Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[Guojing]

That’s a good question. The Bible doesn’t tell us exactly but certainly by the time Jesus gave us His two commandments that encompass the law and the prophets. However, the covenant of blood became effective at the resurrection which is when He fulfilled the law. I’m going to have to give this one a bit more thought.

We know it cannot be during Acts 10, which was at least 5 years after Pentecost, because of Peter's reply in Acts 10:28 and Acts 11:3.

We know it cannot be during Acts 15, the Jerusalem council, because only the new gentile believers were exempted from the Law (Acts 15:19), that was at least 15 years after Pentecost. The issue of the little flock and the Law was not even on the agenda.

We know it cannot be at Acts 21, because James and the elders continue to put the remnant believer under the Law (Acts 21:18-25).

So all these leaders of the little flock never remove themselves from the Law, all the way to their deaths.

 

[Guojing]

Doug has ducked around these questions and run from this discussion, as he cannot refute what the texts say.

I am asking his Dispie brethren: Can you answer these simple questions?

1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?

I think it is quite clear that, no matter how he reply, you are simply going to dismiss his points, without even considering them properly.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I think it is quite clear that, no matter how he reply, you are simply going to dismiss his points, without even considering them properly.

LOL. He has no answer, neither have you.

 

[Marilyn C]

Paul uses the image of “the olive tree” in Romans 11 to show that Gentiles have become part of true Israel. His olive tree analogy is deliberate. He takes this imagery from the prophets who likened Israel to an olive tree in Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10 and 14:6-7.

No one objective could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree here. Paul carefully describes the Jews who have been cut off as “natural branches” and being of “their own olive tree.” This shows us that this is an Israeli tree that held Israeli citizens. If the “natural branches” represent natural Israelis, and faith in Christ is the criterion for partaking in “the olive tree,” we can only be looking at the faithful genetic seed of Abraham who embraced Christ. This is the elect remnant of Israel. It was this holy remnant that remained attached to the Israeli olive tree that the Gentiles who believed now join in this new covenant era. This fulfills various Old Testament predictions that through Abraham’s seed all the families of the earth would be blessed (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

Hi SG,

May I make a point here. In Rom. 11 we read of the Olive tree as you rightly said. However, what Israel and the Body of Christ are joined too is the `Root,` which is the Lord.

`...if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partakers of the root and fatness of the Olive tree. `(Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

The `Root` is the Lord for only He is holy, and can give nourishment. Israel is not holy and we are not partaking of them for nourishment.

 

[Hentenza]

We know it cannot be during Acts 10, which was at least 5 years after Pentecost, because of Peter's reply in Acts 10:28 and Acts 11:3.

We know it cannot be during Acts 15, the Jerusalem council, because only the new gentile believers were exempted from the Law (Acts 15:19), that was at least 15 years after Pentecost. The issue of the little flock and the Law was not even on the agenda.

We know it cannot be at Acts 21, because James and the elders continue to put the remnant believer under the Law (Acts 21:18-25).

So all these leaders of the little flock never remove themselves from the Law, all the way to their deaths.

You are looking in the wrong book. In Matthew 5 Jesus explained that He came to fulfill (complete) the law. In Matt. 10 Jesus send them out in the first commission but not for the gentiles yet but to the lost house of Israel. This is important because why make the distinction. Paul later explains why in Romans 1-8.

In Acts 3 Peter stated the following which speaks of the things spoken by the mouths of the prophets being fulfilled in Jesus.

“And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. “And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers also did. But the things which God previously announced by the mouths of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has fulfilled in this way.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 3:16-17 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the pre | New American Standard Bible - NASB

And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the pre

bible.com

All the leaders knew but they still went to the temple to evangelize the Jews Just as Paul says later that to the Jew he became one and to those under the law he became one under the law. Peter being the apostle to the Jews probably stayed with the law longer which led to Paul to rebuke Peter because of it (Gal. 2).

At the end of the day Jesus nailed the law to the cross and you would expect that those that carried His message would be aware of that.

 

[keras]

Obviously; my post #280 is unanswerable.

The simple and final answer to the question of who is the true Israel of God is:- the faithful Christian peoples, from every tribe, race, nation and language. Jesus made it perfectly clear that there is only One people of God; who are His followers. The rest of the world, including apostate Jews, are doomed for destruction.

Believers in the childish fairy tale of the 'rapture' cannot support that idea, as there is no scripture about a period of Jewish tribulation and then a general redemption. Which the 'rapture' fools imagine they will watch from heaven.

If you think I am being harsh and judgmental, just think what Jesus is going to say to those who believed unscriptural nonsense, especially the who promoted and taught fables. James 3:1

 

[Guojing]

At the end of the day Jesus nailed the law to the cross and you would expect that those that carried His message would be aware of that.

So when Jesus told them Matthew 28:20, to obey ALL that he commanded them, do you expect the 12 to understand that "Jesus nailed the law to the cross"?

If so, their behavior all the way to Acts 21 did not reflect that understanding, would you agree with that?

Otherwise, Peter would have replied to the remnant who criticized him at Acts 11:3 for visiting Cornelius, with "Hey didn't Jesus tell us he nailed the Law to the cross"?

 

[Hentenza]

So when Jesus told them Matthew 28:20, to obey ALL that he commanded them, do you expect the 12 to understand that "Jesus nailed the law to the cross"?

Yes.

“teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

bible.com

If so, their behavior all the way to Acts 21 did not reflect that understanding, would you agree with that?

I disagree. I think their behavior is perfectly in line and really clear in Acts 15.

Otherwise, Peter would have replied to the remnant who criticized him at Acts 11:3 for visiting Cornelius, with "Hey didn't Jesus tell us he nailed the Law to the cross"?

Why would he say that. I already explained that as Peter was the apostle to the Jews and was rebuked by Paul in Gal. 2.

 

[Guojing]

I disagree. I think their behavior is perfectly in line and really clear in Acts 15.

But James only exempted the gentiles who believed from following the Law (Acts 21:18-25).

How does that show any understanding that the Law was nailed to the cross?

 

[Hentenza]

But James only exempted the gentiles who believed from following the Law (Acts 21:18-25).

In the Jesus church there no Jew nor Greek. All are not required to follow the law because all are of the Spirit

How does that show any understanding that the Law was nailed to the cross?

Plenty. If all in Jesus church had to follow the law then Jesus sacrifice was in vain since no one is justified by the law.

 

[Guojing]

In the Jesus church there no Jew nor Greek. All are not required to follow the law because all are of the Spirit

Have you actually read Acts 21:18-25?

Or you read but you don't care because of what Paul said in his epistles?

 

[Dan Perez]

Of course not since Jacob cannot be their father.



That refers to the Body of Christ, which is NOT spiritual Israel.

And I believe that In am. the only one that have considered EZE 36:25 and EZE 37:1-15 v and. EZE 37. 22. will Christ raise

up THOSE DRY BONES

And Israel will resurrected Israel

And the two. STICKS , one stick for Israel and one stick for Judah and Christ will make them ONE STICK and ONE NATION

dan p

 

[Hentenza]

Have you actually read Acts 21:18-25?

Yes.

Or you read but you don't care because of what Paul said in his epistles?

Paul is the apostle to the gentiles. He was being accused by those in Jerusalem of telling people to “forget Moses”. This was the typical argument among some of the Jewish converts to Christianity during that time that taught that the Christians had to be circumcised and follow the law. If you noticed Paul had just arrived back to Jerusalem from Ephesus and that epistle addresses the Jew argument head on.

As I stated before, the apostles are fully aware of the meaning of Jesus sacrifice and they had been indwelled by the Holy Spirit so they walked in the Spirit not on the law.

The other thing that I will warn you about is taking the writing of Acts as if the events described in the book occurred at the same time that it was written. A book typically contains accounts of what happened in the past. The expansion of the church began at Pentecost and continued quickly from there.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It proves you are more than likely wrong on everything prophesy related, anyone who can not get the timing correct on simple things I would never heed on anything prophetic.

Why would it....you are in error.


Brilliant stuff, and like most who cant see what they should see, it is just a very lax effort brother. You can't rebut anything I say, so why not just give a quip I get it.



Yes, once again, your lack of understanding leads you down wrong paths. Israel are THE WHEAT, they are gathered at the Second Coming. It easy stuff when you do not let untruths sidetrack you.


That is not the church, read it carefully, its the REMNANT CHURCH
which means a small part separated from a larger part. We all know God will allow people to repent during the 70th week. Now, I can PROVE 100% the Remnant can not be Jewish, so why would God/John call them a Remnant?

So, Satan gets ANGRY that he can not get at The Woman (Israel) so he TURNS to go after THE REMNANT, well that means the 1/3 Israel who repents as Zech. 13:8-9 shows us CANNOT be this Remnant, and of course the 2/3 are not a Remnant anyway BUT the do not repent, they reject God and die, so they CANNOT have the Testimony of Jesus nor keep God's commands see why I get answers? I do not guess brother, you are merely guessing, and wrong on all these things.

The Remnant is the people who were not Raptured, the 5 of 10 Virgins maybe who missed the wedding call, who then some truly get saved, and most become Martyrs, they are THE REMNANT in Rev. 12, its not The Church which is in heaven. You take obvious truths and misconstrue them.


This means the Jewish Saints in general, not the CHURCH. You just need to let others teach prophecy, its very clear this is not your calling brother.

It's very ironic for you to spew all that incoherent gibberish that contradicts scripture and then try to tell me that I need to let others teach prophecy. You are not even remotely qualified to teach prophecy and you prove that with every post you make. You are wrong about EVERYTHING and that's not easy to accomplish. But, you have somehow managed to do so.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It seems you find it impossible to place yourself in the shoes of someone who is listening to the resurrected Christ at Matthew 28:20.

You don't seem to realize that the book of Hebrews will not be written until more than 20 years after that. Paul was not even saved as well.

We can move on.

Congratulation on making ZERO effort to address anything I said in my post. I can only conclude that you don't have the book of Hebrews in your Bible since you don't seem to want to say anything about what is written in it relating to the old covenant. It makes it clear that the old covenant was made obsolete at the same time the new covenant was put into effect by the blood of Christ long ago. Your response? Silence. That says it all about you and your complete lack of understanding of both the new and old covenants.

 

[Guojing]

Yes.

So tell me what is James literally saying at Acts 21:20-25.

 

[Guojing]

I can only conclude that you don't have the book of Hebrews in your Bible since you don't seem to want to say anything about what is written in it relating to the old covenant.

I understand what you are saying.

I am asking you to place yourself in the shoes of someone who is listening to Jesus at the time when he said Matthew 28:20.

Remember, the book of Hebrews will not be written until at least 20 years after that.

It is fine to admit that you cannot or prefer not to do that, we can move on.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I understand what you are saying.

I am asking you to place yourself in the shoes of someone who is listening to Jesus when he said Matthew 28:20.

You know that was His eleven disciples that He was speaking to at the time, right? They had the Holy Spirit. Why would they have understood Him in a way that would contradict the truth taught in scripture that the new covenant was established and the old covenant was made obsolete upon His shed blood on the cross? No matter what you say, you can't change the fact that Christ's blood established the new covenant and made the old covenant obsolete.

It is fine to admit that you cannot do that.

I don't need to admit to anything. I'm going by what scripture teaches, not by the hypotheticals you come up with in your efforts to deny scripture.

 

[Guojing]

Why would they have understood Him in a way that would contradict the truth taught in scripture that the new covenant was established and the old covenant was made obsolete upon His shed blood on the cross?

What did Peter say to God in Acts 10:14?

Do you think that shows Peter understood that "the new covenant was established and the old covenant was made obsolete upon His shed blood on the cross"?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Hi SG,

May I make a point here. In Rom. 11 we read of the Olive tree as you rightly said. However, what Israel and the Body of Christ are joined too is the `Root,` which is the Lord.

`...if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partakers of the root and fatness of the Olive tree. `(Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

The `Root` is the Lord for only He is holy, and can give nourishment. Israel is not holy and we are not partaking of them for nourishment.

Are you trying to claim that even Israelite unbelievers are joined to the root? If so, that's clearly false. They were broken off. The body of Christ consists of Israelite and Gentile believers. Only they partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree, with the root representing the Lord Jesus Christ. Unbelieving Israelites clearly don't partake of Jesus Christ.