trying but apparently only you can lol

In the context it is given as destroying both body and soul, the definition is clear. As are all of the other verses that pair it with life. It's not life or ruination in hell. You are inserting that both have eternal life in all of these verses and that's not the case and that's not what's written.

What context? You can’t cite context when you are not recognizing other definitions and interpretations. Is called exegesis.

Hey, I was taught the same as you've been taught but upon study, it's not there when we take the bible as a whole. And it's also not in the nature of God, who doesn't even want anyone to die. And when we know this fact, we can reasonably know he's not going to burn someone for an eternity. He's going to destroy them in the Lake of Fire and then go on with the new heaven and earth.

Then you drank the kool aid because to sin against an infinite being requires an infinite punishment. The good news is that for those that believe in Christ redemptive sacrifice they have been justified and the punishment mitigated.

 

[Lukaris]

Matthew 25:31-46 tells it all that there is an everlasting punishment for the unsaved ( KJV, NKJV) in verse 46.


46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



While a Christian should know salvation by grace by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10),at least pray for evangelism ( Matthew 9:36-38) & pray for all ( Timothy 2:1-6). The commandments guide us in this ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 19:16-19 etc.).

We should have hope for others in our prayers ( 1 Corinthians 13:12-13, per 1 Corinthians 13:1-13). There are those the Lord knows & we do not ( Psalm 15:1-5, Ezekiel 18:4-9, Romans 2:1-16).

 

[SarahsKnight]

God is not a torturing monster ... to think so is ridiculous

Hell is the grave .... Jesus Himself ... and many other places in the bible describes death as a dormant sleep (1st death) why? Because one day ALL will be resurrected (woken from their sleep)

Christian theology holds that Jesus's divine nature is what enabled him to survive death and be resurrected, but it was his human nature that experienced death. His death was a sacrifice made possible by his dual nature, and his resurrection was due to the power of God.

It's about eternal life (living with God forever-eternal existence) or eternal death (eternal non(existence)

We are not to be confused about death ... the 1st death is temporary ... the 2nd death is final for eternity.

It's the simple and straightforward reading of most verses in Scripture that speak on life, death, and the ultimate fate of believers and non-believers. Yet for some insane reason, Dan1988 over here keeps ranting that folks like you and I who take this simple and straightforward approach are practicing witchcraft, trying to know the mind of God, and following a "doctrine of demons". *rolls eyes* It's impossible arguing with him.

 

[BobRyan]

So you define appollumi only to what fits your belief

False. I pay attention to context and in Matt 10:28 we see the same context as in 2 Peter 2 and in Jude 1, eternal judgment of the wicked.

not "wine skins"

your objection only has a little life in it as long as you avoid the details in the texts I am quoting.

Fine you have free will and can choose whatever you wish.

But I find objective unbiased readers very interested in the details , the context and the meaning that we see blatantly stated in Matt 10:28 just as we see the same topic addressed in 2 Peter 2 and in Jude 1, eternal judgment of the wicked.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 25:31-46 tells it all that there is an everlasting punishment for the unsaved ( KJV, NKJV) in verse 46.

There are those the Lord knows & we do not ( Psalm 15:1-5, Ezekiel 18:4-9, Romans 2:1-16).

Your Ezek 18:4 text above says 'the souls that sins shall die' instead of "the soul that sins shall live forever in eternal torment"

In fact in Ezek 18 all the wicked die, and all the righteous live. This is only true in the context of the second death of Rev 20 where only the wicked die.

 

[BobRyan]

The traditional view, known as Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT), holds that the wicked are punished eternally in hell, supported by verses like Matthew 25:46

That is a great phrase to search for in your Bible "Eternal conscious torment"

 

[Hentenza]

False. I pay attention to context and in Matt 10:28 we see the same context as in 2 Peter 2 and in Jude 1, eternal judgment of the wicked.

You did not. As long as you continue to deny apollumi as having other possible definitions and as long as you deny the plain reading of both Jude and 2 Peter 2 you have no context.

not "wine skins"

Is not about wine skins is about the definition of apollumi. Here you can see one of the other definitions that you deny exists.

your objection only has a little life in it as long as you avoid the details in the texts I am quoting.

Fine you have free will and can choose whatever you wish.

But I find objective unbiased readers very interested in the details , the context and the meaning that we see blatantly stated in Matt 10:28 we see the same context as in 2 Peter 2 and in Jude 1, eternal judgment of the wicked.

Unbiased readers? Really? I’m not the one denying definitions. You are just mad because your “simple” read is not as simple as you thought.

 

[BobRyan]

The bible never ever describes death as "cessation of existence",

Ezek 28:

15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

========================

Malachi 4:
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

if your view was correct, then mankind doesn't actually exist

I find your logic illusive just then

and this life is an illusion.

But we know that we do exist, so your view is based on false doctrine.

According to God everyone s already dead, so what is death. If we are born dead in sin, then death is not the (cessation of existence) death you believe in. To the contrary, the bible confirms that sinners are born (spiritually dead) and then they die a second (spiritual death) which is their eternal state. They remain in their spiritually dead state for all eternity, but they are fully conscious and they feel pain just as much as thy do now.

So, we need to find out what the Biblical description of death is, before we can draw to any conclusion on the matter. From what I see, your view is not supported by any scripture. Satan is a Spiritual being, He is not made of flesh and bone so the description of His burning up to ashes on the earth must be referring to His power as the Prince of this world. He is stripped of all His power and He will never be reinstated as the Prince of this world.

The Bible is clear that on that day (when we step into eternity), everyone will be resurrected and reunited their own bodies. Those who died in their sin will remain in that state forever, but those who were saved will receive a glorified body and we will be perfect and sinless like Christ Himself.

"cease to be forever"
"wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life"
destroyed as in "by reducing them to ashes" 2 Peter 2

No doubt the second death of Rev 20 does involve a great deal of suffering and torment but it ends just as Ezek 28 states even for the devil himself

 

[BobRyan]

You did not. As long as you continue to deny apollumi as having other possible definitions

false.

I repeatedly argue that it has meaning depending on context,

Both Hebrew and Greek are high context languages, unlike English

 

[BobRyan]

indeed, instead of that we see verses all speaking of eternal fire and we take them all as dealing with the subject we are studying.

Instead of merely ignoring whatever does not suit our preference.

This is the easy part.

Jude is also dealing with that same feature of the those who are not saved.

LOST/wicked PERSONS:

Jude 1

4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

you really don't have much wiggle room there. The author makes the very connections that your preferences do not tolerate


Looks like it is the same great day of judgment that Jude speaks of.

Impossible to miss.

Jude 1:6 for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah

Ezek 28 Satan destroyed and reduced to 'ashes on the Earth" as stated explicitly in Ezek 28.

The wicked destroyed as "ashes under your feet"

Mal 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

2 Pet 2:
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

as long as you deny the plain reading of both Jude and 2 Peter 2 you have no context.

I find your logic illusive since I am appealing to full context of the details in those very texts as we can all see above, your argument relies and avoiding the details as stated in the very texts where apollumi is being used in the examples above

 

[Hentenza]

false.

Nope.

I repeatedly argue that it has meaning depending on context,

Your “context” ignores language.

Both Hebrew and Greek are high context languages, unlike English

Which you are not using. If you want to discuss apollumi in Greek then go right ahead.

BTW- all language is high context because context relates to a body of work and the author’s intended meaning. It’s about the elements of hermeneutics.

 

[BobRyan]

Which you are not using. If you want to discuss apollumi in Greek then go right ahead.

BTW- all language is high context because context relates to a body of work and the author’s intended meaning. It’s about the elements of hermeneutics.

meaning is determined by context in English and even more so in Hebrew and Greek.

Meanings of apollumi

• To destroy completely: This is the core meaning, implying total ruin or demise, both literally and figuratively.
  

• To ruin or abolish: It can mean to render useless or abolish something entirely.
  

• To lose: The word is also used to describe something being lost, such as a lost sheep.

• To kill: In a literal sense, it can mean to kill or put to death.
  
  

 

[Hentenza]

meaning is determined by context in English and even more so in Hebrew and Greek.

Meanings of apollumi

• To destroy completely: This is the core meaning, implying total ruin or demise, both literally and figuratively.
• To ruin or abolish: It can mean to render useless or abolish something entirely.
• To lose: The word is also used to describe something being lost, such as a lost sheep.
• To kill: In a literal sense, it can mean to kill or put to death.
  

Great. Glad you finally see it. Now what?

Btw- there is no “core” meaning. Just different meanings.

 

[Lukaris]

Your Ezek 18:4 text above says 'the souls that sins shall die' instead of "the soul that sins shall live forever in eternal torment"

In fact in Ezek 18 all the wicked die, and all the righteous live. This is only true in the context of the second death of Rev 20 where only the wicked die.

In light of the final judgment and resurrection is how I understand what Ezekiel said as fulfilled. A similar observation can be made between Daniel 12:1-4 and John 5:22-30. Daniel understands a universal resurrection to everlasting life or contempt in a partial way. In John 5, the Lord gives us a basic, full explanation of the resurrection of the good and evil. In all of this, the Lord’s judgment is consistent and that is what we need to be aware of.

Look at the Sadducees, who didn’t even believe in a resurrection ( although I have heard it said that it can’t be proven they denied an afterlife just the resurrection). Anyway, God is of the living not the dead. It seems that death only truly exists for us to depart our earthly life ( see Matthew 22:23-33).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Probably not, but whomever is the main influence on Dan's (the OP) pastor's theology, even if it's Augustine or Bucer, that is the set of ideas I'm signifying here by citing "Calvin."

I have a problem when fellow Christians try to tell me that unless I 'believe' their specific version of 'Hell,' then I'm in danger of Eternal Hellfire.

It's rather ridiculous and it just gets old real fast.

Well, I don't know who tells you that. I don't. And the Calvinists I know don't. Nor the Reformed.