Do you keep the Sabbath? (poll)

[Studyman]

ceremonial, sacrificial, civil, moral, etc... these are all post-biblical labels applied to law.

Labels is not the correct word here for "moral". God's Saying some of God's Laws are "moral" and some are not, are "Judgments" of God's Law, not merely labels. Civil, Sacrificial and ceremonial Law could be construed as "labels" placed on God's Laws although God didn't divide His "Instruction in Righteousness" in such a manner. It is a 100% creation of religious men who profess to know God.

Your question was concerning the existence of the word "Moral" as it applied to God's Law in the Holy Scriptures. The truth is, it doesn't exist in Scriptures. In fact the very idea, the very thought to "Judge" God's Law as moral or civil, began in the garden of Eden by a religious voice who "professed to know God".

The foundation of its teaching, was that as long as a man lived by every Word of God, he would remain blind and ignorant. Only by judging God's Laws, some as worthy of honor and respect, and some as unworthy of honor and respect, can a man escape the "bondage" of being blind and ignorant.

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Judge the Law as unworthy of obedience) "then" your eyes shall be opened, and (Then) ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This is the foundation of the "judgments" placed on God's Laws by this world's religious system. "I don't have to honor or respect God in this Law of His, because it's not moral".

I would advocate caution where adopting this world's judgments and Labels they place on God's Laws. It didn't bode well for those examples God gave us in the Scriptures. And as Paul said, "Are we better than they"? God forbid!!"

they don't demand the law is cut up and sectioned off this way only that they can be useful for theological applications. With the case of "moral" this is a qualitative judgment, but it's not that helpful because in order to apply it uniquely to the 10 we have to redefine what moral means.

Why? This is the trap this world's religious system sets for us. First, it deceives us into believing some of God's Laws are not "moral" Laws which justifies men in their rejection of them. But because different religious sects and businesses of this world define differently what Laws are "moral" and what laws are not, there is often disagreements between the competing religious sects.

In your argument here, your definition of "moral Law" is different from SB's Definition of "Moral Law". So you have 3 choices really. You can submit to SB's judgment of "moral Law", and deny your own judgment. Or you can try and convince SB to "redefine what moral means" to align with your definition.

And the 3rd choice, which is the choice I advocate, is that we trust all of God's Word as "moral", and stop listening to all the other voices in the world that God placed us in.

Since there are moral laws both inside the 10 and outside and there are aspects of the 10 that are not based on moral action, then "moral" is only being used as a replacement for the 10 commandments but since it uses the word "moral," it creates a bias carrying a suggestion that qualitatively speaking it rises above the other laws.

We'll, there are "Greater Commandments", and "Lessor Commandments" according to the Jesus "of the Bible". Murdering your brother would be a greater evil that coveting what your brother had. Both have the same punishment for those who transgressed, but one would be worse for your brother than the other. And Jesus said this distinction has no bearing on whether we honor God in obedience or not.

But judging God's Laws, some as moral and others as not, isn't replacing the 10 Commandments, its exalting oneself over God. It's saying we are qualified to judge God and His Laws. In my view "it creates a bias carrying a suggestion that qualitatively speaking our judgment rises above the judgment of God.

A title that's more useful that isolates the 10 is calling them polemic pillar laws in their role of contrasting surrounding ANE (ancient near east) values. They don't alone accomplish this and the whole law shares that role too, but they do stand as a poster of contrast, quickly establishing value systems that are very different in terms of its monothesisic values (commandments 1-3) values of civil order that extend to moral action (5-10) and with th 4th how they value 7th day practice which was already a pre-existing value system prevelient in ANE cultures. The 10 takes the 7th-day system that would have had mass pagan association, redeeming by pointing it to worship/practice to a monotheistic God as well as lacing it with a redemptive story.

You seem to making my point here. If I understand your position, you believe SB is in error by isolating the Commandments of God given in Exodus 20, from God's other Laws and assigning a greater value to the Laws defined in Exodus 20, and a "lessor" value to those Laws of God HE gave in, let's say, Leviticus 19.

But aren't you doing the same thing by isolating one of God's Laws in Exodus 20, and assigning it a "lessor" value than the other Laws of God given at the same time, to the same audience?

"moral" is too loaded of term and pits the 10 against the other laws which was never the purpose.

I couldn't agree more. But aren't you promoting the same thing by judging one of God's Commandments given in Exodus 20, as "not a moral command", and then pitting that LAW against the other Laws defined for us in Exodus 20?

I agree that God didn't create His Laws for men to judge one against or over another. Rather, God created Laws as "instruction in "HIS" definition of righteousness for those who would join themselves to Him in this cursed world.

The 10 do not act alone from the covenant they are created in, they are called tablets of covenant law, but even before Moses climbed the mountain to get the tablets the commandments were already communicated to the Israelites, along with a host of other laws.

Indeed, Noah and Abraham was also given God's Judgments, Statutes commandments and Laws. Except for the Levitical Priesthood, which wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham, as Levi wasn't even born in Abraham's time.

The 10 are first brought up in Ex 20 and Moses climbs the mountain in Ex 24. Those 4 chapters in between all address laws that stand together with the 10, not separate to them and a part of the covenant relationship that was formed that Israel committed to... all before the tablets were made.

Some were enumerated before Ex. 20, as far back as Cain and Abel, and Noah and Abraham. And truly they were a part of God's relationship with men throughout the Bible. I completely agree that we shouldn't judge God's Laws, some as worthy of honor, and some as not worthy of honor.

We completely miss the point when we extract the 10 outside of its context and force them to work as some sort of universal moral code, for one they don't work this way. I may avoid killing my neighbour, stealing from him, lying to him or sleeping with his wife, (those are actually pretty easy to do) but I may also hate him and avoid him at all costs. If I see he has fallen, cross the street and ignore him. This all would keep the 10, but grossly misses the point. For example, Ex 23:4 "If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it." this is not a requirement of the 10 commandments, yet it is presented alongside of them and should not be regarded as separate to them. So, sure we include this as well.... it also presents laws on how we keep slaves, do we include that as well? The point is we can't cut and paste law and pick what we think is better than another. It's a package deal and is designed to work together, and it all points to Christ (including the slavary parts)

Absolutely. This is why, in my view, Jesus quoted His Father in the Gospel of Christ, "Man shall live by Every Word that Proceeds from the mouth of God.

Certainly a great topic of discussion to be had among men seeking the Righteousness of God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Labels is not the correct word here for "moral". God's Saying some of God's Laws are "moral" and some are not, are "Judgments" of God's Law, not merely labels. Civil, Sacrificial and ceremonial Law could be construed as "labels" placed on God's Laws although God didn't divide His "Instruction in Righteousness" in such a manner. It is a 100% creation of religious men who profess to know God.

Your question was concerning the existence of the word "Moral" as it applied to God's Law in the Holy Scriptures. The truth is, it doesn't exist in Scriptures. In fact the very idea, the very thought to "Judge" God's Law as moral or civil, began in the garden of Eden by a religious voice who "professed to know God".

The foundation of its teaching, was that as long as a man lived by every Word of God, he would remain blind and ignorant. Only by judging God's Laws, some as worthy of honor and respect, and some as unworthy of honor and respect, can a man escape the "bondage" of being blind and ignorant.

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Judge the Law as unworthy of obedience) "then" your eyes shall be opened, and (Then) ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This is the foundation of the "judgments" placed on God's Laws by this world's religious system. "I don't have to honor or respect God in this Law of His, because it's not moral".

I would advocate caution where adopting this world's judgments and Labels they place on God's Laws. It didn't bode well for those examples God gave us in the Scriptures. And as Paul said, "Are we better than they"? God forbid!!"



Why? This is the trap this world's religious system sets for us. First, it deceives us into believing some of God's Laws are not "moral" Laws which justifies men in their rejection of them. But because different religious sects and businesses of this world define differently what Laws are "moral" and what laws are not, there is often disagreements between the competing religious sects.

In your argument here, your definition of "moral Law" is different from SB's Definition of "Moral Law". So you have 3 choices really. You can submit to SB's judgment of "moral Law", and deny your own judgment. Or you can try and convince SB to "redefine what moral means" to align with your definition.

And the 3rd choice, which is the choice I advocate, is that we trust all of God's Word as "moral", and stop listening to all the other voices in the world that God placed us in.


We'll, there are "Greater Commandments", and "Lessor Commandments" according to the Jesus "of the Bible". Murdering your brother would be a greater evil that coveting what your brother had. Both have the same punishment for those who transgressed, but one would be worse for your brother than the other. And Jesus said this distinction has no bearing on whether we honor God in obedience or not.

But judging God's Laws, some as moral and others as not, isn't replacing the 10 Commandments, its exalting oneself over God. It's saying we are qualified to judge God and His Laws. In my view "it creates a bias carrying a suggestion that qualitatively speaking our judgment rises above the judgment of God.





You seem to making my point here. If I understand your position, you believe SB is in error by isolating the Commandments of God given in Exodus 20, from God's other Laws and assigning a greater value to the Laws defined in Exodus 20, and a "lessor" value to those Laws of God HE gave in, let's say, Leviticus 19.

But aren't you doing the same thing by isolating one of God's Laws in Exodus 20, and assigning it a "lessor" value than the other Laws of God given at the same time, to the same audience?



I couldn't agree more. But aren't you promoting the same thing by judging one of God's Commandments given in Exodus 20, as "not a moral command", and then pitting that LAW against the other Laws defined for us in Exodus 20?

I agree that God didn't create His Laws for men to judge one against or over another. Rather, God created Laws as "instruction in "HIS" definition of righteousness for those who would join themselves to Him in this cursed world.



Indeed, Noah and Abraham was also given God's Judgments, Statutes commandments and Laws. Except for the Levitical Priesthood, which wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham, as Levi wasn't even born in Abraham's time.



Some were enumerated before Ex. 20, as far back as Cain and Abel, and Noah and Abraham. And truly they were a part of God's relationship with men throughout the Bible. I completely agree that we shouldn't judge God's Laws, some as worthy of honor, and some as not worthy of honor.



Absolutely. This is why, in my view, Jesus quoted His Father in the Gospel of Christ, "Man shall live by Every Word that Proceeds from the mouth of God.

Certainly a great topic of discussion to be had among men seeking the Righteousness of God.

To be fair- I do not recall ever calling only the Ten Commandments as moral. I believe anything God deems as righteous is moral and He singly isolated the Sabbath as such saying its doing justice and righteousness and blessed be the man who keeps from defiling the Sabbath Isa56:1-2 , so when man chooses to claim the Sabbath commandment that He blessed and sanctified is not moral which than makes it amoral puts them in a place as equal to God to determine this- which is why I believe God relates breaking the Sabbath as idol worship. Eze20:16 replacing what God commanded, with what we want to do as we are told whoever we obey is who we serve. Rom6:16 If we are not serving God which He again relates to keeping the Sabbath Isa56:6 who then is one serving. Anything that has to do with our salvation is moral, which is obeying God Heb5:9

I do however believe the Ten Commandments sits on a different foundation than the other laws, because God only placed the Ten Commandments under His mercy seat Exo25:21 and no more were added Deut5:22. I think there is a big difference between God Himself divinely writing something and laws God gave man that man wrote- hence why the ones that were handwritten by Moses were on paper as it fades, were outside the ark Deut31:24-26, while the Ten Commandments, the Testimony of God written by the Holy Spirit on stone, is inside the ark of the Lord. Exo40:20 and is in heaven Rev15:5 Rev11:19 I believe there is not a law of Moses that we should keep that doesn't fit under one of the Ten Commandments the way Jesus expanded upon them Isa42:21 Mat5:17-30

 

[Dan Perez]

Hi Linux,

I answered this question on another thread and since it was long I'll post most of it here.

Many think the 4th commandment is just how to keep the Sabbath, but it actually tells us how to keep all days. Also, many think its just about rest, but its actually telling us to rest from our work and labors so we can keep the Sabbath day holy. In the Sabbath commandment there is a provision for it to be kept for everyone.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

The Sabbath is about putting away all secular things, resting from works and labors and focusing on God for one full day, on the Sabbath- God's holy day, The only one God claimed in the entire Bible. The Sabbath is a delight, not meant to be a burden as many teach. How can spending time with God on the day He set aside from Creation that comes with His power of blessings Isa56:2 and sanctification Eze20:12 and know He is our God Eze20:20 ever be a burden.

God said the Sabbath is for a holy convocation or church

Lev 23:3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

God does not want His people being on an island. The Sabbath is meant for God's people to come together as a church family to worship Him and we see this in the life of Jesus and the apostles and continuing on in the New Heaven and New Earth,

We can learn how to keep the Sabbath through the life of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath

Luke4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. What He read from is the Book of Isaiah if you keep reading in this passage

Jesus healed on the Sabbath which the Jews in their legalism said it was breaking their sabbath (not God's)

Can you imagine if Jesus could cure someone from suffering why would that not be a blessing to do on the Sabbath or any day. Why Jesus said

Mat 12:12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
Mark3:4 Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent.

The apostles kept the Sabbath with these same basic principles

As a holy convocation, reading and preaching the word of God, keeping the Sabbath holy by focusing on God through His word, prayer, and church gathering

Acts 13:14
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down.

Acts 13:27
For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.

Acts 13:42
So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44
On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21
For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Acts 17:2
Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.


In summary, I like to model how we are told in Scriptures and how Jesus and the apostles kept the Sabbath, I like to prepare for the Sabbath as much I can on Friday which is the preparation day, so house cleaning, grocery shopping, prep meals when I can etc.

On the Sabbath I like to start out with quiet devotion of prayer and reading the Bible. Then I go to church with my church family. Sometimes we have potluck which is nice. Our church organizes a lot of outreaches either help bring food to the needy or clothes or will provide Bible studies etc. After church I go back home and will usually spend the rest of the day reading the Bible, prayer or reasoning with others on the Scriptures or visiting family. I will also watch sermons. I also like to get out it nature and appreciate everything God made for us in nature. I was not a Sabbath-keeper for most of my life and went back about 5 years ago and it changed my life. There is nothing in this world that can take the place of resting with God Heb4:4 Heb4:10 on His holy Sabbath day. Nothing can replace God's Sabbath, no shopping trip, house project etc. will ever be more valuable than this sacred time with God.


His holy Sabbath convocation continues on in the New Heaven and New Earth but instead of worshipping Him in spirit, it will be before Him!


Isa66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

And in. ISA 66:22 WHO is God speaking TOO.

# 1 TO Israel ?? And how. are you saved by the LAW , will you PROVIDE A VERSE. ?

# 2 To the BODY. of CHRIST. ??

dan p

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And in. ISA 66:22 WHO is God speaking TOO.

# 1 TO Israel ?? And how. are you saved by the LAW , will you PROVIDE A VERSE. ?

# 2 To the BODY. of CHRIST. ??

dan p

For his saints Rev14:12 Rev22:14 that make it to the New Heaven and New Earth this clearly shows after His Second Coming Isa 66:22-23 for all flesh (His saints), not just Jews. This whole dichotomy that God only wants Jews to keep His Sabbath day holy, but Gentiles can profane God’s holy day Isa 58:13 is not one we can find in our Bibles Mat2:27 Isa56:6 Isa56:2

 

[Dan Perez]

For his saints Rev14:12 Rev22:14 that make it to the New Heaven and New Earth this clearly shows after His Second Coming Isa 66:22-23 for all flesh (His saints), not just Jews. This whole dichotomy that God only wants Jews to keep His Sabbath day holy, but Gentiles can profane God’s holy day Isa 58:13 is not one we can find in our Bibles Mat2:27 Isa56:6 Isa56:2

And you did NOT provide a verse how anyone can be saved under the Law of MOSES. ??

and you HIS SAINTS and not just Jews SO WHO are HIS SAINTS ??

And just where does. the BODY of CHRIST come IN by 1. Cor 12:12. !!

dan p

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And you did NOT provide a verse how anyone can be saved under the Law of MOSES. ??

and you HIS SAINTS and not just Jews SO WHO are HIS SAINTS ??

And just where does. the BODY of CHRIST come IN by 1. Cor 12:12. !!

dan p

God claimed the Ten Commandments as His commandments Deut4:13 Exo20:6 it is His Testimony not Moses written by the Holy Spirit, not Moses Exo31:18 Moses didn’t take credit for God’s work Exo32:16 and he was there. God’s commandments are under His mercy seat, not Moses Exo 25:21 and in His heavenly Temple, not Moses Rev15:5 Rev11:19, lets not lower the standard of what God claims as His, the God of the Universe in His own words the Creator Exo20:11, to a human being, the creation. That’s not to say Moses was not a very important person, but he did not create heaven and earth and he never once claimed the Ten Commandments as his commandments- because they are God’s, He took ownership of them, they belong to Him, they are His. He saints keep them Rev14:12 through love and faith which reconciles us Rev22:14


God is not going to have His heaven and earth separated- Jews on one side coming before the Lord to worship Him on the Sabbath, while the rest are profaning His Sabbath. Why He said all flesh Isa66:23 and I do not believe God will force anyone to keep His Sabbath day holy in the New Heaven and earth, if we don’t want to now, why His judgment is one of love, not everyone will be happy in a world of no sin John3:19-21

 

[Studyman]

To be fair- I do not recall ever calling only the Ten Commandments as moral. I believe anything God deems as righteous is moral

I agree, but that is the posters position that I was responded to. I know you consider other Laws of God as moral, as your recent posts have shown. I didn't mean to suggest you didn't. Sorry if my post seemed like I did.

and He singly isolated the Sabbath as such saying its doing justice and righteousness and blessed be the man who keeps from defiling the Sabbath Isa56:1-2 , so when man chooses to claim the Sabbath commandment that He blessed and sanctified is not moral which than makes it amoral puts them in a place as equal to God to determine this- which is why I believe God relates breaking the Sabbath as idol worship. Eze20:16 replacing what God commanded, with what we want to do as we are told whoever we obey is who we serve. Rom6:16 If we are not serving God which He again relates to keeping the Sabbath Isa56:6 who then is one serving.

I agree that the "Way of the Lord" includes respect, honor and obedience towards His Sanctified and Holy Sabbath, which HE made for men.

I do however believe the Ten Commandments sits on a different foundation than the other laws, because God only placed the Ten Commandments under His mercy seat Exo25:21 and no more were added Deut5:22. I think there is a big difference between God Himself divinely writing something and laws God gave man that man wrote- hence why the ones that were handwritten by Moses on paper as it fades, were outside the ark Deut31:24-26, while the Ten Commandments, the Testimony of God written by the Holy Spirit on stone, is inside the ark of the Lord. Exo40:20 I believe there is not a law of Moses that we should keep that doesn't fit under one of the Ten Commandments the way Jesus expanded upon them Isa42:21 Mat5:17-30

I don't agree that the importance of God's Law is determined by the manner in which HE gives them. Abraham and Sodom both had God's Laws delivered to them. And the punishment for rejecting them, or blessings for submitting to them wasn't based on the manner in which God's Laws were given.

I don't believe there exists a LAW of God that isn't directly tied to how to Love Him and honor Him will all our heart and soul, (Exodus 20) or how to love others or how to love ourselves. (Lev. 19)

But it's a commitment men must make from their own heart, who is God and who is not

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree, but that is the posters position that I was responded to. I know you consider other Laws of God as moral, as your recent posts have shown. I didn't mean to suggest you didn't. Sorry if my post seemed like I did.

Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate that.

I agree that the "Way of the Lord" includes respect, honor and obedience towards His Sanctified and Holy Sabbath, which HE made for men.

At least we agree on a few things. That’s a start.

I don't agree that the importance of God's Law is determined by the manner in which HE gives them. Abraham and Sodom both had God's Laws delivered to them. And the punishment for rejecting them, or blessings for submitting to them wasn't based on the manner in which God's Laws were given.

I do not believe God does anything without intention. There is a reason only the Ten Commandments is under His mercy seat and no other laws. There is a reason He personally wrote them, verses having man write the other laws that were outside the ark. I never said that the importance of God’s Law is determined by the manner in which He gave them because I believe He gave them to all of His people in all times why they knew what sin and what He deems as righteous right from the very beginning. God’s Laws belong to Him. But I do think God made a point in the manner in which He gave the Ten Commandments - He personally spoke them to an entire nation, He personally wrote them. Not something He did before. He had individual covenants with His people, but never with an entire nation until He delivered His Laws written with His finger on stone. I would like a human to try writing in stone with their own finger, they can’t why the other laws were written with ink on scrolls.

I don't believe there exists a LAW of God that isn't directly tied to how to Love Him and honor Him will all our heart and soul, (Exodus 20) or how to love others or how to love ourselves. (Lev. 19)

Agreed

But it's a commitment men must make from their own heart, who is God and who is not

Agreed

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I wish the SDA would be more consistent in their words. When speaking with them, the only law that seems to apply is the sabbath, other commandments are not mentioned with as much force or explained away. If the Sabbath were so important to righteousness, we should see the whole of Christian virtue on display. Sadly, this is not the case.
In the SDA congregations I have attended, the sabbath is sacrosanct, but if other commandments are mentioned, it is said we are not forgiving or we are too judgmental. They say we can’t stop sinning and penance is not required. It’s very confusing to think that God judges based on the day of the week we show up, but if we do not obey the commandments, are we really worshipping?

Sexual misconduct is tolerated because it’s too strong of a temptation. Pride and gossip are tolerated because some egos are too fragile
I am sure that there are some SDA that make an effort, but it is not what is taught in the 13 years I have listened to them. It’s all show up on Saturday and don’t eat meat, but eat our fake meat instead
Even though scripture says by keeping the law shall no flesh be justified, and Jesus says it’s not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, rather what comes out of the heart. SDA teach the opposite of that, keep the law of sabbath to be justified and any pork goes in your mouth, you are seen as evil. Disobey marriage vows? No problem, as long as you are teaching the other women about the Bible
I know that is not true for the whole of SDA, but it’s rampant in our local congregation, and I blame over emphasis on sabbath, dietary laws, and denunciation of penance.
The Sabbath is easy to do. It’s just an appointment. We keep appointments all the time. We show up to work on time, catch buses and planes on time. What’s the big deal if we go to sabbath on time? That can be controlled
Is it that the other sins can’t be controlled so they must be tolerated, not preached with the same force as the Sabbath? Can you show me where Jesus even mentions the Sabbath in Matthew 5-7?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I wish the SDA would be more consistent in their words. When speaking with them, the only law that seems to apply is the sabbath, other commandments are not mentioned with as much force or explained away. If the Sabbath were so important to righteousness, we should see the whole of Christian virtue on display. Sadly, this is not the case.
In the SDA congregations I have attended, the sabbath is sacrosanct, but if other commandments are mentioned, it is said we are not forgiving or we are too judgmental. They say we can’t stop sinning and penance is not required. It’s very confusing to think that God judges based on the day of the week we show up, but if we do not obey the commandments, are we really worshipping?

Sexual misconduct is tolerated because it’s too strong of a temptation. Pride and gossip are tolerated because some egos are too fragile
I am sure that there are some SDA that make an effort, but it is not what is taught in the 13 years I have listened to them. It’s all show up on Saturday and don’t eat meat, but eat our fake meat instead
Even though scripture says by keeping the law shall no flesh be justified, and Jesus says it’s not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, rather what comes out of the heart. SDA teach the opposite of that, keep the law of sabbath to be justified and any pork goes in your mouth, you are seen as evil. Disobey marriage vows? No problem, as long as you are teaching the other women about the Bible
I know that is not true for the whole of SDA, but it’s rampant in our local congregation, and I blame over emphasis on sabbath, dietary laws, and denunciation of penance.
The Sabbath is easy to do. It’s just an appointment. We keep appointments all the time. We show up to work on time, catch buses and planes on time. What’s the big deal if we go to sabbath on time? That can be controlled
Is it that the other sins can’t be controlled so they must be tolerated, not preached with the same force as the Sabbath? Can you show me where Jesus even mentions the Sabbath in Matthew 5-7?

I do not know what SDA churches you have been to, but you are making a lot of generalizations that are simply not true. I know of no SDA church that says you can break the other 9 commandments and all you have to do is keep the Sabbath, its all sin- keeping the Sabbath and breaking any of the other commandments you still become a transgressor of the Law, they came in a unit God Himself placed together Deut4:13 Exo20:6. Breaking one we break them all James2:11

I know of no SDA church that teaches gossip is okay, or misconduct is tolerated because it’s too strong of a temptation or that we can’t overcome sin. I would not attend any church that taught these things and sadly, not all SDA churches are equal, I will agree to that, but I have a hard time believing any SDA church would teach these things, unless you are referring to people in the church- not everyone who attends is SDA and many people who claim to be SDA teach against SDA doctrines- sadly the devil is in all churches. Even Jesus had a Judas. If you want to know what the SDA church officially believes you can find it here https://adventist.org/beliefs. The only reason we speak more about the Sabbath commandment is because the other 9 are not contested by most churches, except some with idolatry. We just do not treat the Sabbath commandment any different than the other 9 commandments, because God never did. He placed them in the same unit as only worship Him and not murder our neighbor. All are under His mercy seat, why breaking one we break them all James2:11 never called the Ten suggestions or Ten recommendations or pick the ones we agree with and modify the one we don't.

No where did Jesus say we can eat foods that He deems an abomination, they still are at His Second Coming Isa66:17 and not sure why one would want to when He gave us plenty of clean foods to eat.

Anytime you see the word “My commandments” “His commandments” “God’s commandments” it includes all of His commandments including the Sabbath, because God defined His commandments Exo20:6 Exo20:1-17 Deut 4:13 and they include the 4th commandment. I do not see a verse that says “My commandments” includes all of them but the one commandment I asked for you to Remember, that’s the one commandment you can forget- God is not the author of confusion. The argument that because something is not mentioned specifically in two chapters of the Bible’s deletes all the other chapters it is mentioned and is one of God’s written and spoken commandments and Testimony, we could remove a lot of Text with this mindset.

Re Mat5:17-30 says He did not come to destroy His laws, not a jot or tittle can by no means pass from My law, not to break the least of these commandments and He then quotes two directly from the Ten Commandments- the unit God defined as His verbatim Deut4:13 Exo20:6 so all are covered. Jesus didn’t mention the first commandment or the second or the third commandment specifically, so does that automatically make them a least commandment? Even if one thinks that, Jesus still said not to break or teach other to break them. Jesus does not want us to break any of His commandments, because He is the Author of Righteousness Psa119:172 Isa56:1-2 and His is everlasting Psa119:142 but instead wants us keep them through faith and love. Rev14:12 which reconciles us back to Him Rev 22:14

 

[DamianWarS]

I couldn't agree more. But aren't you promoting the same thing by judging one of God's Commandments given in Exodus 20, as "not a moral command", and then pitting that LAW against the other Laws defined for us in Exodus 20?

As an isolated argument "the 4th is not innate moral action but the others are" I am no different, I'm isolating the 4th as a "have not" law over a "have". But that's not my motivation, rather it is to challenge this terminology "moral law" when used to isolate the 10. What makes the 10 more moral than the others? Christ himself quotes outside of the 10 when quoting the greatest, is that not enough? In a strict sense, moral is a poor word to use to separate which laws are better than others because you're right, we should not be making qualitative judgments on these laws and the whole law should be received the same.

Sabbath law is complicated and it can have moral alignment as it pertains to monotheistic practice but in an ancient landscape that is driven by pagan symbolism. It is rooted in the 7th day yet where is the 7th day rooted? Sure in creation, but where does 7 come from? A critical study would reveal that the number 7 already had strong value in Semitic or ANE cultures derived from lunar activity, going back further than Abraham and from that, pagan rituals were developed and rooted in daily practice. The 7 day week may be something unique to Hebrews but the reason behind why 7 as a value is not unique to Hebrews and has deeper roots. There was already pagan practices and pagan ideologies in keeping the number 7, including counting days, notably the Babylonians saw the days 7, 14, 21, 28 as evil days and nobility would hide away during these days (a "rest adjacent" concept). It's not that the Hebrews borrowed or adopted 7 or other cultural practices like Babylonian, which are distinct; it's that they inherited it, they were born into this system, and it was already established values, but instead of rejecting it, they used it to point to God.

Commandments 1-3 are a bit redundant, critically speaking as all can be implicit in monotheism so don't need to be said yet, because of wide practice and outside influence, monotheism had to be a belaboured point. It was not just "no other gods" but clarification for graven images too (despite it basically being the same thing) and not taking God's name in vain. On top of all that it was also how to keep 7, which was needed to be defined as there was already a wide practice that was not consistent with the first 3 commandments. So 7 is intentionally redirected to be rooted in monotheism over lunar activity (which is probably also why the Hebrews don't align 7 day weeks with lunar months using extra days like the Babylonians) while at the same time pointing to a monotheistic creation origin.

The 4th is moral in the sense it rescues 7 and uniquely defines it to redirect pagan influence of the number/day to worship and rest. Routine rest can also be seen as a moral responsibility for healthy living as individuals and communities, this is coupled with the rescued number of 7 to make an ordained day of rest used for worship of God. It's remember the Sabbath day to keep monotheism over remember the 7 day because innately 7 is special (that all their pagan neighbours would say). It is recognizing something that would have strong pagan influence, leaning into it and redirecting it to worship to God as well as breathing into it theological and redemptive significance. Like creation, the 7 day practice and the number 7 itself also has it's origins in darkness where light is spoken into it and new life, along with meaning and purpose breathed into it. Creation is a part of this redirection, so is the sabbath law.

Today the day can be decoupled from these requirements as there is no longer a purpose to rescue it from pagan influence. Certainly, there is a different kind of cultural creep happening where you can say 7th day value systems are still needed and still used as a polemic but there is no need to directly rescue the physical day from corruption; but rather the need and polemic focus should be in ourselves over a day. In this respect, the 4th is deeply embedded in a monotheistic-centred morality purposed at sanctifying our corrupted ways and redirected to an upward focus. It served as a polemic to surrounding nations while Israel served as the priest, showing this upward focus and this still can be the focus today. the day and number don't carry the meaning they did in ANE culture and have become culturally irrelevant in carrying the purposed message, instead Christ is the focus that continues to carry this meaning.

This is the long way to say the sabbath law is moral but it shows how deeply impactful these laws are to the place and time they were presented. (because isolated ritual rest has no moral significance today). It's not about if it's moral or not, they were all morally centred (even the boring ones) and all about redirection to an upward focus with an outflowing of justice, mercy and compassion, even to spread that outwards to all the world. But the letter itself today may not easily align with those goals using cultural moores of today so it is not the letter we continue to spread but Christ who fully captures it (and of course he is the overall purpose) and it is he we preach, not the letter, and he we spread, not the letter. Christ's law is loving God first (that upward focus), then loving neighbour as yourself (that outflow focus). It's a heuristic approach to keeping law, and polemically speaking, it contrasts both legalism of the law and those outside of God.

So it's all moral, but if all we see is the surface letter and labels, then we've turned it into something else that Christ speaks against, even using labels to pit law against itself, which is self-destructive and logically incoherent. I get the protest to the language saying Christ does away with law, but the thing we do need to embrace is the action that Christ does to law (whatever word we use to describe this), he does to all of law, and it's not selective, there is no special law that is above or in parallel with Christ, it's all inferior to Christ. Whatever Christ did to circumcision and the sacrifice, he also did to the 10 commandments. So this requires us to improve our language and not be caught saying law is thrown away or erased or abolished (or whatever throw-away word we use), but that it is valued and kept wholly through Christ.

 

[Studyman]

Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate that.

At least we agree on a few things. That’s a start.

I do not believe God does anything without intention. There is a reason only the Ten Commandments is under His mercy seat and no other laws. There is a reason He personally wrote them, verses having man write the other laws that were outside the ark.

Jesus said there are 2 Greatest Commandments.

Matt. 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

One of them is not written on this Tablet of Stone. I know you are set in your belief that God singled out the 10 commandments and therefore any other Statute, Commandment or Judgment may have or not has significant value. For instance, the Sabbath of Feast of Tabernacles, because it wasn't part of the 10 Commandments, can be ignored or rejected by men, or not, because it was a Statute simply Given by God or Inspired by God, and not written down by God therefore remained "Outside the Ark".

The reason for my disagreements with you on this, is because Jesus clearly didn't judge God's Laws, Statutes and Judgments, in my understanding, based on whether God wrote them down on the Stone Himself, or Commanded them through Moses.

And the LAWS of God that HE writes on the hearts of His People, wouldn't they also include the 2nd greatest Commandment, which was given "outside the Ark"?

And, in my understanding, both Jesus and His Father said men are to Live By "Every Word" that proceeds from the Mouth of God. I seriously can't find where God differentiated the importance or relevance of His Commandments, Statutes and Judgments, based on whether or not they were placed under the Mercy Seat.

While I agree that God does everything for a purpose, with an intent. And the 10 Commandments are most certainly the "Milk of the Word". But using the same mindset that God does everything with an intent, doesn't HE want men to "SEEK" His Kingdom? To Seek and "Thirst for God's Righteousness, like a treasure buried in a field? To "Grow in the knowledge of God"? How is that even possible without giving the same honor and respect from our hearts to God's instruction in Righteousness, given "outside the Ark" as we are to do for those HE gave that are inside the Ark? If the 10 was all I had, who would define Adultery? Coveting? Placing something before God? Who would define "Holy"? God, not man, does this "outside the Ark"? In my view.

Anyway, it's an interesting philosophy and I appreciate the discussion.

There is a reason He personally wrote them, verses having man write the other laws that were outside the ark. I never said that the importance of God’s Law is determined by the manner in which He gave them because I believe He gave them to all of His people in all times why they knew what sin and what He deems as righteous right from the very beginning. God’s Laws belong to Him.

Yes, I agree.

But I do think God made a point in the manner in which He gave the Ten Commandments - He personally spoke them to an entire nation, He personally wrote them. Not something He did before. He had individual covenants with His people, but never with an entire nation until He delivered His Laws written with His finger on stone. I would like a human to try writing in stone with their own finger, they can’t why the other laws were written with ink on scrolls.

And Yet, the Stone that God's own finger wrote the 10 Commandments on, was cast to the ground and shattered. This Tablet of stone wasn't in the Ark in their journey to the Jordan.

Please read about the 2nd Tablet of Stone that journeyed with the Israelites "under the Mercy Seat".

Ex. 34: 1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

12Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.

24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

27 And the LORD said unto Moses, "Write thou these words": for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28 And "he" (Moses) was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; "he" (Moses) did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And "he" (Moses) "wrote upon the tables" the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

I wish only to share with you the reason for my disagreements, not to demean you in any way. I would ask you a couple of questions and then move along. Who was it that brought the dead child of the Zidonian woman to life? Elijah, or God? Who was it that cleansed the Leper Naaman? The Jordan River, or God? And the last question, who wrote God's Laws on the Tablets of Stone in Exodus 34, Moses, or God?

It's good that folks engage in such discussion especially given we are all placed in a cursed world.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus said there are 2 Greatest Commandments.

Matt. 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

One of them is not written on this Tablet of Stone. I know you are set in your belief that God singled out the 10 commandments and therefore any other Statute, Commandment or Judgment may have or not has significant value.

Please quote me saying once that the other laws other than the Ten Commandments have no significate value. If you can't find me saying this, I would really appreciate it if you not add claims I have never stated.

For instance, the Sabbath of Feast of Tabernacles, because it wasn't part of the 10 Commandments, can be ignored or rejected by men, or not, because it was a Statute simply Given by God or Inspired by God, and not written down by God therefore remained "Outside the Ark".

I do not believe I have ever said "they could be ignored" but if God valued the annual sabbaths feast days, the way He did the weekly Sabbath why were they not part of Creation when God made everything according to His perfect plan. The annual feasts days came much later after the fall and no indication they would have ever been "added" had it not been for sin. Obviously they served as another purpose.

The reason for my disagreements with you on this, is because Jesus clearly didn't judge God's Laws, Statutes and Judgments, in my understanding, based on whether God wrote them down on the Stone Himself, or Commanded them through Moses.

Again not an argument I have ever stated.

And the LAWS of God that HE writes on the hearts of His People, wouldn't they also include the 2nd greatest Commandment, which was given "outside the Ark"?

The Second Greatest Commandment to love thy neighbor that Paul quoted from verbatim to sum up with it means, can you tell me which of these commandments were outside the ark?

Romans 13: 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mark 12:31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself

And, in my understanding, both Jesus and His Father said men are to Live By "Every Word" that proceeds from the Mouth of God. I seriously can't find where God differentiated the importance or relevance of His Commandments, Statutes and Judgments, based on whether or not they were placed under the Mercy Seat.

That's your view, I do not believe God does things by random especially when it comes to His Temple and what's it in it. Psalm 77:13 Can you point to one Law that we are to keep today that doesn't have implications of breaking one of the Ten Commandments?

While I agree that God does everything for a purpose, with an intent. And the 10 Commandments are most certainly the "Milk of the Word". But using the same mindset that God does everything with an intent, doesn't HE want men to "SEEK" His Kingdom? To Seek and "Thirst for God's Righteousness, like a treasure buried in a field? To "Grow in the knowledge of God"? How is that even possible without giving the same honor and respect from our hearts to God's instruction in Righteousness, given "outside the Ark" as we are to do for those HE gave that are inside the Ark?

I think this is an argument one will have to ask God. I do not believe man needs to supplement for God's works. According to the Scriptures God added no more to the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Deut5:22 - called it the "whole Law" 2 Chro 33:8 James2:10-11 so obviously God had a reason why He personally wrote one set of Law on Stone Himself, under His mercy seat that He added no more -is the whole Law. If everyone was keeping the Ten Commandments there would be no more sin. The law of Moses all of it was added because of sin. Adding to Gods Law that He didn't seems to be the same as taking from it. Deut4:2

If the 10 was all I had, who would define Adultery? Coveting? Placing something before God? Who would define "Holy"? God, not man, does this "outside the Ark"? In my view.

Sounds like they all come from the Ten Commandments to me. Sure Moses expanded on the Ten Commandments, it doesn't change the Biblical Truth about the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses. Different laws that served different purposes. One was added because of sin, the other defines what sin is when breaking. 1John3:4 James2:11 Rom7:7 Mat5:19-30

And Yet, the Stone that God's own finger wrote the 10 Commandments on, was cast to the ground and shattered. This Tablet of stone wasn't in the Ark in their journey to the Jordan.

Please read about the 2nd Tablet of Stone that journeyed with the Israelites "under the Mercy Seat".



27 And the LORD said unto Moses, "Write thou these words": for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

Yes the words Moses wrote in a book that were placed besides (outside) the ark of the Covenant Deut31:24-26 where God placed His Laws, the Ten Commandments inside the ark Exo40:20 Exo 34 is reviewing some of the laws from each the law of Moses that Moses wrote in a book and some of the laws from the Ten Commandments that God wrote, not Moses.

28 And "he" (Moses) was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; "he" (Moses) did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And "he" (Moses) "wrote upon the tables" the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

I wish only to share with you the reason for my disagreements, not to demean you in any way. I would ask you a couple of questions and then move along. Who was it that brought the dead child of the Zidonian woman to life? Elijah, or God? Who was it that cleansed the Leper Naaman? The Jordan River, or God? And the last question, who wrote God's Laws on the Tablets of Stone in Exodus 34, Moses, or God?

So are you really trying to say Moses re-wrote the Ten Commandments to include the law of Moses on stone, this Text does not say this. Nor does it say Moses wrote the Second Tablet on stone, so not sure where you're getting that from when the Text clearly says God wrote them.

Exo34: 28 So he (Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he (Moses) neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

The Second Tablet was the EXACT as the first, both written by God.


Deut 10:14 And He (God) wrote on the tablets according to the first writing, the Ten Commandments, which the Lord had spoken to you in the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; and the Lord gave them to me (Moses)

Moses while important, is not God. One is the Creator, the other the creation. Moses did not take credit for God's work of the Ten Commandments, and He was there, not sure why man insists on doing so when its really not Biblical.

Exo31:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.


Psa 78:7 That they may set their hope in God, And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments

 

[Studyman]

As an isolated argument "the 4th is not innate moral action but the others are" I am no different, I'm isolating the 4th as a "have not" law over a "have". But that's not my motivation, rather it is to challenge this terminology "moral law" when used to isolate the 10.

You are a human like me, with a human heart, like me, that God, in His Mercy, has already defined for us both. The "motivation" for judging any of God's Laws as irrelevant or unworthy of respect and honor, would be the same as Eve's motivation for doing the same, in my view.

What makes the 10 more moral than the others?

My entire stated position is that they are not "more moral" than others. Who am I, or Constantine, or anyone to judge any of God's Laws in any manner? The very mindset that I am qualified to make such judgments of God's Laws is the same fundamental mistake Eve made, in my view.

Christ himself quotes outside of the 10 when quoting the greatest, is that not enough?

You are creating a strawman where my posts are concerned, and then arguing against it. I do not make the argument that the 4th commandment, or the Statutes and Judgments of God given "outside the 10" are to be judged by men as to whether a man should hearken to them or not.

In a strict sense, moral is a poor word to use to separate which laws are better than others because you're right, we should not be making qualitative judgments on these laws and the whole law should be received the same.

Yes, there shouldn't be any "word" used by men to justify being "Partial in the Law".

Sabbath law is complicated and it can have moral alignment as it pertains to monotheistic practice but in an ancient landscape that is driven by pagan symbolism.

I would argue that "Pagan Symbolism" began with men who tried to build their own tower to God, by mirroring some of God's Righteous judgments. The practice of "Esteeming" one day above another began with the God and Father of all at creation. The first religious sermon of this world that was recorded, took place in the garden of Eden by a voice who "Professed to know God" and even quoted "Some" of God's instruction to deceive. I don't believe I should judge God's Laws as unworthy of my honor and respect, just because some religious voices of this world pollutes them, rejects them or judged them as unworthy of my honor. Had Eve just relied on Faith, like Abraham and Noah, her life would have been different, in my view.

We have a different understanding of Scriptures. Time for me to move on.