Porneia, sexual immorality and romantic love, committed love in marriage.

[GoldenKingGaze]

For century after century porneia in the new testament was translated as sexual immorality. But in the 20th century, romantic poetry and arts leaned towards porneia being love. Romatic love, unrequited love, love at first sight, free love. People moved by lust commit adultery and can't deny their feelings and falll in love with the other woman and leave the wife for the lover. There are stories true and fiction of men falling in love with their prostitute. A lover can be, or become first love. Ladies can be in love with their first love, lover for the rest of their life, despite getting married and having children with the second love.

Is it as simple as saying porneia is sexual immorality?

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

For century after century porneia in the new testament was translated as sexual immorality. But in the 20th century, romantic poetry and arts leaned towards porneia being love. Romatic love, unrequited love, love at first sight, free love. People moved by lust commit adultery and can't deny their feelings and falll in love with the other woman and leave the wife for the lover. There are stories true and fiction of men falling in love with their prostitute. A lover can be, or become first love. Ladies can be in love with their first love, lover for the rest of their life, despite getting married and having children with the second love.

Is it simple as saying porneia is sexual immorality?

It's helpful to first understand the original and the usage of the Greek word before assessing its meaning and proper translation in the NT.

Literally the word relates to prostitution (selling or buying sex); its usage widened in secular Greek literature already to any kind of extramarital or illicit sexual intercourse.

In the Greek LXX/70 translation of the Hebrew TNK/OT the word is used in the meaning of that initial Greek usage (sexual sins / sexual immorality) but also a lot in the sense of idolatry/unfaithfulness to God.

The NT virtually exclusively also uses the word in that literal sense of illicit sexual acts - for the definition of that the reference framework of the Apostles was Mosaic Law / Torah (Acts 15). All throughout Paul's letters he seems to assume those laws on marriage/sexuality apply to Gentile believers as well.

So to answer your question; yes ... but be careful then to also lookup the correction definition/description of what that entails (in TNK/OT). Some aspects/instances of sexual immorality became more outspoken/explicit in NT times. E.g. in TNK/OT sex is simply assumed to happen within marriage, but there is no literal ban with a death penalty for that outside marriage (only in the case of adultery) - when it happened the man was obliged to offer marriage to the woman, but in the NT this is more explicitly viewed as improper.

Adultery is a sub-form/type of sexual immorality.

Yeshua adds another dimension to all this. In the Sermon on the Mount He describes how improper thoughts/heart-action precedes actual physical sin. E.g. calling someone a fool can be the precursor to murder, and looking at someone else's wife with strong desire is the precursor to adultery .. So in that sense He calls just that look/heart-intent already adultery in the heart - already that is sinful, although still distinct from actual physical adultery of course.

 

[Michie]

AI overview:

Porneia

is a Greek word that translates to "sexual immorality" or "fornication" and refers to any form of illicit sexual activity. It is a broad term that can encompass prostitution, adultery, incest, and other forms of sexual misconduct or "sexual sin of any kind". The English word "pornography" is derived from this Greek term.

Specific meanings and uses of porneia

• General sexual immorality: It is a broad term for sexual relations outside of marriage.
• Prostitution: The word is related to the Greek porne, meaning "prostitute" or "harlot," and porneia can refer to prostitution or harlotry.
• Adultery: In some biblical passages, porneia is used to describe adultery, which is sexual intercourse with someone else's spouse.
• Incest: The New Testament uses porneia to describe an incestuous relationship in 1 Corinthians 5:1.
• Other sexual sin: It can also be used as a catch-all term for any sexual transgression, including fornication (premarital sex) and lewdness.

 

[peaceful-forest]

I haven't heard of porneia being used as romantic love.

I find it strange. It makes me wonder if this is a new tactic from Satan to blur the lines between love and sexual immorality?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It is not so new, things developed in the 20th century. Look at the arts. The sexual revolution, the Hippies, Cole Porter, Madonna...

 

[rebornfree]

I haven't heard of porneia being used as romantic love.

I find it strange. It makes me wonder if this is a new tactic from Satan to blur the lines between love and sexual immorality?

Totally agree. Are Jane Austen's novels porneia? I love Georgette Heyer's regency romances. No porneia in them other than a reference to some men being libertines but no detail given. Falling in love is not the same as lust.

 

[All Becomes New]

I'm in agreement with @Michie on this. Porneia is any kind of sexual immorality. That could be porn, or masturbation, or lust, or homosexuality, or adultery, or fornication. Anything that is not sex in the confines of a marriage between one man and one woman for one lifetime.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

I'm in agreement with @Michie on this. Porneia is any kind of sexual immorality. That could be porn, or masturbation, or lust, or homosexuality, or adultery, or fornication. Anything that is not sex in the confines of a marriage between one man and one woman for one lifetime.

Any interpretation regarding the meaning of a word in the NT should come from linguistic analysis/understanding (including word usage) - I am curious as to why you think masturbation by definition should be included as neither the TNK/OT or NT mention that AFAIK. No judgement, just curious .. (and I'm not talking about anything related to addiction/porn/immoral fantasies etc.) I'm aware early interpreters frequently refer to the history of Onan from Genesis 38 but that's an entirely different issue.

 

[All Becomes New]

Any interpretation regarding the meaning of a word in the NT should come from linguistic analysis/understanding (including word usage) - I am curious as to why you think masturbation by definition should be included as neither the TNK/OT or NT mention that AFAIK. No judgement, just curious .. (and I'm not talking about anything related to addiction/porn/immoral fantasies etc.) I'm aware early interpreters frequently refer to the history of Onan from Genesis 38 but that's an entirely different issue.

The Bible doesn't mention Trans people either.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I think of a documentary I watched about a sportsman who married a model and started a family. But he was tempted by a prostitute, who did for him things his wife would not. She fell pregnant but had an abortion. The affair went on and she had another conception but it died before birth, she wanted to have it. The sportsman left his wife for her. Can love come from porneia?

 

[joechristianwarrior]

I'm in agreement with @Michie on this. Porneia is any kind of sexual immorality. That could be porn, or masturbation, or lust, or homosexuality, or adultery, or fornication. Anything that is not sex in the confines of a marriage between one man and one woman for one lifetime.

Out of curiosity, how did you come to the conclusion that masturbation is a sin? The Bible is clear on lust being a sin, condemns homosexuality explicitly, ditto re adultery and fornication. But I've not read on a single page of the Bible condemnation of masturbation...

 

[All Becomes New]

Out of curiosity, how did you come to the conclusion that masturbation is a sin? The Bible is clear on lust being a sin, condemns homosexuality explicitly, ditto re adultery and fornication. But I've not read on a single page of the Bible condemnation of masturbation...

Can't really do it without lusting.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

AI overview:

Porneia

is a Greek word that translates to "sexual immorality" or "fornication" and refers to any form of illicit sexual activity. It is a broad term that can encompass prostitution, adultery, incest, and other forms of sexual misconduct or "sexual sin of any kind". The English word "pornography" is derived from this Greek term.

Specific meanings and uses of porneia

• General sexual immorality: It is a broad term for sexual relations outside of marriage.
• Prostitution: The word is related to the Greek porne, meaning "prostitute" or "harlot," and porneia can refer to prostitution or harlotry.
• Adultery: In some biblical passages, porneia is used to describe adultery, which is sexual intercourse with someone else's spouse.
• Incest: The New Testament uses porneia to describe an incestuous relationship in 1 Corinthians 5:1.
• Other sexual sin: It can also be used as a catch-all term for any sexual transgression, including fornication (premarital sex) and lewdness.

Can Porneia at any point be called love, unrequited love, love at first sight, and contain or lead to eros, and agape?

 

[All Becomes New]

Can Porneia at any point be called love, unrequited love, love at first sight, and contain or lead to eros, and agape?

This might be helpful to you. There are four different words for love in the NT. They all mean something different.

What Are the Four Greek Words for Love in the Bible?

In English-speaking cultures, we often say, “I love you.” In Greek, four words are used for love: agape, storge, phileo, and eros. What can we learn from the differences between each of these words?

www.christianity.com

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Out of curiosity, how did you come to the conclusion that masturbation is a sin? The Bible is clear on lust being a sin, condemns homosexuality explicitly, ditto re adultery and fornication. But I've not read on a single page of the Bible condemnation of masturbation...

I agree with your reservation regarding masturbation. Just be careful with the English word 'lust' - the Greek does not have a dedicated word for that; the underlying word usually translated to 'lust' in English just means strong desire, and is also used in a positive sense (use your concordance to look it up). It would be incorrect to stay that universally the NT calls 'strong desire' a sin; and e.g. 'strong desire' for your wife would be perfectly fine, just as the 'strong desire' to meet or speak to someone.

The same precaution is necessary with the popular 4-word Greek word scheme for love mentioned in this thread (eros, storge, philia, agape). It became popular as CS Lewis wrote about it in 1958 (The Four Loves). I'm a CS Lewis fan, but the framework is a bit oversimplified:

• eros and storge don't really show up in the NT
• philia and agape are used as synonyms in the NT
• agape does not exclusively represent divine love

Agape is still special in some ways; the LXX/70 TNK/OT translation used it to translate the Hebrew ahava (love) in its covenantal sense; 'agape' became the preferred word Christians used to express God's love But the popular filia/agape dichotomy with philia = warm affection and agape = selfless divine love is mostly a 20th century exaggeration.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

I think of a documentary I watched about a sportsman who married a model and started a family. But he was tempted by a prostitute, who did for him things his wife would not. She fell pregnant but had an abortion. The affair went on and she had another conception but it died before birth, she wanted to have it. The sportsman left his wife for her. Can love come from porneia?

Definitely - we have a very clear Biblical example: David with Bathsheba. Their relation started as clear-cut adultery with premeditated murder to get her husband out of the way. Yet afterwards God forgave David's sin (although the child conceived in sin died) and allowed their 2nd son to become King of Israel who wrote multiple TNK/OT books. Bathsheba remained a favoured/esteemed wife at the court.

Another example might be Hosea was was instructed to marry (and thus love her as a action) a prostitute - to illustrate God's love for His people while they engaged in idolatry.

PS: it is also something not to be sought intentionally obviously - the NT teaches us to flee 'porneia' as those who engage in it (unrepentantly) do not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[jonojim1337]

Yeah it would be very shameful for a citizen of Rome to behave in this manner.

 

[lismore]

Yeah it would be very shameful for a citizen of Rome to behave in this manner.

I think in Ancient Athens and Rome slave-women would be compelled, through threat of extreme violence, to act as prostitutes. 'Slaves obey your Masters' (Ephesians 6:5). Did slaves who had no choice sin in this regard? Kind Regards.

 

[jonojim1337]

I think in Ancient Athens and Rome slave-women would be compelled, through threat of extreme violence, to act as prostitutes. 'Slaves obey your Masters' (Ephesians 6:5). Did slaves who had no choice sin in this regard? Kind Regards.

I think that’s a dumb thought. But regardless it would be pretty shameful.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

I think in Ancient Athens and Rome slave-women would be compelled, through threat of extreme violence, to act as prostitutes. 'Slaves obey your Masters' (Ephesians 6:5). Did slaves who had no choice sin in this regard? Kind Regards.

Good point/question - this was common in both Greek and Roman society. Church Father Clement of Alexandria (+/- 190-200 AD) states a slave woman who is ordered by her master to prostitute herself commits no sin if she obeys, because she has no power to refuse. The guilt belongs entirely to the owner.

(edit: more detailed reading shows this is an incorrect conclusion based on his text - see later in this thread)

Historical accounts show efforts by Christians to buy these female slaves free to relieve them from this horrible situation.