• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

An Epistemological Look at the Resurrection

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
7,572
3,467
45
San jacinto
✟223,703.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Doubts don't happen in a vacuum. You need good reasons for doubting, just as you need good reasons for knowledge claims.
According to whom? You seem to be insisting on arbitrary rules that few skeptics would agree to.
You keep saying the skeptic “need only abstain from committing to any position,” as if doubt were a kind of weightless intellectual free-float. That is not how actual doubting works.
You're operating on an excluded middle, since the options for any knowledge claim are either a)commit to its truth b)commit to its falsity or b)suspend a decision
To raise the very objection you are raising, you are already relying on a stack of commitments:

  • that your words keep their meanings from one sentence to the next,
  • that basic logical moves like “if P then Q” are in order,
  • that your memory of what I said two comments ago is roughly reliable,
  • that there is another mind here for you to address,
  • that there is a public space (this thread) in which claims can be compared.
I'm relying on no such commitments, since all I am doing is playing a game. At most, I've accepted modus ponens as a legitimate form of inference and am asking you to force me to accept your position. I am the tortoise in our little game.
You do not defend any of that, you simply use it. That is exactly what “hinge” means. You can call it “abstaining from commitments” if you like, but your actual performance gives the game away: your doubting is parasitic on an unargued practical background. Pointing that out is not begging the question against the skeptic; it is describing the conditions that make the skeptical performance intelligible in the first place.
I don't require any of it, because I am not defending a position.
On the “linguistic turn” point, you have it backwards. Looking at the grammar of “know,” “doubt,” “truth,” and “justified” does not remove the possibility of knowledge, it removes the fantasy that we could talk about “real truth” in total abstraction from our actual practices. When you insist that truth must be something beyond “consensus agreement,” you are already trading on a whole network of meanings you never stop to justify. Again, that is the hinge structure.
Again, in defending a position I will adopt commitments but my issue isn't with the need for such commitments in ordinary practice but the fact that language is used as an excuse to take them off the table. If we can't question them and give some sort of justification, then anything that flows from them is automatically suspect because we have undefended premises. The turn to linguistics has effectively removed truth from the table because the consensus "hinges" render everything that stands on them suspect since no attempt to justify such things has been made.
And no, truth is not “off the table” in a Wittgensteinian picture. We still distinguish true from false, better supported from worse, reliable routes from unreliable ones. What drops out is the idea of a God’s-eye guarantee that floats free of any human form of life. If that is your standard for “real truth,” then of course nothing will meet it, including your own skeptical theses.
Consensus beliefs are not true, and agreeing not to ask certain questions doesn't render those questions moot.
So there are really two options here:

  • Either you admit that your own skeptical stance leans on unargued background certainties and you join the hinge conversation about what they are and how they function,
  • Or you keep claiming to “abstain from commitments” while in practice relying on exactly the kind of hinges you deny, which is less a philosophical position and more an act.
There's no "unargued background" to my skeptical posturing, there is only a deferral of commitment until "forced" to accept something. So far, everyone who has come to me with boasts about knowledge has inevitably proven to be speaking out of ignorance. So until someone can provide me a more solid foundation for knowledge than faith, I will remain a skeptical fideist at heart.
I've made my point. I'm moving on.
Which is exactly why the skeptic need not worry about infinities, because all we have to do is have enough questions to outlast those who claim to have knowledge.
 
Upvote 0

Sam266

Active Member
Nov 20, 2025
31
3
75
Spring Hill
✟413.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Single
Now you're asking? Would that be From Testimony to Knowledge: Evaluating Near-Death Experiences (available on Amazon), which you have mentioned at least twice?
Ya, I guess I should have asked earlier. Sorry about that.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Mary Shelley was .... right!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,321
11,937
Space Mountain!
✟1,411,421.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I have more popcorn.


Although I haven't read Wittgenstein widely in my ecclectically drawn, generalist views of Epistemology (and of Philosophy on the whole), I'm following what you've laid out so far. With this being the case, I have butter for the popcorn as well as a small supply of floss for those who might need it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Sam266
Upvote 0

Sam266

Active Member
Nov 20, 2025
31
3
75
Spring Hill
✟413.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Single
Although I haven't read Wittgenstein widely in my eclectically drawn, generalist views of Epistemology (and of Philosophy on the whole), I'm following what you've laid out so far. With this being the case, I have butter for the popcorn as well as a small supply of floss for those who might need it.
Most people don't know who Wittgenstein was, and they definitely don't know what he contributed to philosophy, or to epistemology. I don't have any illusions about people understanding these ideas. Some will, but most won't.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Mary Shelley was .... right!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,321
11,937
Space Mountain!
✟1,411,421.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Most people don't know who Wittgenstein was, and they definitely don't know what he contributed to philosophy, or to epistemology. I don't have any illusions about people understanding these ideas. Some will, but most won't.

Yes, that's true. Some here won't be familiar with him and some will give up reading your exposition after the first or second post, but I'm hanging in here for the moment. The main reason I know of Wittgenstein is because I had to read a portion of his Tractatus years ago for a 20th Century Analytic Philosophy course I took, along with a small smattering of bits of his work regarding his idea of Language Games.

What I find interesting here is that you've shared that you're an older fellow and a former Christian. I'm just wondering what the main locus of relevance is that you're wanting to share here in regard to the Resurrection.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

I march with Sherman
Mar 11, 2017
23,190
17,241
55
USA
✟436,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Epistemology (how we know what we know), approached through the lens of Ludwig Wittgenstein's later philosophy, especially his final work, On Certainty. Wittgenstein's insights about language, meaning, and the foundations of knowledge have shaped much of what I've written.


Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), which led to my recent book From Testimony to Knowledge: Evaluating Near-Death Experiences (available on Amazon). In that work, I developed a rigorous framework for evaluating testimonial evidence and applied it to one of the most contested areas of human experience. The framework I use, JTB+U (Justified True Belief plus Understanding) with three epistemic guardrails, applies universally to any knowledge claim based on testimony.

And what was the conclusion of your evaluation of NDEs? This is an empirical test of yer episemological frame work.
 
Upvote 0

Sam266

Active Member
Nov 20, 2025
31
3
75
Spring Hill
✟413.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Single
And what was the conclusion of your evaluation of NDEs? This is an empirical test of yer episemological frame work.
My conclusion is that we do survive the death of the body with our identity intact. So, there is an afterlife, but you have to read the book to get the full impact of the argument. It's not an easy read for people. I'll give some of the argument later in another thread.
 
Upvote 0

Sam266

Active Member
Nov 20, 2025
31
3
75
Spring Hill
✟413.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Single
Yes, that's true. Some here won't be familiar with him and some will give up reading your exposition after the first or second post, but I'm hanging in here for the moment. The main reason I know of Wittgenstein is because I had to read a portion of his Tractatus years ago for a 20th Century Analytic Philosophy course I took, along with a small smattering of bits of his work regarding his idea of Language Games.

What I find interesting here is that you've shared that you're an older fellow and a former Christian. I'm just wondering what the main locus of relevance is that you're wanting to share here in regard to the Resurrection.
Basically, that the resurrection evidence is weak and that it doesn't warrant the conclusion that Christians claim. For example, most of the testimonial evidence is secondhand or hearsay and that there is very little corroboration other than the same story being repeated by other Christians. I'll get to how you evaluate good testimonial evidence versus bad testimonial evidence later.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

I march with Sherman
Mar 11, 2017
23,190
17,241
55
USA
✟436,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
My conclusion is that we do survive the death of the body with our identity intact. So, there is an afterlife, but you have to read the book to get the full impact of the argument. It's not an easy read for people. I'll give some of the argument later in another thread.
That is not an evaluation of NDEs. It is a claim about an afterlife.
 
Upvote 0

Sam266

Active Member
Nov 20, 2025
31
3
75
Spring Hill
✟413.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Single
That is not an evaluation of NDEs. It is a claim about an afterlife.
What do you think NDEs are about if not the afterlife and the survival of the self? I've studied this subject for the past 20 years. It includes reading more than 5000 accounts from around the world.
 
Upvote 0

Robban

-----------
Site Supporter
Dec 27, 2009
11,709
3,198
✟843,648.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Divorced
What do you think NDEs are about if not the afterlife and the survival of the self? I've studied this subject for the past 20 years. It includes reading more than 5000 accounts from around the world.

What is dead is dead, what is alive is alive,

So how can there be an afterlife, First must one come alive or can a corpse bury a corpse?

Matthew 8:21-22.

Said the Rebbe, "When a cold hard heart becomes excited over a Godly idea, is this not a resurrection"
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0