What is the meaning of Total Depravity?

[Hentenza]

More importantly is you ignore the entire phrase of the verse. The Greek is those “who HABITUALLY/PRACTICES SIN are slaves to sin.”

Can you justify your Greek interpretation of this verse? Where in the language does it translate to “habitually/practices”?

 

[Clare73]

I understand you’ve misconstrued what Jesus is recorded to have said.

John never used your unique phraseology of morally free.” Never mind that the phrase “morally free” is ambiguous as to meaning.

More importantly is you ignore the entire phrase of the verse. The Grees those “who HABITUALLY/PRACTICES SIN are slaves to sin.”

Agreed. . .the unregenerate are slaves to sin (e.g., the sin of unbelief).

 

[Clare73]

We freely “make the moral choice” to not “live sinlessly.” Why? Because we want to and choose to freely do so.

Is anyone able to live sinlessly?

 

[fhansen]

Is anyone able to live sinlessly?

And yet, can anyone sinning wantonly, willfully, gravely, enter heaven? Must we overcome sin as per Rom 8:12-14 or Heb 12:14?

 

[Clare73]

And yet, can anyone sinning wantonly, willfully, gravely, enter heaven? Must we overcome sin as per Rom 8:12-14 or Heb 12:14?

Non-responsive to the question: "Is anyone able to live sinlessly?" (post #143),

asked in response to the statement: 'We freely “make the moral choice” to not “live sinlessly.” ' (post #140)

 

[fhansen]

Non-responsive to the question: "Is anyone able to live sinlessly?" (post #143),

asked in response to the question: 'We freely “make the moral choice” to not “live sinlessly.” '

Ok, no one is able to live sinlessly. "And yet, can anyone sinning wantonly, willfully, gravely, enter heaven? Must we overcome sin as per Rom 8:12-14 or Heb 12:14?"

Then, whether we freely make the choice, whether are wills are at all involved, is a separate question. Again,

"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness."

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:11-14, 20-22

 

[Clare73]

Ok, no one is able to live sinlessly. "And yet, can anyone sinning wantonly, willfully, gravely, enter heaven? Must we overcome sin as per Rom 8:12-14 or Heb 12:14?"

The issue is rebirth.

The Holy Spirit does not dwell in the "wantonly, willfully, gravely" sinning. . .without which Holy Spirit they cannot enter heaven, .

 

[fhansen]

The issue is rebirth.

The born again do not sin "wantonly, willfully, gravely". . .for the Holy Spirit does not dwell in such, which is why such cannot enter heaven.

Ok, so that tranlsates into, no, a believer cannot sin "wantonly, willfully, gravely" and expect to enter heaven. They must overcome sin to one degree or another as Rom 8 insists.

 

[Clare73]

Ok, so that tranlsates into, no, a believer cannot sin "wantonly, willfully, gravely" and expect to enter heaven. They must overcome sin to one degree or another as Rom 8 insists.

It's about rebirth, not sin.

The born again do not sin "wantonly, willfully, gravely," that is what the unregenerate do.
The unregenerate do not enter heaven because they are not regenerate, whether they are Buddhist monks or grave sinners.

 

[fhansen]

It's about rebirth, not sin.

The born again do not sin "wantonly, willfully, gravely," that is what the unregenerate do.
The unregenerate do not enter heaven because they are not regenerate, whether they are Buddhist monks or grave sinners.

So this means you must distinguish between gravity, etc, of sins in order to even be able to identify who is likely to be regenerated and who is not. Otherwsie wanton, willfull, and grave would be meaningless terms. Therefore, while a reborn person does not overcome sin perfectly, they must yet overome sin-sufficiently to even be a regenerated person.

 

[Clare73]

So this means you must distinguish between gravity, etc, of sins in order to even be able to identify who is likely to be regenerated and who is not. Otherwsie wanton, willfull, and grave would be meaningless terms. Therefore, while a reborn person does not overcome sin perfectly, they must yet overome sin-sufficiently to even be a regenerated person.

The Holy Spirit in the born again generates the overcoming of sin.

Wanton, willful and grave sin are evidence of no Holy Spirit; i.e., no rebirth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Total Depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism)

I've heard Calvinists like RC Sproul and say "Total Depravity" can be misunderstood, and a better term might be "Total Inability".

What is the biblical basis for Total Depravity or Total inability.

And what can a person do before they become a christian.

One of the biggest problems with total depravity is that as soon as you actually dig into the implications of it the Calvinist idea of sovereignty goes right out the window.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Holy Spirit in the born again generates the overcoming of sin.

Wanton, willful and grave sin are evidence of no Holy Spirit; i.e., no rebirth.

When does a person become a child of God? Is it before or after they are born again? Or is it simultaneously?

 

[Clare73]

One of the biggest problems with total depravity is that as soon as you actually dig into the implications of it the Calvinist idea of sovereignty goes right out the window.

"Total depravity" is total inability to live a sinless life (Jn 8:34).

And the implications of it do not drive sovereignty right out the window.

 

[Clare73]

When does a person become a child of God? Is it before or after they are born again? Or is it simultaneously?

Saving faith results from the sovereign rebirth, which rebirth is the going from eternal death into eternal life, becoming a child of God, by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit.

 

[fhansen]

The Holy Spirit in the born again generates the overcoming of sin.

Wanton, willful and grave sin are evidence of no Holy Spirit; i.e., no rebirth.

And we must freely paricticipate in that work of His as we are now debtors due to God's gift, obligated to overcome.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

IOW, while true believers are not perfectly sinless in this life, they must still overcome sin. If a believer had no choice, on a moment by moment basis, to be either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, then he would never sin, he would always be a slave to righteousness. Instead, Paul exhorts us to remain slaves of righteousness. Because “the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:22

 

[Clare73]

And we must freely paricticipate in that work of His as we are now debtors due to God's gift, obligated to overcome.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

IOW, while true believers are not perfectly sinless in this life, they must still overcome sin.

That is done in the power of Holy Spirit who now indwells them.

No overcoming means no Holy Spirit.

 

[fhansen]

That is done in the power of Holy Spirit who now indwells them.

No overcoming means no Holy Spirit.

Right, they either never turned to Him to begin with, or they've turned back away from Him, failing to remain, returning to the flesh. Those, however, who persevere to the end, producing the good fruit of overcoming sin and doing good, will prove themselves to have been good soil.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Saving faith results from the sovereign rebirth, which rebirth is the going from eternal death into eternal life, becoming a child of God, by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit.

So rebirth precedes faith?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Saving faith results from the sovereign rebirth, which rebirth is the going from eternal death into eternal life, becoming a child of God, by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit.

So wouldn’t being a reprobate also be the sovereign will of God?