Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[Guojing]

The Christian people are the Overcomers for God,

just as Jacob was.

His name was changed to Israel

Christians are therefore; the Israel of God.

Your reasoning above is as valid as the one below

A dog is a mammal
A cat is also a mammal.

Therefore a dog is a cat.

 

[Hentenza]

Explain how I insert my interpretation when I stated

1. Jews who believed Christ as their Messiah continue to circumcise their kids and be zealous for the Law. (Acts 21:20)
2. Gentiles who believed are exempted. (Acts 21:25)

As I stated on my post, in the context of just Acts 21 I agree with you. However, the context of Acts 21 refers to a historical point in time. The Cultural Jew in Jerusalem would remain committed to what they had done for centuries even among the ones that recognized Jesus as the Messiah. You can see, though, as the Christian teachings in the churches outside of Jerusalem continue to emphasize faith over the law. In fact that is what got Paul in trouble in Jerusalem. Remember that the temple was in Jerusalem. The end came a few years later when the temple was destroyed and the Jews and Christians continued to diverge even more.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Body of Christ is NOT the Israel of God.

Says who? I think and your Dispie friends think if you say something that makes it true. But alas, Scripture refutes your claims.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your reasoning above is as valid as the one below

A dog is a mammal
A cat is also a mammal.

Therefore a dog is a cat.

No one can dispute that the terms Jew and Gentile when used in a natural sense are always referring to ethnic race. For most of the old covenant period, circumcision meant being a Jew, being a Jew meant circumcision. Uncircumcision meant being a Gentile, being a Gentile meant circumcision. But this all changed under the new covenant. Physical circumcision lost its old covenant place of importance. It carries no spiritual benefit today because it has been superseded with spiritual circumcision of the heart. A true Jew today is not a man with the physical sign of the old covenant upon him but the spiritual sign of the new covenant – a circumcised heart.

The whole import of Paul’s teaching in Romans 2:17-29 revolves around defining what a real Jew is under the new covenant and what a true heathen is. Paul explains in Romans 2:25-29: “if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ... For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit (pneuma).”

Paul basically spiritualizes the terms circumcision and Jew to mean believer, and uncircumcision or Gentile to mean unbeliever. He teaches, if a man accepts Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual Jew (or true circumcision); if a man rejects Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual heathen (or true uncircumcision). Essentially, he is showing: Gentiles can become true Jews through faith in Jesus, and Jews can forfeit their right to be considered true Jews if they reject Jesus.

Paul further reinforces his argument in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the Church generally, “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit [Gr. pneuma], and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

This verse is another that presents a major difficulty for the literalists. Their insistence that every reference to Israel, Jew, children of Abraham and circumcision must be strictly interpreted literally is exposed by passages like this.

All through the New Testament the term “the circumcision” is used as a natural synonym for the Jews. Anywhere it is found, it is seen to describe (and encompass) the physical ethnic Jewish people. The term “the circumcision” in its normal usage related exclusively to natural Israel. We see this illustrated in Ephesians 2:11 where natural Jews are identified as “Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.”

Colossians 2:11-14 declares, “ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

Several other references are found in Acts 10:45, 11:2, Romans 3:30 Romans 4:9, 12, 15:8, Galatians 2:7-12, Colossians 2:11, 4:11 and Titus 1:10. It must be added, the term did embody the stranger that joined themselves to Israel by faith in Yahweh. However, they too had to submit to all the customs pertaining to Israel in faith and practice, including physical circumcision.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Body of Christ is NOT the Israel of God.

Yes, it is. Tell me how you interpret the following passage (Romans 9:6-8) which I believe describes the Israel of God as being the children of God who are the children of the promise and are counted as Abraham's seed. Based on what is written about who are the children of God who are also the children of the promise who are counted as Abraham's seed in Galatians 3:26-29, that is the same description of the body of Christ.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

The above passage describes an Israel made up of those who are "the children of God" and "the children of the promise" who are counted as "the seed of Abraham". So, who else are the children of God and children of the promise who are counted as the seed of Abraham except for those who make up the body of Christ?

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[keras]

Your reasoning above is as valid as the one below

Soverigngrace has made a definitive reply. The scriptures he points out, should be the deciding factor.
However scriptural truths do not seem the sway those who are locked into false theories.

That the faithful Christian peoples are the Israelites of God is true, is the fact of there being only One people of God and the rest of the world, including apostate Jews are heathen ungodly trash, to be disposed of. Romans 9:22
Exactly as many Prophesies tell us and only a Christian remnant of Judah, will survive.

Continuing to believe and promote a general Jewish Redemption, coupled with the sci-fi 'rapture to heaven' crazy idea, puts people at risk of severe Judgment. 2 Peter 2:1-22

 

[Guojing]

As I stated on my post, in the context of just Acts 21 I agree with you. However, the context of Acts 21 refers to a historical point in time. The Cultural Jew in Jerusalem would remain committed to what they had done for centuries even among the ones that recognized Jesus as the Messiah. You can see, though, as the Christian teachings in the churches outside of Jerusalem continue to emphasize faith over the law. In fact that is what got Paul in trouble in Jerusalem. Remember that the temple was in Jerusalem. The end came a few years later when the temple was destroyed and the Jews and Christians continued to diverge even more.

So don’t claim I have inserted my own interpretation when I have not.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, it is. Tell me how you interpret the following passage (Romans 9:6-8) which I believe describes the Israel of God as being the children of God who are the children of the promise and are counted as Abraham's seed. Based on what is written about who are the children of God who are also the children of the promise who are counted as Abraham's seed in Galatians 3:26-29, that is the same description of the body of Christ.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

The above passage describes an Israel made up of those who are "the children of God" and "the children of the promise" who are counted as "the seed of Abraham". So, who else are the children of God and children of the promise who are counted as the seed of Abraham except for those who make up the body of Christ?

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It will explain why the resurrected Christ did not tell the Israel of God at Matthew 28 that they no longer had to keep the law, and it also explains the behavior of the little flock at Acts 10 and Acts 21.

But as I said, it won’t matter to you.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So don’t claim I have inserted my own interpretation when I have not.

Yes you have.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It will explain why the resurrected Christ did not tell the Israel of God at Matthew 28 that they no longer had to keep the law, and it also explains the behavior of the little flock at Acts 10 and Acts 21.

But as I said, it won’t matter to you.

The vicarious death of Christ, and the shedding of His blood, saw the complete fulfilment of the old covenant arrangement and the instigation of new covenant. Nothing else! Calvary secured it all! Jesus cried out “It is finished” in John 19:30. This is taken from the lone Greek word tetélestai. This means completed, executed, concluded, discharged (as in a debt). It also means paid in full or accomplished.

What was paid in full or accomplished? The penalty and punishment for your sin and mine. It has been wonderfully and eternally paid for!

Once Christ gave up the ghost, the curtain in the temple was ripped in two, denoting that the old covenant was rendered useless. It was finished!!! Whilst the cross ushered in the new covenant, and the removal of the old covenant, many of the outward manifestations of the old covenant still remained, because of the ignorance and rebellion of man. God dismantled the outward facade of the disannulled covenant, removing every last vestige of it.

 

[Guojing]

The vicarious death of Christ, and the shedding of His blood, saw the complete fulfilment of the old covenant arrangement and the instigation of new covenant. Nothing else! Calvary secured it all! Jesus cried out “It is finished” in John 19:30. This is taken from the lone Greek word tetélestai. This means completed, executed, concluded, discharged (as in a debt). It also means paid in full or accomplished.

What was paid in full or accomplished? The penalty and punishment for your sin and mine. It has been wonderfully and eternally paid for!

Once Christ gave up the ghost, the curtain in the temple was ripped in two, denoting that the old covenant was rendered useless. It was finished!!! Whilst the cross ushered in the new covenant, and the removal of the old covenant, many of the outward manifestations of the old covenant still remained, because of the ignorance and rebellion of man. God dismantled the outward facade of the disannulled covenant, removing every last vestige of it.

The Israel of God must have been irrational in their behavior in acts 10 and acts 21 then.

You should have gone back in time to remind them of all these.

At the same time, remind the resurrected Christ that he should have said all that you are saying here to the 12, instead of saying Matthew 28:20, you seem to think you can do a better job than him.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Israel of God must have been irrational in their behavior in acts 10 and acts 21 then.

You should have gone back in time to remind them of all these.

At the same time, remind the resurrected Christ that he should have said all that you are saying here to the 12, instead of saying Matthew 28:20, you seem to think you can do a better job than him.

I refer you back to my last post that refutes your teaching.