The NEA is pushing far left teaching upon children

[2PhiloVoid]

And the child, right? Kids should get a say in what they want to be called.

On a certain humanist, philosophical, psycho-social level, I agree with you that children should get a say in expressing how they feel about themselves and their relation to the world they live in. However, this becomes a problem when the powers that be decide to create and push a social, legal agenda that co-opts the children's struggles for the promotion of their own political paradigm and legislative policy.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Because is not normal and it points to a mental issue like gender dysphoria. The question really is why would the school not inform the parents?

It is normal enough. Are referring strictly to trans persons? You would be ok with the school not informing about someone expressing that they are gay or bisexual? Here the school asks if it is ok to inform the parents and the kid would be offered a talk with the school counselor.

I don't know how you see rights to privacy. But at high school-age kids should not be forced to divulge everything to their parents. Here at 16, parents can no longer see their kids hospital journals.

 

[BCP1928]

I disagree.

Here's a thought experiment for you: Let's say you work with a person called Mrs. Jones. At some point she divorces Mr. Jones and marries Mr. Smith. Consequently she is an unrepentent sinner, an adulteress. This is a sin that Jesus spoke unequivocally about, though he didn't have much to say about LGBT. The question for you is, do you now call her Mrs. Smith? Or do you stonewall and continue to call her Mrs. Jones?

 

[Hentenza]

The AI bot didn't cite its source, but the Florida case seems to be this one: Florida district won’t rehire teacher in LGBTQ+ controversy over student’s preferred name

I note that this case is the opposite of the others: the teacher followed the student's preference, which is against Florida law.

Ok. How about the one in Wisconsin, California, and Virginia.

Here is the one for California

California district to pay $360K to teacher fired for not following transgender policies

The Jurupa Unified School District denies any illegal action or discrimination against Jessica Tapia, a former physical education teacher in the Southern California district.

www.nbcnews.com

Here is the one for Wisconsin.

Wisconsin teacher suing school district after being fired for not using students' preferred pronouns

This lawsuit filed by a teacher who's been fired for refusing to use transgender student’s pronouns is the first in Wisconsin, but schools in the state have faced a series of legal challenges over transgender rights issues.

www.wpr.org

Here is the one from Virginia. The school district settled for $575,000.

Virginia school board to pay $575,000 to teacher fired for refusing to use trans student's pronouns

Former French teacher Peter Vlaming sued the school after his firing, alleging his constitutional right to speak freely and exercise his religion was violated.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[PloverWing]

Thats up to the parents not the child.

Hmm. My own philosophy of parenting was to parent with a pretty firm hand when they were toddlers -- else they would eat rocks and run into the street -- but to parent with a lighter and lighter hand as they grew older, because by age 18 they would have to be responsible for their own decisions. By the time children are teenagers, I'm inclined to listen to them when they tell me about gender identity, and I'd see my parental role as shifting to helping them find a safe path through life.

 

[BCP1928]

On a certain humanist, philosophical, psycho-social level, I agree with you that children should get a say in expressing how they feel about themselves and their relation to the world they live in. However, this becomes a problem when the powers that be decide to create and push a social, legal agenda that co-opts the children's struggles for the promotion of their own political paradigm and legislative policy.

There are culture warriors on both sides of the issue, I see that. What I don't see very much of on either side is much actual concern for the children involved in the issue. In fact, when you get right down to it, the argument from the Right seems mostly to do with the imposition it puts on them to accept trans. One side says "Use these pronouns, it will be good for the children." Whether that's right or wrong, at least it expresses some concern for the children. The other side says, "I won't use these pronouns because it would be an imposition on me whether it helps the children or not."

 

[Hentenza]

It is normal enough. Are referring strictly to trans persons? You would be ok with the school not informing about someone expressing that they are gay or bisexual? Here the school asks if it is ok to inform the parents and the kid would be offered a talk with the school counselor.

Schools need to inform parents of any changes from their kid’s normal behavior pattern. Both trans or homosexual expressions is a clear departure from the child’s normal behavior.

I don't know how you see rights to privacy. But at high school-age kids should not be forced to divulge everything to their parents. Here at 16, parents can no longer see their kids hospital journals.

In the US courts have ruled that parents have a right to protect their children so children privacy rights are quite limited.

 

[Hentenza]

Hmm. My own philosophy of parenting was to parent with a pretty firm hand when they were toddlers -- else they would eat rocks and run into the street -- but to parent with a lighter and lighter hand as they grew older, because by age 18 they would have to be responsible for their own decisions. By the time children are teenagers, I'm inclined to listen to them when they tell me about gender identity, and I'd see my parental role as shifting to helping them find a safe path through life.

We agree. My argument is that it is the parent’s responsibility to address issues with their children not the school.

 

[BCP1928]

Ok. How about the one in Wisconsin, California, and Virginia.

Here is the one for California

California district to pay $360K to teacher fired for not following transgender policies

The Jurupa Unified School District denies any illegal action or discrimination against Jessica Tapia, a former physical education teacher in the Southern California district.

www.nbcnews.com

Here is the one for Wisconsin.

Wisconsin teacher suing school district after being fired for not using students' preferred pronouns

This lawsuit filed by a teacher who's been fired for refusing to use transgender student’s pronouns is the first in Wisconsin, but schools in the state have faced a series of legal challenges over transgender rights issues.

www.wpr.org

Here is the one from Virginia. The school district settled for $575,000.

Virginia school board to pay $575,000 to teacher fired for refusing to use trans student's pronouns

Former French teacher Peter Vlaming sued the school after his firing, alleging his constitutional right to speak freely and exercise his religion was violated.

www.cbsnews.com

What were the opinions of the parents in theses cases?

 

[PloverWing]

On a certain humanist, philosophical, psycho-social level, I agree with you that children should get a say in expressing how they feel about themselves and their relation to the world they live in. However, this becomes a problem when the powers that be decide to create and push a social, legal agenda that co-opts the children's struggles for the promotion of their own political paradigm and legislative policy.

I'll allow that legislation is an awfully big hammer to use to solve a problem that is better addressed with...tweezers? The situation on the ground is one or two students in a classroom, maybe only one or two students in the whole school, who are gender-diverse. They need to feel safe in school, and their classmates also need to feel safe in school. A quiet, individualized solution, in which the student uses their preferred name, and perhaps there's a gender-neutral restroom available in the building, might be enough to make everyone feel safe enough to continue with the business of education.

While I'm grateful for the anti-discrimination laws in my own state of New Jersey, I also see that the adults shouting "You have to use their pronouns!" "No, you're forbidden to use their pronouns!" may not be making things better for the gender-diverse kid who's just trying to make it through algebra class.

 

[Hentenza]

Here's a thought experiment for you: Let's say you work with a person called Mrs. Jones. At some point she divorces Mr. Jones and marries Mr. Smith. Consequently she is an unrepentent sinner, an adulteress. This is a sin that Jesus spoke unequivocally about, though he didn't have much to say about LGBT. The question for you is, do you now call her Mrs. Smith? Or do you stonewall and continue to call her Mrs. Jones?

This is not a religious discussion and I made clear earlier what my motivation was. But to play your game, did Mrs. Jones divorce because of sexual immorality? Or because of physical/sexual abuse? If she had children, was her husband abusing the children?

Third, what does this scenario even have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Schools need to inform parents of any changes from their kid’s normal behavior pattern. Both trans or homosexual expressions is a clear departure from the child’s normal behavior.

How do you determine what's normal? If 5% percent of the population does engage in a behavior it can't be not normal.

In the US courts have ruled that parents have a right to protect their children so children privacy rights are quite limited.

Here the schools are by law required to report if they believe a child is being abused or otherwise victimized. But the schools would never report a same-sex or opposite-sex kiss to the parents if they witnessed it for example. That would seem like a huge violation of privacy to me.

 

[Hentenza]

What were the opinions of the parents in theses cases?

About the teachers being fired? I’m sure it’s diverse.

 

[BCP1928]

This is not a religious discussion and I made clear earlier what my motivation was. But to play your game, did Mrs. Jones divorce because of sexual immorality? Or because of physical/sexual abuse? If she had children, was her husband abusing the children?

Which are religious concerns about divorce. Let's say she dumped her husband for frivolous reasons. Would you still be able to call her Mrs. Smith?

Third, what does this scenario even have to do with the topic at hand?

It is addressed to the frequent argument that using preferred pronouns is condoning sin, whether you have made it specifically or not.

 

[Hentenza]

How do you determine what's normal? If 5% percent of the population does engage in a behavior it can't be not normal.

How does the school determine what is normal? As a parent I’ve raised the child since birth so I would be much better qualified to determine the extent of the change. The schools would see thst change if the child, to stay with the present topic, starts talking about gender issues or changes.

Here the schools are by law required to report if they believe a child is being abused or otherwise victimized. But the schools would never report a same-sex or opposite-sex kiss to the parents if they witnessed it for example. That would seem like a huge violation of privacy to me.

Why? Is the school going to provide gender dysphoria treatment without the parent’s permission? Or is the school merely going to ignore it and perpetuate the behavior that could result in mental health damage to the child?

 

[BCP1928]

About the teachers being fired? I’m sure it’s diverse.

It does make a difference. If the school wants a teacher to use different pronouns and the parents are down with it, what is your argument for refusing?

 

[Hentenza]

Which are religious concerns about divorce. Let's say she dumped her husband for frivolous reasons. Would you still be able to call her Mrs. Smith?

Yep. Her sin is between her and God and there is no sin that God can’t forgive. How does this exercise further your argument?

It is addressed to the frequent argument that using preferred pronouns is condoning sin, whether you have made it specifically or not.

According to you not me.

 

[BCP1928]

How does the school determine what is normal? As a parent I’ve raised the child since birth so I would be much better qualified to determine the extent of the change. The schools would see thst change if the child, to stay with the present topic, starts talking about gender issues or changes.

Why? Is the school going to provide gender dysphoria treatment without the parent’s permission? Or is the school merely going to ignore it and perpetuate the behavior that could result in mental health damage to the child?

The specific example being discussed concerns homosexuality, not trans or gender dysphoria.

 

[BCP1928]

Yep. Her sin is between her and God and there is no sin that God can’t forgive. How does this exercise further your argument?

Why does that argument not apply to trans pronouns?

 

[Hentenza]

It does make a difference. If the school wants a teacher to use different pronouns and the parents are down with it, what is your argument for refusing?

The acceptance is not universal. If the split was 60/40 then what happens to the 40%? So if three percent of the population can dominate the conversation then why can’t 40% of the parents dominate the conversation also. After all, your side relies on the minority to rule the majority.