The NEA is pushing far left teaching upon children

[Stopped_lurking]

No, because the pronoun police demand that certain pronouns be used by others. No one here has made that demand. Are you?

No.

 

[rjs330]

No, but you seem to argue that sex determines clothing?

Society determines what clothing is tied to what sex. What does that have to do with your argument that sex and gender are different?

But what clothing is related to which gender is a social convention, not a biological one.

But what clothing is related to which sex is a social convention. Not a biological one. I never claimed otherwise.

This is an example of when it is useful to have the sex-gender distinction.

You dont need a distinction. Ira tge same thing.

Their society. Then you can see them interact with each other you can, talk to them yourself. Start building a mental model of their society.

And quickly determine what sex they are.

Gender.

Which is the same thing as sex. There isnt any difference. And you haven't been able to show a difference. Anytime you use the word gender the word sex can be used instead.

Only a few,

Then it cannot be the cause of transgenderism.

 

[rjs330]

So how is fashion connected to genitalia or chromosomes or gamete size?

I've already explained that. I dont need to do it again.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Society determines what clothing is tied to what sex. What does that have to do with your argument that sex and gender are different?

It is widely used to differentiate whether the connection is a biological one or a social/cultural one. That is why for example researchers find it useful.

But what clothing is related to which sex is a social convention. Not a biological one. I never claimed otherwise.

The connection between chromosomes or gametes and secondary sex characteristics is of a different category than the connection between gender and fashion. That is why some find it useful to use different words.

You dont need a distinction. Ira tge same thing.

See above.

And quickly determine what sex they are.

What gender they are.

Which is the same thing as sex. There isnt any difference. And you haven't been able to show a difference. Anytime you use the word gender the word sex can be used instead.

I've explicitly talked about the difference in this post. There is a loss of specificity though.

Then it cannot be the cause of transgenderism.

Who said it was? I just wanted to show that chromosomes are not perfect markers for sex.

 

[rjs330]

It is widely used to differentiate whether the connection

I think it can be both. I still don't see how it shows the difference between gender and sex.

different category than the connection between gender and fashion. That is why some find it useful to use different words.

Sure, but the words mean the same thing. Gender and fashion is the same thing as sex and fashion. Thats why gender means sex and sex means gender.

See above.

See above.

What gender they are.

Thats because sex and gender are the same thing. After all the observations you determine quickly that the person is a male or female. When you determine they are a male you have determine ed their sex AND gender at the same time.

 

[rjs330]

I've explicitly talked about the difference in this post. There is a loss of specificity though.

No you havent. You have used the word gender at times and I have used the word sex for the exact same thing. Thats because they are the exact same thing.

Who said it was? I just wanted to show that chromosomes are not perfect markers for sex.

They are the markers of what is normal. That is why we can determine what is abnormal. Just like normal humans have two arms and two legs. But sometimes we have people born who do not have any number of those. However they are still human beings with a birth defect. They are not the norm for the species. Defects in genetics do not determine the norm. And this particular discussion is NOT about genetic defects. It is about transgenderism.

And the syndrome you mentioned has nothing to do with that. So I won't bother responding to that argument anymore becauae it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Which is transgenderism.

 

[Nithavela]

I think this is beautiful. As the USA is poised to invade Venezuela, this is the kind of thread that REALLY gets people talking.

The culture war is one of the greatest political moves of the century.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

I think it can be both. I still don't see how it shows the difference between gender and sex.

Sure, but the words mean the same thing. Gender and fashion is the same thing as sex and fashion. Thats why gender means sex and sex means gender.

That doesn't seem to hold for gender identity and sex identity. Most people I know would see their gender identity as the socially constructed gender they have the strongest affinity for. And they would say that their sex are determined by which gametes they produce (ok, only the doctors and biologists, the rest would probably go by external genitalia). So for them and me the words are not interchangeable. Perhaps you can loosen the definition of sex to encompass everything, but that leads to a loss of specificity.

See above.

Thats because sex and gender are the same thing. After all the observations you determine quickly that the person is a male or female. When you determine they are a male you have determine ed their sex AND gender at the same time.

 

[rjs330]

That doesn't seem to hold for gender identity and sex identity.

Sure it does.

Most people I know would see their gender identity as the socially constructed gender they have the strongest affinity for. And they would say that their sex are determined by which gametes they produce

That's what they have been taught to believe and they just believe without thinking it through.

There is no such thing as a socially constructed gender. There are some socially constructed cultural sex norms for the sex you were born as.

Some things for biological women and some things for biological men.

Perhaps you can loosen the definition of sex to encompass everything, but that leads to a loss of specificity.

No it doesn't. Because if they are the same thing then all things apply to both. And they are the same thing and so all things apply to both.

The gender crowd wants there to be a difference so transgender people can be biologically male on the outside but female on the inside amd accept them as NOT mentally ill. Thats really the bottom line for it all.

The gender argument falls flat on its face when you realize that when you use the word gender for anything, you can also use the word sex and it doesn't change anything. Its because its the same thing.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Sure it does.

That's what they have been taught to believe and they just believe without thinking it through.

Most people have thought it through. They just don't agree with you.

There is no such thing as a socially constructed gender. There are some socially constructed cultural sex norms for the sex you were born as.

Some things for biological women and some things for biological men.

No it doesn't. Because if they are the same thing then all things apply to both. And they are the same thing and so all things apply to both.

That is not how the words are use. They are not the same thing.

The gender crowd wants there to be a difference so transgender people can be biologically male on the outside but female on the inside amd accept them as NOT mentally ill. Thats really the bottom line for it all.

The gender argument falls flat on its face when you realize that when you use the word gender for anything, you can also use the word sex and it doesn't change anything. Its because its the same thing.

I've just given you an example where people use the words differently. We are going to keep using them differently, they are not the same thing.

I guess, at least when I see you write sex in the future I should always ask if you mean in the social/cultural sense or the biological sense if this how you use the word sex.

 

[rjs330]

Most people have thought it through. They just don't agree with you.

No they haven't. And of course they dont believe because they have been taught otherwise by those who have a particular social/political agenda.

That is not how the words are use. They are not the same thing.

Yes they are. The fact that you cannot use the term gender for anything that I can't use the word sex for and have it mean the same thing is the evidence for that.

I've just given you an example where people use the words differently.

You just think you used it differently. However I was able to use the word sex and there was no difference in the meaning.

We are going to keep using them differently, they are not the same thing.

You can use them that way if you want. But that doesn't mean they aren't the same thing. This is why transgendered people say they are the opposite of their biological sex. And the only way to squre that is to claim sex is not the same thing. They are female inside and male outside. But that is impossible. Because there is no strict interior maleness or strict femaleness and there is no way to strictly define it.

I guess, at least when I see you write sex in the future I should always ask if you mean in the social/cultural sense or the biological sense if this how you use the word sex.

You will be able to tell by the context.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

No they haven't. And of course they dont believe because they have been taught otherwise by those who have a particular social/political agenda.

Are you planning on putting forth something other than your assertion?

Yes they are. The fact that you cannot use the term gender for anything that I can't use the word sex for and have it mean the same thing is the evidence for that.

They don't mean the same thing. The two concepts of gender identity and sex identity are distinct for a lot of people. If you use sex identity with qualifiers to make it clear that you are talking about it in a cultural sense what have you gained instead of saying gender identity? Nothing would change for trans people. Instead of saying that there is an incongruence between their gender identity and the sex they were assigned at birth, they would say that there is an incongruence between their psychological/social/cultural aspects of their sex identity and the sex they were assigned at birth. Why not use a perfectly good word for it, if you have it.

That is in fact how it was done in Swedish, we created a new noun "könsidentitet" (it is just a compound word of sex-kön and identity-identitet). But there is still trans people.

You just think you used it differently. However I was able to use the word sex and there was no difference in the meaning.

You can use them that way if you want. But that doesn't mean they aren't the same thing. This is why transgendered people say they are the opposite of their biological sex. And the only way to squre that is to claim sex is not the same thing. They are female inside and male outside. But that is impossible. Because there is no strict interior maleness or strict femaleness and there is no way to strictly define it.

You will be able to tell by the context.

Good, if I'm uncertain I'll ask.

 

[BCP1928]

I think it can be both. I still don't see how it shows the difference between gender and sex.

Sure, but the words mean the same thing. Gender and fashion is the same thing as sex and fashion. Thats why gender means sex and sex means gender.

See above.

Thats because sex and gender are the same thing. After all the observations you determine quickly that the person is a male or female. When you determine they are a male you have determine ed their sex AND gender at the same time.

Right. You wouldn't want to impose your gendered behavioral standards incorrectly.