MARK OF THE BEAST - REVELATION 13-14; 17; 18

[Marilyn C]

You're smothering the question with other theology. Good points - as far as I can tell.

But not answering the main question I ask futurists.

Are you a futurist still? Maybe I'm speaking at cross purposes.

How has the majority of this book been relevant to the church if it's mainly about the last generation that will ever live?

John's friends in Asia Minor were being fed to lions, and futurists would pretend he says "You think that's bad - wait till you see what's coming in 2000 years!"

Ok eclipsenow,

So if John`s friends in Asia Minor were being fed to the lions (I agree) then most of what is written in Rev. 2 & 3 does not apply to them. And then also it does not all apply to us unless you see the remnants of those church`s conditions around today.

I see Rev. 4 as future and thus the judgments of the Lord future as to judging the world system - Politically, Economically and Religiously.

And I don`t know about `smothering` but revealing what the Lord is doing. That is the great encouragement for ALL centuries of believers - past, present and future.

 

[contratodo]

Unfortunately that requires a nonexistent cosmology as well As imaginary space men in equally imaginary flying saucers

If you believe the earth is a ball spinning in outer space among billions of other planets, I don't see how you can not believe in some life in one of those other planets. It makes sense if one believes the foundational lies.

The idea that spacemen and flying saucers are real is the blaspheme the beast will be speaking.

I hope you see what I am saying, the blaspheme that the beast will say, is related to the stars, related to what is outside of the sky, that is what the Bible says Daniel 8:10-12 Revelation 13:6 and therefore the idea that we are on a spinning ball surrounded by other planets is part of the beasts blaspheme, cleverly crept in by his agents and men in the office of the beast. When the day comes, and it is soon to come, that the mainstream starts giving fearful info about supposed sm&fs, those believing the foundational lies, would have a hard time not being further deceived.

El diablo es un mentiroso. Extraterrstres son la mentira del diablo. The devil is a liar, aliens are the devil's lie.

 

[contratodo]

Just as one must learn ancient Greek in inner theological school, to understand revelation one has to understand how the ancient world used these apocalyptic symbols, which requires reading some of the other apocalyptic symbolism of the time.

I did four years of Greek in Bible college. The text is clear, the beast will speak blaspheme about those in heaven. Those outside of the sky.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Seems to me like there is so many versions of bible Prophecy as their are Christian religions. So how are we to know who is right and who is wrong?

I am kind of amazed that there is zero curiosity about the fact that from the first year of the times of the gentiles, when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judea until Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD is 666 years. I mean that is what that part of Revelation is about. The times or age of the four gentile empires. Why would it not be relevant then? Why every crazy interpretation that can possibly be imagined other than the one that is relevant to the subject matter? 597 BC - 70 AD by the way. There is no year zero making it 666 years.

 

[Barraco]

Hello all this is a thread for sharing scriptures on MARK OF THE BEAST.

WHAT IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST CLICK ME?

There is a simple study from God's WORD * DANIEL AND REVELATION and history here beastsmark.com for those who may be interested in the scriptures and some more detail.

God's WORD teaches that GOD'S PEOPLE ARE IN EVERY CHURCH! Theye are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD as much as God has revealed to them. *JOHN 10:16; ACT 17:30-31.

I would like to discuss the following scriptures here in this OP.

REVELATION 14:6-12
[6], And I saw another angel fly in midheaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,
[7], Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment has come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
[8], And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
[9], And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10], The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11], And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.
[12], Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

...............

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION (linked to scripture studies in this thread)

Q1. WHAT IS THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL? v6 linked
Q2. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO FEAR GOD? v7 linked
Q3. HOW DO WE GIVE GLORY TO GOD? v7 linked
Q4. WHAT IS THE JUDGMENT ABOUT? v7 linked
Q5. WHO DOES BABYLON THE HARLOT WOMAN REPRESENT? v8; 17:1-5; 18:1-9
Q6. THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS OVER WHORSHIP v8-12
Q7. WHO IS GOD’S TRUE CHURCH IN GOD’S WORD? v12
Q8. WHAT DOES A BEAST OF KINGDOM REPRESENT IN DANIAL AND REVELATIONS?
Q9 WHAT ARE THE SYMBOLS AND MEANING OF MARK, SIGN AND SEAL?
Q10. WHAT IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND WHEN DO PEOPLE RECEIVE IT?
Q11. THE SEAL OF GOD HOW DO WE GET IT?
Q12. DID YOU KNOW THAT THE CIVIL SUNDAY LAWS HAVE ALREADY PASSED?
Q13. WHO IS THE ANTICHRIST, THE MAN OF SIN, THE BEAST AND 666?
Q14. WHO DID THE EARLY REFORMERS BELIEVE THE ANTICHRIST WAS? 1/2
Q15. WHO DID THE EARLY REFORMERS BELIEVE THE ANTICHRIST WAS? 2/2

QUESTIONS TO THINK ABOUT

...............

FRIENDLY CHRISTIAN DISCUSSION AND SCRIPTURE ONLY PLEASE.

God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

I'm a little late to this discussion. Sorry about that. Happy Advent though!

A1. The everlasting gospel is mentioned in Revelation 1:5-6 (NASB1995). "And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen."

A2. To Fear God means to respect His name and power, not confusing His compassion for weakness.

A3. We give glory to God by doing what the woman's offspring does in Revelation 12:17, "Who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

A4. The judgment is about exposing and purging sin from the holy presence of God. God's desire is to dwell among His people.

A5. Babylon is best understood using the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. She is the unrepentant in the Church that seek to love both God and the world. Within her gates are the "dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Revelation 22:15) She is the result of not heeding the messages to the seven churches. Instead of keeping the commandments of God, she runs after the things of this world (Ephesus). Instead of being faithful to the point of death (Smyrna), she cowers in fear because she loves this life more than God. Instead of keeping pure doctrine, she mingles with nationalist teachings so she can keep her worldly influence (Pergamum). Instead of trusting in God as her King, she runs after her other lovers, the kings of the earth that submit to Satan. You get the idea.

A6-A7. See A5.

A8. The kingdom of the beast in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are the kingdoms of the world. 1+2+3+4=10. Therefore the ten horns represent global authority. These are the ones Babylon runs after.

A9. See A3. A mark on the forehead represents a testimony while a mark on the right hand represents deeds.

A10. The mark of the beast is the antithesis of keeping God's commandments and bearing testimony of Jesus. Believers who don't heed the seven messages will take the mark of the beast after the worldly messiah, the false messiah that seeks power over the kingdoms of this world (the four beasts/ten horns), presents himself as the world's savior, using miraculous signs to deceive people who love lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation 13).

A11. We get the seal of God by heeding the messages to the seven stars and loving Jesus more than anything this world can offer.

A12. Jesus is Lord of all the days of the week. He is our the rest, the second Adam, the new creation. If we make anything about us, we stop following Jesus. He went to the cross. No servant is above his master, so we go to the cross as well. If we aren't willing to follow Jesus to the cross, what good does it do to debate whether one day is holier than another? We stand convicted as hypocrites.

A13. The beast, the antichrist and son of perdition, is the ruler of the kingdoms of this world. 666 is the gematria calculation of the false messiah (656) that rules over the kingdoms of this world (10). The transliteration of the Hebrew word for mashiach (messiah) into Greek language is messias. M(40)+E(5)+S(200)+S(200)+I(10)+A(1)+S(200)=656. The kingdoms of this world, as explained in A8 are the four beasts added together: 1+2+3+4=10. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” (John 18:36) The false messiah is the one that fails to the temptations Jesus endured in the wilderness. He gives everything up for worldly power. That is how Satan gives the beast is authority and dominion. At the time the Apocalypse was received by John, the beast was Caesar.

A14-A15. The Papacy. Homey don't play that. Babylon is everywhere. She is sitting next to Zion in the pews at every church this Advent morning. The only way to tell the difference is by her fruit. She lives for this world and not the kingdom to come. The wheat and tares will both be harvested at the end of the age.

 

[eclipsenow]

I did four years of Greek in Bible college. The text is clear, the beast will speak blaspheme about those in heaven. Those outside of the sky.

OK - you've got one up on me on the Greek.

But I'm not talking about myself.

I'm talking about those who have read the other Apocalyptic Symbolism of the day, from 200 BC to 200 AD, and understand the rules.

Did you study them?

 

[eclipsenow]

A8. The kingdom of the beast in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are the kingdoms of the world. 1+2+3+4=10. Therefore the ten horns represent global authority. These are the ones Babylon runs after.

I thought the number 10 itself signified completeness - where 7 represents God's perfection.

A9. See A3. A mark on the forehead represents a testimony while a mark on the right hand represents deeds.

Interesting. Have you seen the Bible Project on this? he has a Phd in Hebrew Apocalyptic Symbolism.
He basically thinks it's the Shema prayer - but a worldly version.
The image seems to be of someone so trusting in the power of the state and wealth they are almost "praying" to the authorities of this world for their security!

It's obviously an image - because there's a Christian image of the Christian martyrs having a WHITE stone on their foreheads in heaven in the very next chapter. Apocalyptic Symbolism does a lot of 'compare and contrast' to draw out the nuances and sometimes starker comparisons.

A10. The mark of the beast is the antithesis of keeping God's commandments and bearing testimony of Jesus. Believers who don't heed the seven messages will take the mark of the beast after the worldly messiah, the false messiah that seeks power over the kingdoms of this world (the four beasts/ten horns), presents himself as the world's savior, using miraculous signs to deceive people who love lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation 13).

Yes! As certain Caesars did, and Mohammad, and Hitler and Stalin and North Korea.
It's not about predicting one future anti-Christ - but a symbolic sermon on suffering to Christians in ANY age that might face one.

(Revelation has a bunch of warnings. EG: Against the temptation us in the rich western democracies might have - to worship Babylon in all her wealth - and trust in her for security!)

A11. We get the seal of God by heeding the messages to the seven stars and loving Jesus more than anything this world can offer.

Exactly! In any age.

A12. Jesus is Lord of all the days of the week. He is our the rest, the second Adam, the new creation. If we make anything about us, we stop following Jesus. He went to the cross. No servant is above his master, so we go to the cross as well. If we aren't willing to follow Jesus to the cross, what good does it do to debate whether one day is holier than another? We stand convicted as hypocrites.

A13. The beast, the antichrist and son of perdition, is the ruler of the kingdoms of this world. 666 is the gematria calculation of the false messiah (656) that rules over the kingdoms of this world (10). The transliteration of the Hebrew word for mashiach (messiah) into Greek language is messias. M(40)+E(5)+S(200)+S(200)+I(10)+A(1)+S(200)=656. The kingdoms of this world, as explained in A8 are the four beasts added together: 1+2+3+4=10. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” (John 18:36) The false messiah is the one that fails to the temptations Jesus endured in the wilderness. He gives everything up for worldly power. That is how Satan gives the beast is authority and dominion. At the time the Apocalypse was received by John, the beast was Caesar.

Exactly.

A14-A15. The Papacy. Homey don't play that. Babylon is everywhere. She is sitting next to Zion in the pews at every church this Advent morning. The only way to tell the difference is by her fruit. She lives for this world and not the kingdom to come. The wheat and tares will both be harvested at the end of the age.

I don't know I would say Babylon sits in the pew with us - but more that potential followers of Babylon do.
Which is the scary message of Revelation.
We've got to keep checking our own hearts for this stuff!

But so many turn Revelation into a B-Grade Sci-Fi movie - and spend all their time trying to calculate the end times tables. They've seen "The Omen" or "Numbers" or some other Hollywood lie that says Revelation has a secret coded message for the last generation. (Which of course would make it utterly irrelevant to the church for the last 2000 years!)

Then when their precious end-times-tables inevitably fail with the passage of time, how many people who trusted in these self-proclaimed "prophets" just fall away as Christianity to them has lost all credibility?

 

[Barraco]

I thought the number 10 itself signified completeness - where 7 represents God's perfection.

The symbolism could still be relevant, but I don't think it's driving this particular interpretation. Daniel 2 shows us that the ten toes would try to cleave to one another but would ultimately fail. That is nationalism in a nutshell.

Interesting. Have you seen the Bible Project on this? he has a Phd in Hebrew Apocalyptic Symbolism.
He basically thinks it's the Shema prayer - but a worldly version.
The image seems to be of someone so trusting in the power of the state and wealth they are almost "praying" to the authorities of this world for their security!

I have not seen it. In John's time, the image was an image of Caesar that would be placed within a tribune to prove allegiance to Rome and its gods. This was showcased to its zenith during the Diocletian Persecution. Asia Minor's culture leaned heavily into imperial cult, regardless of who ruled over them. That made its persecutions so much more devastating than those in Europe at that time. Crossing the contextual bridge, the torch passed easily to Soviet Russia, which began persecuting Christians and spreading Stalin's cult of personality after the Bolshevik Revolution.

It's obviously an image - because there's a Christian image of the Christian martyrs having a WHITE stone on their foreheads in heaven in the very next chapter. Apocalyptic Symbolism does a lot of 'compare and contrast' to draw out the nuances and sometimes starker comparisons.

The two criteria all seven churches were evaluated by, and a repetitive theme in Revelation, is bearing a faithful witness of Jesus to the world by keeping His testimony (forehead) and obeying God's commands (right hand). Deuteronomy 6 drives this home.

An interesting observation is that every nation will turn against Christ at some point. Notice the formula:

1. The four horsemen wreak havoc on a kingdom
2. The people blame and persecute saints and prophets
3. People fill up their wickedness until God's wrath comes upon them
4. God gives that kingdom to people bearing "fruit" (deeds) for His kingdom

 

[eclipsenow]

The symbolism could still be relevant, but I don't think it's driving this particular interpretation. Daniel 2 shows us that the ten toes would try to cleave to one another but would ultimately fail. That is nationalism in a nutshell.

Is there something in the text here that references Daniel 2? I'm more interested in how John merges bits of the other beasts into one uber-beast. It's saying Rome is more powerful than all the previous empires. But it's also very universal in appeal - as in - this is Rome - but it could be any government that threatens God's people.

I have not seen it.

You sound like a reasonable person committed to reading God's word in context, and with reference to sensible theology. (And not just playing subjective "pin-the-tail-on-the-anti-Christ" like others here.)

Please consider putting the Bible Project on your list of resources for a quick overview of any book of the bible. It's like having a shorter audio-visual pamphlet on your bookshelf.

Try Revelation for starters.
First half:

Second half: including Rev 13 and the mark of the beast

In John's time, the image was an image of Caesar that would be placed within a tribune to prove allegiance to Rome and its gods.

Absolutely. Wasn't there a new tribune installed at some point, and people required to turn up and swear allegiance?

This was showcased to its zenith during the Diocletian Persecution. Asia Minor's culture leaned heavily into imperial cult, regardless of who ruled over them. That made its persecutions so much more devastating than those in Europe at that time. Crossing the contextual bridge, the torch passed easily to Soviet Russia, which began persecuting Christians and spreading Stalin's cult of personality after the Bolshevik Revolution.

Across 2000 years? I'm not sure causation is demonstrated - but history certainly rhymes now and then.

The two criteria all seven churches were evaluated by, and a repetitive theme in Revelation, is bearing a faithful witness of Jesus to the world by keeping His testimony (forehead) and obeying God's commands (right hand). Deuteronomy 6 drives this home.

Check part 2 of Revelation above for the forehead and right hand.

An interesting observation is that every nation will turn against Christ at some point. Notice the formula:

1. The four horsemen wreak havoc on a kingdom
2. The people blame and persecute saints and prophets
3. People fill up their wickedness until God's wrath comes upon them
4. God gives that kingdom to people bearing "fruit" (deeds) for His kingdom

Hmmm - I'm not sure I've seen that as a pattern. The people I read seem to see Revelation as covering a multitude of themes, not necessarily linked in that way? Could you just add the chapters where you see this pattern emerging?

Cheers, good chatting with you

 

[Barraco]

Is there something in the text here that references Daniel 2? I'm more interested in how John merges bits of the other beasts into one uber-beast. It's saying Rome is more powerful than all the previous empires. But it's also very universal in appeal - as in - this is Rome - but it could be any government that threatens God's people.

The ten horns are the ten toes. The connection between Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 is explicit. Revelation 13 references it directly. Daniel 7 shows that the ten horns would come after the fourth beast. The fourth beast was the Roman Republic (W). It became the Roman Empire when it conquered Egypt (S), Anatolia (N), and Syria (E). In this way, the ten horns are an empire stretching over the entire world.

You sound like a reasonable person committed to reading God's word in context, and with reference to sensible theology. (And not just playing subjective "pin-the-tail-on-the-anti-Christ" like others here.)

I appreciate that! I'd rather not look outside the context of the original audience. Unfortunately, silence is rare in my life. If I can read it instead of watching it, it would be easier to flex to those rare moments.

Absolutely. Wasn't there a new tribune installed at some point, and people required to turn up and swear allegiance?

There was. It began in 250 with the Decian Persecution, but it wasn't specifically targeted at Christians like the Diocletian Persecution was in 303. Speaking of the Diocletian Persecution, it should have been called the Galerian Persecution because Galerius was the main antagonist. Diocletian set up a tetrarchy in attempt to stabilize the Roman Empire after the Crises of the Third Century. The Roman Empire was split into East and West, with each having its own Augustus and its own Caesar. The Eastern Empire, with its capital in the Pontic city of Nicomedia, leaned heavily into the imperial cult as a means to restore Roman esprit de corps. Like the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, the Christians were blamed for the prior crises and were persecuted. The Oracle of Apollo at Didyma told Diocletian that she could not give oracles from Apollo because "the just upon the earth" hindered his prophecies. Galerius insisted persecuting the Christians would enable the oracle to hear Apollos prophecies again. Since imperial cult was so strong in Anatolia, the Eastern Empire was ground zero for Roman Tribune. The Eastern Empire was, as Revelation 13 called it, the beast from the earth. To your original question, the tribune was the image of the beast having a statue of Diocletian presented before the herald.

Across 2000 years? I'm not sure causation is demonstrated - but history certainly rhymes now and then.

This lends itself to the pattern.

Hmmm - I'm not sure I've seen that as a pattern. The people I read seem to see Revelation as covering a multitude of themes, not necessarily linked in that way? Could you just add the chapters where you see this pattern emerging?

This is probably the best conversation I have had on this topic. Thanks!

All themes are encompassed in Revelation 1 and 22. These are the inclusio, a parenthetical bracket around all the text within. Revelation 1:6 shows us who the Two Witnesses are. Like Joshua the High Priest and Zerubabbel the governor in Zechariah 4, Christ's blood has made us to be priests and a kingdom. They were called out of Babylon (Zech 2:6, Rev 18:4), the worldly attempt to serve two masters. By keeping the testimony of Jesus and obeying His commands (Rev 1:2, Rev 12:17), they build the Church under constant peril by the enemy, just like when the Edomites assaulted the Jews when they rebuilt Jerusalem's wall in the days of Nehemiah. The lamp stands, fueled by God's Spirit (Rev 1:10, 4:5), continue that mission until Christ returns and every eye sees Him (Rev 1:7, Rev 19:11-18). You can find these themes repeated multiple times throughout Revelation. I think they get missed often because of the mysteries presented in the book that are intended to get the believers to look introspectively and ask themselves who they most identify with. That revelation shows us which message to seven churches in Asia Minor we as a universal church must adhere to. I would definitely like to discuss this further.

Cheers, good chatting with you

Likewise!