Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[Spiritual Jew]

PEOPLE LIKE YOU AMUSE ME........Those who think they have knowledge, bit don't.

You just described yourself, so I guess you amuse yourself.

 

[Fisherking]

Which proves that people can be wrong for at least 40 years.

It proves you are more than likely wrong on everything prophesy related, anyone who can not get the timing correct on simple things I would never heed on anything prophetic.

Doesn't seem like it to me.

Why would it....you are in error.

Blah blah blah. It's quite telling that you just ramble on and on without ever making a meaningful point that applies to anyone here.

Brilliant stuff, and like most who cant see what they should see, it is just a very lax effort brother. You can't rebut anything I say, so why not just give a quip I get it.

LOL. Yeah, Jesus saying that the elect will be gathered AFTER the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) doesn't even remotely fit. Okay then.... LOL.

Yes, once again, your lack of understanding leads you down wrong paths. Israel are THE WHEAT, they are gathered at the Second Coming. It easy stuff when you do not let untruths sidetrack you.

Total nonsense. The church is referenced several times after that.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Who else but the church are "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."?

That is not the church, read it carefully, its the REMNANT CHURCH
which means a small part separated from a larger part. We all know God will allow people to repent during the 70th week. Now, I can PROVE 100% the Remnant can not be Jewish, so why would God/John call them a Remnant?

So, Satan gets ANGRY that he can not get at The Woman (Israel) so he TURNS to go after THE REMNANT, well that means the 1/3 Israel who repents as Zech. 13:8-9 shows us CANNOT be this Remnant, and of course the 2/3 are not a Remnant anyway BUT the do not repent, they reject God and die, so they CANNOT have the Testimony of Jesus nor keep God's commands see why I get answers? I do not guess brother, you are merely guessing, and wrong on all these things.

The Remnant is the people who were not Raptured, the 5 of 10 Virgins maybe who missed the wedding call, who then some truly get saved, and most become Martyrs, they are THE REMNANT in Rev. 12, its not The Church which is in heaven. You take obvious truths and misconstrue them.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Who else but the church are "the saints"?

This means the Jewish Saints in general, not the CHURCH. You just need to let others teach prophecy, its very clear this is not your calling brother.

 

[Clare73]

About as rich as your non answers, I always get this, the same people who profess to know things, but seemingly who
never put in the hard grunt work to get answers from God can only deflect.

That's rich. . .you handle the text loosely.

There is nothing more to say when the words of Scritpure are taken at their plain meaning, which to you is getting "too technical."
"If" is not "when."

It doesn't take "grunt work," it only takes faith in the word of God as written; i.e., "if" not "when" they do not persist in unbelief. (Ro 11:23)
Why the need to not take God at his word?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Church is seen in Rev. 2 and 3 the THINGS WHICH ARE...........Then what is the first 2 words in Rev. 4:1? AFTER THIS !! I have already showed this many times, God will point this out to you on Judgment day, how you misled people, how Satan tricked you, as he is want to do, its his JOB-1. But Jesus' blood will cover you of course, but how many people will be led astray? I understand the deep things/prophesies, this Rapture timing stuff is chop liver man, its too easy, anyone not getting this, I would never trust on anything prophetic, WHY? Is that a dig? NO, why would I listen to a person about a meeting in New York who is telling me he will see me there on July 14 when I know the meeting is on June 14 ? I would tell him a few times, that meeting is in JUNE 14, and if he kept trying to explain to me why it has to be on July 14, then sooner or later I would just not heed anything he had to sat about any meeting, ever, assuming he has to be in error on all things.

• You cannot show us a rapture in Revelation 4:1.
• You cannot show us the Church in Revelation 4:1.

Revelation 4:1-2 is not the rapture/resurrection of the Church. It is a false invented type. That is because you do not have anything to support a Pretrib rapture. Revelation 4:1-2 is describing John being caught up in the Spirit 2000 years to receive the unveiling.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It proves you are more than likely wrong on everything prophesy related, anyone who can not get the timing correct on simple things I would never heed on anything prophetic.

Why would it....you are in error.


Brilliant stuff, and like most who cant see what they should see, it is just a very lax effort brother. You can't rebut anything I say, so why not just give a quip I get it.



Yes, once again, your lack of understanding leads you down wrong paths. Israel are THE WHEAT, they are gathered at the Second Coming. It easy stuff when you do not let untruths sidetrack you.


That is not the church, read it carefully, its the REMNANT CHURCH
which means a small part separated from a larger part. We all know God will allow people to repent during the 70th week. Now, I can PROVE 100% the Remnant can not be Jewish, so why would God/John call them a Remnant?

So, Satan gets ANGRY that he can not get at The Woman (Israel) so he TURNS to go after THE REMNANT, well that means the 1/3 Israel who repents as Zech. 13:8-9 shows us CANNOT be this Remnant, and of course the 2/3 are not a Remnant anyway BUT the do not repent, they reject God and die, so they CANNOT have the Testimony of Jesus nor keep God's commands see why I get answers? I do not guess brother, you are merely guessing, and wrong on all these things.

The Remnant is the people who were not Raptured, the 5 of 10 Virgins maybe who missed the wedding call, who then some truly get saved, and most become Martyrs, they are THE REMNANT in Rev. 12, its not The Church which is in heaven. You take obvious truths and misconstrue them.


This means the Jewish Saints in general, not the CHURCH. You just need to let others teach prophecy, its very clear this is not your calling brother.

You cannot even show us the Church being raptured out before the tribulation anywhere in God's book. You have been badly misled for 40 years. It is time to change.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Remnant is the people who were not Raptured, the 5 of 10 Virgins maybe who missed the wedding call, who then some truly get saved, and most become Martyrs, they are THE REMNANT in Rev. 12, its not The Church which is in heaven. You take obvious truths and misconstrue them.

You are twisting the text to support your error. Jesus said in Matthew 25:6, 10-13, “at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him … and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: 'welcome to a 7 yr trib' or 'welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance'. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity. That is what happens when Jesus Comes, the elect are rescued, those left behind are destroyed.

Jesus refers to this climactic day when all men are judged when He speaks in Matthew 7:21-23: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord ... in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Which “day” is Jesus talking about? His return. There are many people like that in this world. They have religion, but no real relationship. It says here: what they did in life was “in His name,” yet they were locked outside. They ask Jesus: “have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?” From this statement we can take it: they expected to be in heaven. However, Jesus will say to them, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

 

[Clare73]

It proves you are more than likely wrong on everything prophesy related, anyone who can not get the timing correct on simple things I would never heed on anything prophetic.

In all of Scripture there is not one verse that specifically locates the rapture before the tribulation.
A pretribulation rapture is the notion of man, based solely in eisegesis (and never even heard of in the church until about 200 years ago).

 

[sovereigngrace]

This means the Jewish Saints in general, not the CHURCH. You just need to let others teach prophecy, its very clear this is not your calling brother.

The Church is found throughout the tribulation period.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

In all of Scripture there is not one verse that specifically locates the rapture before the tribulation.
A pretribulation rapture is the notion of man, based solely in eisegesis (and never even heard of in the church until about 200 years ago).

Exactly. Many of us bought into the lie until God opened our eyes.

 

[Guojing]

You are impossible to reason with. How can you deny that the old covenant became obsolete upon the death of Christ when we have passages like these...

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—In the volume of the book it is written of Me—To do Your will, O God.’ ” 8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Scripture is clear that the old covenant was made obsolete by the blood of Christ, which established the better new covenant to replace it. Why do you deny this when the scriptures are so clear about this?

It seems you find it impossible to place yourself in the shoes of someone who is listening to the resurrected Christ at Matthew 28:20.

You don't seem to realize that the book of Hebrews will not be written until more than 20 years after that. Paul was not even saved as well.

We can move on.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It seems you find it impossible to place yourself in the shoes of someone who is listening to the resurrected Christ at Matthew 28:20.

You don't seem to realize that the book of Hebrews will not be written until more than 20 years after that. Paul was not even saved as well.

We can move on.

What are you talking about?

 

[Guojing]

What are you talking about?

You can start following the discussion I am having with him here Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

 

[sovereigngrace]

James was the head of true Israel, the remnant that believed in Jesus as their Messiah.

The resurrected Christ never told any of them that the Law is now optional for them. Instead he continue to tell them "to obey everything he commanded (Matthew 28:20), which includes obedience to the Law.

It is rather arrogant of you to claim that they were incorrect for more than 20 years after the cross.

Christ fulfilled the Law. No man is justified by it. No man is saved by it. The Law points us to Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Christ fulfilled the Law. No man is justified by it. No man is saved by it. The Law points us to Christ.

Have SJ, or you, ever read Choose your own Adventure Books in the 1980s, out of curiosity?

If you did, ever read Edward Packard's "Forbidden Castle"?

 

[Hentenza]

Several passages of Scripture clearly establish that the coming of Christ has brought an end to the Mosaic Law.

Romans 10:4, “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

Christ fulfilled the Ten Commandments by living a perfect and sinless life and so when man trusts in Christ as his Savior, Christ’s righteousness is imputed to that individual so we have justification (Romans 4) resulting in the fact that the Law can’t condemn us (Romans 4:4-8; 5:1, 7:1-6, 8:1).

Christ fulfilled the ceremonial ordinances, the shadows and types of His person and work, by dying on the cross for us and in our place.

Christ also fulfilled the Social Law, but now He replaces it with a new way of life fitting to our new salvation.

The believer now is under God’s new law, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2-4).

Therefore, the doctrine of justification by means of faith in Jesus Christ upholds the Law for three reasons:

(1) Jesus Christ’s death on the Cross satisfied the demands of God’s Law that required that human sin be judged (Romans 3:26).

(2) Jesus Christ’s death on the Cross establishes the Law by fulfilling the purpose of the Law in driving men to Jesus Christ as their Savior (Galatians 3:24).

(3) Jesus Christ’s death on the Cross establishes the Law by providing believers the capacity to obey the Law through the ministry of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:3-4).

The Holy Spirit gives us the knowledge of sin and the way to repentance since the law is not able to. This is why there is no longer condemnation for those in Christ (Rom. 8:1).

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Hi Daniel,

Have you ever considered that `Jerusalem` above is made up of two parts - Mount Zion and the city, the New Jerusalem.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,...` (Heb. 12: 22)

Mount Zion is where the Lord Jesus rules from His own throne. His Father has set Him there.

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6) `...a throne set in heaven, and one sat on the throne..` (Rev. 4: 2)

The city part is for the Old Testament Saints.

`But they desire a better, that is a heavenly country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)

So...Mount Zion is the seat of the Lord`s rule and in the highest, with His Body of believers.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)


Then the city part comes down out of the highest heaven to the universe realm and is the rule over the earth.

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,...` (Rev. 21: 2)

Not really. Because the the New Jerusalem has always illustrated God's OT and NT saints.
The Bride of Christ

 

[sovereigngrace]

Have SJ, or you, ever read Choose your own Adventure Books in the 1980s, out of curiosity?

If you did, ever read Edward Packard's "Forbidden Castle"?

Avoidance and diversion is your pattern. You have nothing of biblical worth to bring to the table.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Hi Daniel,

Have you ever considered that `Jerusalem` above is made up of two parts - Mount Zion and the city, the New Jerusalem.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,...` (Heb. 12: 22)

Mount Zion is where the Lord Jesus rules from His own throne. His Father has set Him there.

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6) `...a throne set in heaven, and one sat on the throne..` (Rev. 4: 2)

The city part is for the Old Testament Saints.

`But they desire a better, that is a heavenly country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)

So...Mount Zion is the seat of the Lord`s rule and in the highest, with His Body of believers.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)


Then the city part comes down out of the highest heaven to the universe realm and is the rule over the earth.

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,...` (Rev. 21: 2)

Dispies make it up as they go. Your diversion is another erroneous theological invention.

 

[Marilyn C]

Not really. Because the the New Jerusalem has always illustrated God's OT and NT saints.
The Bride of Christ

However, Mount Zion has always represented rulership - David`s and the Lord`s.

 

[Marilyn C]

Dispies make it up as they go. Your diversion is another erroneous theological invention.

I see you don`t have scripture, however I posted some and that is what needs to be discussed.

Have you ever considered that `Jerusalem` above is made up of two parts - Mount Zion and the city, the New Jerusalem.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,...` (Heb. 12: 22)

Mount Zion is where the Lord Jesus rules from His own throne. His Father has set Him there.

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6) `...a throne set in heaven, and one sat on the throne..` (Rev. 4: 2)

The city part is for the Old Testament Saints.

`But they desire a better, that is a heavenly country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)

So...Mount Zion is the seat of the Lord`s rule and in the highest, with His Body of believers.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)


Then the city part comes down out of the highest heaven to the universe realm and is the rule over the earth.

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,...` (Rev. 21: 2)