Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[Spiritual Jew]

It comprise of descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who believed that Christ is their promised Messiah, aka the gospel of the kingdom (Romans 9:6-13)

So, you do see a differentiation between national Israel, comprised of all of those who physically descend from the nation of Israel (including unbelievers) and true Israel, consisting only of believers. Why do you think that being part of true Israel has anything to do with being part of national Israel when Paul specifically says "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham" and "those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"? It seems to me that Paul was indicating that one's nationality or being physically descended from Abraham has nothing to do with being part of true Israel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No, to the first question.

Yet, there are unbelievers who are physical descendants of national Israel. So, national Israel and true Israel are two different entities. It seems that you do understand there are two Israels, but, for some reason, you think that one's nationality has something to do with being part of the Israel of God even though scripture does not say that.

Regarding the second question, the requirements are (1) being a Jew (2) believing in Jesus.

Where is that indicated in scripture? You won't find that in Romans 9:6-8 where Paul differentiates between physical, national Israel and the spiritual Israel of God.

Israelites of God is a non-biblical term that can be misleading.

You worry way too much about things like this. We know that the Israel of God is a biblical term, so there is no reason to be concerned about calling those who are part of the Israel of God "Israelites of God".

Gentile believers in Jesus are not Israelites of God by virtue of believing in Jesus.

Yes, we are. In Romans 9:6-8, Paul indicates that being part of spiritual Israel is not dependent at all on being physically descended from national Israel or Abraham, but instead it's those who are the children of God and of the promise who are part of the spiritual Israel of God and are counted as Abraham's seed. If you read Galatians 3:26-29, Paul makes it clear that the children of God are all Jew and Gentile believers and that makes them the children of the promise who are counted as Abraham's seed.

Nor are Gentile believers in Jesus - "Spiritual Jews" - by virtue of believing in Jesus.

Wrong. All who belong to Christ are spiritual Jews. It's unbelievably sad that you or any Christian can't recognize this. Paul made it very clear that one's physical nationality or being a religious Jew by way of physical circumcision has nothing to do with being a spiritual Jew, but rather being spiritually circumcised makes someone a spiritual Jew.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose [a]praise is not from men but from God.

Paul says "he is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly...but he IS a Jew who is one inwardly". Douggg says "he is a Jew who is one both outwardly and inwardly". I will go with what Paul says over what you say every time.

All believers, Jew and Gentile, are spiritually circumcised by the circumcision of Christ, so we are all spiritual Jews since Paul indicated that the only requirement for being a spiritual Jew is being spiritually circumcised.

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 1

 

[Spiritual Jew]

James was the head of true Israel, the remnant that believed in Jesus as their Messiah.

The resurrected Christ never told any of them that the Law is now optional for them. Instead he continue to tell them "to obey everything he commanded (Matthew 28:20), which includes obedience to the Law.

It is rather arrogant of you to claim that they were incorrect for more than 20 years after the cross.

It is rather foolish of you to deny that the old covenant law was made obsolete by the blood of Christ despite scripture teaching that in Hebrews 8-10. His blood established the new covenant and made the old covenant obsolete. That is what it clearly says in passages like Hebrews 8:6-13 and Hebrews 10:1-14. But, you are contradicting that by claiming that the old covenant law was still in effect after His death.

 

[Guojing]

Is it rather foolish of you to deny that the old covenant law was made obsolete by the blood of Christ despite scripture teaching that in Hebrews 8-10. His blood established the new covenant and made the old covenant obsolete. That is what it clearly says in passages like Hebrews 8:6-13 and Hebrews 10:1-14. But, you are contradicting that by claiming that the old covenant law was still in effect after His death.

Did you not read my 2nd paragraph?

The resurrected Christ never told any of them that the Law is now optional for them. Instead he continue to tell them "to obey everything he commanded (Matthew 28:20), which includes obedience to the Law.

Was Christ foolish as well?

 

[Guojing]

So, you do see a differentiation between national Israel, comprised of all of those who physically descend from the nation of Israel (including unbelievers) and true Israel, consisting only of believers. Why do you think that being part of true Israel has anything to do with being part of national Israel when Paul specifically says "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham" and "those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"? It seems to me that Paul was indicating that one's nationality or being physically descended from Abraham has nothing to do with being part of true Israel.

True Israel comprised of descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

You are not Jacob's descendant, even though you may have descended from Abraham.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Did you not read my 2nd paragraph?

Yes, I did.

The resurrected Christ never told any of them that the Law is now optional for them. Instead he continue to tell them "to obey everything he commanded (Matthew 28:20), which includes obedience to the Law.

Show me where Jesus indicated that they had to obey the law of Moses after His resurrection. He never did. You continue to just make things up.

Was Christ foolish as well?

This is a foolish question.

Do you not accept what it says in verses like Hebrews 8:13 and Hebrews 10:9-10 that talk about the old covenant law being made obsolete by the blood of Christ? If not, why not?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

True Israel comprised of descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

You are not Jacob's descendant, even though you may have descended from Abraham.

Show me where True Israel is described as being comprised of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Do you see Paul saying that in Romans 9:6-8 where he contrasts national Israel with true Israel? I believe your claim blatantly contradicts what Paul said about true Israel in Romans 9:6-8. He said it is comprised of the children of God who are the children of the promise and counted as Abraham's seed? Who are the children of God who also are the children of the promise and counted as Abraham's seed? I'll give you a hint. The answer is in Galatians 3:26-29.

 

[Guojing]

Show me where True Israel is described as being comprised of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Do you see Paul saying that in Romans 9:6-8 where he contrasts national Israel with true Israel? I believe your claim blatantly contradicts what Paul said about true Israel in Romans 9:6-8. He said it is comprised of the children of God who are the children of the promise and counted as Abraham's seed? Who are the children of God who also are the children of the promise and counted as Abraham's seed? I'll give you a hint. The answer is in Galatians 3:26-29.

Already given you, Romans 9:6-13.

You just need to extend beyond verse 8 to a few more verses to see that.

 

[Guojing]

Show me where Jesus indicated that they had to obey the law of Moses after His resurrection. He never did. You continue to just make things up.

Already gave you Matthew 28:20.

All means all

 

[Douggg]

Paul says "he is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly...but he IS a Jew who is one inwardly". Douggg says "he is a Jew who is one both outwardly and inwardly". I will go with what Paul says over what you say every time.

Paul was saying that of the Jews - a person who is truly a Jew is one inwardly - by believing in Jesus.

Paul was not saying that a Gentile by virtue of believing in Jesus is a Jew.

The only thing that matters is if a person is a Christian or not. Believers in Jesus are Christians. Just go with that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Already gave you Matthew 28:20.

All means all

Yes, it does, and He did not command them that they would need to keep the old covenant law of Moses after His death and resurrection. What don't you understand about that? What He commanded them was things like loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. He also commanded them to love their enemies, bless those who curse them and other things like He did here...

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

What He commanded was not the law of Moses of the old covenant, but the law of Christ of the new covenant. You are very naive about what scripture teaches.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, it does, and He did not command them that they would need to keep the old covenant law of Moses after His death and resurrection.

There are plenty of scripture before the cross that He commanded obedience to the Law of Moses.

Would you agree with that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul was saying that of the Jews - a person who is truly a Jew is one inwardly - by believing in Jesus.

That is not what he said. You are twisting his words. He very specifically said that he is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly, but rather is a Jew who is one inwardly. That describes a spiritual Jew because it has nothing to do with being a Jew outwardly. Your claim that he was talking about Jews there takes him completely out of context. All Christians are spiritual Jews because we have all been circumcised by the spiritual circumcision of Christ. Your eyes are blinded to truths like this and it's sad to see.

Paul was not saying that a Gentile by virtue of believing in Jesus is a Jew.

Yes, he was. He specifically indicated that the type of Jew he was talking about in Romans 2:29 is NOT one based on anything outward like physical circumcision, but rather is one based on something inward - the circumcision of the heart.

The only thing that matters is if a person is a Christian or not. Believers in Jesus are Christians. Just go with that.

Bible doctrine matters and you believe a lot of false doctrine. We discuss Bible doctrine here on this forum. There are other forums we can go to where we can just agree with all the basics of Christianity, but this is not that forum. Ask God for wisdom so that you can start taking in spiritual solid food instead of only sipping on spiritual milk.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There are plenty of scripture before the cross that He commanded obedience to the Law of Moses.

Would you agree with that?

Yes, of course He did that while the old covenant law of Moses was still in effect, but you are missing the point. Are you even trying to see it? The old covenant was no longer in effect after His death! It says so explicitly in Hebrews 8:6-13 and Hebrews 10:9-10. Why don't you accept those scriptures? Scripture says that Jesus came to fulfill the law so that none of us, including any Jews, would need to since doing that requires perfect obedience. If someone disobeys even one commandment of the law then they are guilty of breaking all of them (James 2:10). We're under the new covenant now and the new covenant was established by the blood of Christ. If you deny that He established the new covenant and made the old covenant obsolete with His shed blood, then you are denying a Christian fundamental belief, in my opinion. What Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 applied to the things He commanded them that were still in effect at that time going forward to the end of the age.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, of course He did that while the old covenant law of Moses was still in effect

So put yourself in the shoes of anyone who were with him since the beginning, the 12 + James.

when you hear the resurrected Christ say Matthew 28:20, would you ever think that the Law of Moses died at the cross, that the old covenant was no longer in effect after His death?

If Christ meant to tell them that it did, he must have been a poor communicator by saying "teaching them to obey ALL that I have commanded you".

 

[Marilyn C]

Consider the verse below when thinking about the modern nation of Israel.

Isaiah 54:9 To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.

The Apostle Paul declares the obvious in Galatians 4:26-27. That Isaiah 54 is a prophecy about the New Jerusalem.

Hi Daniel,

Have you ever considered that `Jerusalem` above is made up of two parts - Mount Zion and the city, the New Jerusalem.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,...` (Heb. 12: 22)

Mount Zion is where the Lord Jesus rules from His own throne. His Father has set Him there.

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6) `...a throne set in heaven, and one sat on the throne..` (Rev. 4: 2)

The city part is for the Old Testament Saints.

`But they desire a better, that is a heavenly country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)

So...Mount Zion is the seat of the Lord`s rule and in the highest, with His Body of believers.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)


Then the city part comes down out of the highest heaven to the universe realm and is the rule over the earth.

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,...` (Rev. 21: 2)

 

[Fisherking]

That's rich. . .

About as rich as your non answers, I always get this, the same people who profess to know things, but seemingly who never put in the hard grunt work to get answers from God can only deflect.

 

[Fisherking]

Where is the rapture in Rev 4:1? Where is the mention of the Church in Rev 4:1? You cannot even show these. That because it is not there. You force it into the inspired text. You cannot even get to B, never mind Z. Pretrib is all man-made theories. There is no authentic divine substance to it.

Church is seen in Rev. 2 and 3 the THINGS WHICH ARE...........Then what is the first 2 words in Rev. 4:1? AFTER THIS !! I have already showed this many times, God will point this out to you on Judgment day, how you misled people, how Satan tricked you, as he is want to do, its his JOB-1. But Jesus' blood will cover you of course, but how many people will be led astray? I understand the deep things/prophesies, this Rapture timing stuff is chop liver man, its too easy, anyone not getting this, I would never trust on anything prophetic, WHY? Is that a dig? NO, why would I listen to a person about a meeting in New York who is telling me he will see me there on July 14 when I know the meeting is on June 14 ? I would tell him a few times, that meeting is in JUNE 14, and if he kept trying to explain to me why it has to be on July 14, then sooner or later I would just not heed anything he had to sat about any meeting, ever, assuming he has to be in error on all things.

 

[Fisherking]

That's a seriously long time to be completely wrong about so many different things.

PEOPLE LIKE YOU AMUSE ME........Those who think they have knowledge, bit don't.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So put yourself in the shoes of anyone who were with him since the beginning, the 12 + James.

when you hear the resurrected Christ say Matthew 28:20, would you ever think that the Law of Moses died at the cross, that the old covenant was no longer in effect after His death?

If Christ meant to tell them that it did, he must have been a poor communicator by saying "teaching them to obey ALL that I have commanded you".

You are impossible to reason with. How can you deny that the old covenant became obsolete upon the death of Christ when we have passages like these...

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—In the volume of the book it is written of Me—To do Your will, O God.’ ” 8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Scripture is clear that the old covenant was made obsolete by the blood of Christ, which established the better new covenant to replace it. Why do you deny this when the scriptures are so clear about this?