The Reality of Free Will

[childeye 2]

The ability to make a choice is free will. Adam by his own free will violated GODS command to not eat the forbidden fruit. If we humans were created in GODS image and GOD has free will then humans do too. This image cannot be flesh and blood because GOD is not flesh and blood, GOD is spirit and all humans have a spirit and GOD wants the spirits of just men made perfect. Our human spirit is our mind, sometimes called the heart, and all of our intelligence, memories and experiences are of the mind, the human spirit. Job 8:32 The breath of life is the spirit in us that animates the fleshly body to be a soul. When Adam disobeyed GOD then sin entered the world, it did not exist prior to that time. Satan then acquired the dominion GOD had given to Adam previously and now is the god of this world. Christ took that dominion back but has not yet returned to claim it. The human condition of sin, our sinful nature, is not how GOD originally created the first humans, it was acquired by disobeying GOD. Whoever you render yourself a servant to obey is who you will obey and humanity has obeyed their father the Devil and does his works. Our human spirits were defiled. Jesus confirmed this by saying, Mark 7:15-23 what part of us is saved in the day of the Lord Jesus ? 1 Corinthians 5:5 It is our spirits, the spirits of just human beings that are made perfect. Hebrews 12:23 This spiritual defilement can only be healed by the blood of Christ. We partake of the divine nature, the nature of GODS love, and over our lives come out of sin and into righteousness. This process begins at conversion but is completed in the day Jesus returns. Philippians 1:6

The ability to make a choice is not a desire. In scripture, the will means desire/want/intent.

 

[Fervent]

If someone must say, "I would, but then he would," his will is not free.

Sure it is, he has just chosen the limits of consequences he is willing to face. He still freely wills whether or not to engage in the activity.

 

[CoreyD]

The Bible says Adam was not deceived.
Thus Adam acted on his own free will.

Where is the noun, and does this mean you are finished with the discussion and want to spend the remainder of time arguing about a word?
It's better to address the question of whether or not God gave man free will.

 

[CLEEB]

Where is the noun, and does this mean you are finished with the discussion and want to spend the remainder of time arguing about a word?
It's better to address the question of whether or not God gave man free will.

Does GOD force salvation on anyone ? Hebrews 10:26 to willingly, willfully sin after being converted there is no more sacrifice for sins. This describes a person who with knowledge of the truth blasphemes the Holy Spirit , there is no forgiveness. Mark 3:29 This concept of human free will was demonstrated in the free will offering Exodus 35:5 Exodus 25:2-7 this concept was continued in the new covenant, 2 Corinthians 9:7 2 Corinthians 8:3-5 2 Corinthians 8:8 Unless you had a shotgun wedding you married your wife willingly because you truly loved her. In a similar sense we love GOD and our neighbor. True love is given willingly, freely otherwise it is not true. You can’t command anyone to love you they must love you because they want to. Matthew 22:37 GOD IS love, GOD loves us willingly and freely and we are to love HIM back in the same way as well as our neighbor. If true love can’t be understood then free will can’t either

 

[CLEEB]

The Bible is filled with direct commands and choices, which only make sense if the recipient is capable of selecting between alternatives.

"I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life...'

Scripture proves a choice between two trees in Eden. A choice under the law to choose life and live. A choice to count the cost of answering GODS call, again one of life or death. Perhaps this is why many are called but few are chosen. Without free will how would GOD judge us righteously ? Are we condemned to death for reasons we had no part in ? Even though GOD is omniscient this means HE knows all things but HE has not caused all things. Did GOD force Lucifer to rebel ? Did HE force Adam to sin ? Or is it that HE just knew in advance all these things and made them all work together for good in the end ? The father of lies and sin isn’t GOD, it’s Satan . In order for humanity to choose between good and evil the presence of both is required and in this Satan is but a tool GOD uses. In eternity GOD knew before HE created the angels that a third of them would sin against HIM and it would be their free will choice to do so. GOD permitted this angelic sin knowing HE could use these fallen angels in HIS work to make human beings a joint heir with HIS son of all things HE created. GOD has in eternity known all HIS saints even having their names in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world. This HE could do because HE knew who would genuinely repent and submit to HIS will and those who would not. GOD has known the free will choices of humanity but did not make them for humanity. GOD planned out HIS salvation with all this in HIS mind. It is extremely important to GOD that we have free will because HE wants us to love HIM with it.

 

[CLEEB]

That is precisely what Paul states:

Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived (1 Tim 2:14).
Adam chose to sin with her.

Because Adam wasn’t deceived and Eve was is proof of free will because if there was no free will their response would have been the same. It shows a difference in wills between Adam and Eve. Why is it so difficult to see that both Adam and Eve did not acquire the knowledge of good and evil until Adam ate the forbidden fruit ? In order to sin you must have the knowledge of good and evil and do the evil instead of the good. James 4:17 Adams sin was unique because it determined the course of humanity our sins do not. Today every man dies for his own sin. Adam and Eve at their creation were not innocent of sin because they were righteous but because they were ignorant.

 

[David Lamb]

Because Adam wasn’t deceived and Eve was is proof of free will because if there was no free will their response would have been the same. It shows a difference in wills between Adam and Eve. Why is it so difficult to see that both Adam and Eve did not acquire the knowledge of good and evil until Adam ate the forbidden fruit ? In order to sin you must have the knowledge of good and evil and do the evil instead of the good. James 4:17 Adams sin was unique because it determined the course of humanity our sins do not. Today every man dies for his own sin. Adam and Eve at their creation were not innocent of sin because they were righteous but because they were ignorant.

But Eve being deceived was before the Fall. Our state by nature since the Fall has been slavery/bondage to sin. That is why we need the Saviour to grant us freedom:

“34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 “And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 “Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.” (Joh 8:34-36 NKJV)

 

[CLEEB]

You aren't a faultless catcher nor a perfect typist if you can't.

And you aren't sinless unless you can be without sin.

And if you're not free to be without sin, then you are not totally free, your moral freedom is limited.

Keeping in mind that "free will" (ability to make all moral choices) is not Biblical, it is a notion of man (Pelagius).

Sin passed to all humanity because of Adam therefore all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of GOD. No human being is without sin. GOD gave us HIS son who was without sin to be the sin offering for us. It is irrelevant and to try to prove or disprove free will with something that scripture already confirms. While we were yet sinners Christ die for us. We then must have faith in this sinless messiah to have the hope of salvation. We can’t will ourselves to not sin, we are sin. GOD is the one who is not willing that any should perish but come to repentance. We have the disease of sin and GOD has the cure.

 

[CoreyD]

Does GOD force salvation on anyone ? Hebrews 10:26 to willingly, willfully sin after being converted there is no more sacrifice for sins. This describes a person who with knowledge of the truth blasphemes the Holy Spirit , there is no forgiveness.

Interesting you should ask this.
I said this to @childeye 2 earlier:

Free will allows one to choose not to act on sinful desires, nor have a mindset that is against God's will - setting one's mind on the flesh.​

One can choose to set one's mind on the spirit, and keep walking by spirit, or allow oneself to be led by the spirit.​

​

Romans 13:11-14​

11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now [a]salvation is nearer to us than when we first believed. 12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let’s rid ourselves of the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let’s [b]behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and debauchery, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.​

​

This is a choice you and I have to make.​

It is not a built in program that we automatically follow.​

These involve action on our part... a doing - willingly; voluntarily; unforced; of one's own accord.... free will.​

​

In case you will make the argument that the spirit dwelling in a person is what makes their will God's, and therefore their will is not free, I have a question for you...​

Ephesians 4:30 reads... And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.​

How does one grieve the spirit? Isaiah 65:10​

He never answered the question,
We both know what the answer is.

I asked him to point out the noun, but haven't heard from him as yet.
There is no noun in the statement. Free will is an adjective.

This was made clear several times, including in the OP.
The Greek word hekousios - meaning free will, is the neuter of a derivative from hekon; voluntariness -- willingly, which is (an adjective, a primitive term) – properly, willing; "unforced, of one's own will, voluntary" (J. Thayer), i.e. acting on one's own accord. The root (hek-) emphasizes intentional, deliberate action (choice), i.e. "of free-will" (J. Thayer).
Post #69; Post #145; Post #169;

@childeye 2 acknowledged this several times as well.

The definition of freewill in Greek that you have given above is an adjective, not a noun. It describes a certain type of action or choice that is uncoerced/voluntary.

He even admitted to free willed decisions.

The proper way to articulate it is an unforced decision is a free will decision. That's an adjective describing a voluntary decision.

Like I said, it's an adjective meaning voluntary/willing, not a noun.

I believe an attempt at dragging on this debate is being made, although it has been proven very consistently and thoroughly, that humans have free will.
However, I am willing to go the mile, if need be, to establish this truth.

I won't be going through what has already been clearly, and simply stated, but anything that needs clarifying, I will address.
So, to be clear... "free will" in this statement is not a noun, because the noun 'will' has been modified by the adjective 'free', resulting phrase is typically referred to as an adjective phrase or adjectival phrase.
Phrases such as, of one's own accord; of one's own free will; freedom of choice... all fall into this same category.

There really is no need to spend time arguing over words, and doing so while avoiding the topic, or discussion at hand.

 

[CoreyD]

Scripture proves a choice between two trees in Eden. A choice under the law to choose life and live. A choice to count the cost of answering GODS call, again one of life or death. Perhaps this is why many are called but few are chosen. Without free will how would GOD judge us righteously ? Are we condemned to death for reasons we had no part in ? Even though GOD is omniscient this means HE knows all things but HE has not caused all things. Did GOD force Lucifer to rebel ? Did HE force Adam to sin ? Or is it that HE just knew in advance all these things and made them all work together for good in the end ? The father of lies and sin isn’t GOD, it’s Satan . In order for humanity to choose between good and evil the presence of both is required and in this Satan is but a tool GOD uses. In eternity GOD knew before HE created the angels that a third of them would sin against HIM and it would be their free will choice to do so. GOD permitted this angelic sin knowing HE could use these fallen angels in HIS work to make human beings a joint heir with HIS son of all things HE created. GOD has in eternity known all HIS saints even having their names in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world. This HE could do because HE knew who would genuinely repent and submit to HIS will and those who would not. GOD has known the free will choices of humanity but did not make them for humanity. GOD planned out HIS salvation with all this in HIS mind. It is extremely important to GOD that we have free will because HE wants us to love HIM with it.

You are correct that God "has not caused all things"
Since you raised this here, and I believe it can falls in line with the subject matter of free will, I'll like to ask... how is it God knew that his intelligent angels would rebel, but did not know Abraham would sacrifice hid son in obedience to God's command?

 

[CoreyD]

Because Adam wasn’t deceived and Eve was is proof of free will because if there was no free will their response would have been the same. It shows a difference in wills between Adam and Eve. Why is it so difficult to see that both Adam and Eve did not acquire the knowledge of good and evil until Adam ate the forbidden fruit ? In order to sin you must have the knowledge of good and evil and do the evil instead of the good. James 4:17 Adams sin was unique because it determined the course of humanity our sins do not. Today every man dies for his own sin. Adam and Eve at their creation were not innocent of sin because they were righteous but because they were ignorant.

Question here.
Did Adam and Eve know it was a sin against God to take fruit from the tree of good and bad... Did they not know what was good and bad?

 

[CoreyD]

But Eve being deceived was before the Fall. Our state by nature since the Fall has been slavery/bondage to sin. That is why we need the Saviour to grant us freedom:

“34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 “And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 “Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.” (Joh 8:34-36 NKJV)

,,,and now we have that freedom.. so long as we put faith in Christ. Right? Galatians 5:1

 

[CoreyD]

Sin passed to all humanity because of Adam therefore all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of GOD. No human being is without sin. GOD gave us HIS son who was without sin to be the sin offering for us. It is irrelevant and to try to prove or disprove free will with something that scripture already confirms. While we were yet sinners Christ die for us. We then must have faith in this sinless messiah to have the hope of salvation. We can’t will ourselves to not sin, we are sin. GOD is the one who is not willing that any should perish but come to repentance. We have the disease of sin and GOD has the cure.

Let me warn you, that you are going to engage in a fruitless argument that will only wear you out.
It is already clear from scripture that freedom is relative; cleanness is relative; holiness is relative; righteousness is relative.
Engaging in a debate with someone who insists on using the word "complete" to make something real, is no different to engaging in an argument with someone who insists that knowledge must be absolute, for one to have true knowledge... which is an unreasonable argument.

The argument that freedom must be "complete" for it be real freedom, is no different... either scripturally, or otherwise.
God's people have true freedom. Galatians 5:1
As you know, humans have free will too.
Don't get carried away by the "complete" argument.
No fruit will come from it.

 

[childeye 2]

Where is the noun,

Here is the term "will" as a noun in the Op underscored in bold:

"The Bible says Adam was not deceived.

Thus, Adam acted on his own free will".

and does this mean you are finished with the discussion and want to spend the remainder of time arguing about a word?
It's better to address the question of whether or not God gave man free will.

You don't seem inclined to acknowledge that without a coherent/consistent meaning of "free" (an adjective) and "will" (a noun), we can't address the question of whether God gave us a free will in the moral immoral context.

Why “Choice” Is a Misinterpretation of "will"​

• The Greek word thelēma (will) = “what one wishes, desires, intends.”
• The Hebrew word ratson (will) = “delight, pleasure, favor.”
• Neither word carries the meaning of a neutral “power of choice.”
• Translating will as “choice” shifts the meaning from desire shaped by truth or lies to autonomous decision-making, which Scripture never teaches.

Hence the only coherent meaning of a free will in scripture in the moral/immoral context is the will free from sin. Free means free from lies that create desires that lead to sin, and will means desire/intent.

​

• John 8:44: “Your will is to do your father’s desires.” → Will = desire shaped by deception.
• James 1:14: “Each person is tempted when enticed by his own desire.” → Will = desire.
• John 8:32: “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” → Free = liberation from lies.
• Leviticus 1:3; 2 Cor 9:7; Philemon 1:14: offerings given “willingly.” → Free = voluntary/unforced.

Contrast with OP Commentary​

• Shift in Will
  • Scripture: desire/intent. (moral/immoral context).
  • OP: choice/autonomy. (neutral context).
  • Example: Adam’s “will” (1 Tim 2:14) is interpreted as “free choice,” while Eve’s is left as “desire.”
• Shift in Free
  • Scripture: free from lies (John 8:32) or voluntary/unforced (offerings).
  • OP: neutral autonomy (“free will” = independent choice).
  • Example: offerings “willingly” (voluntary) are reframed as proof of autonomous free will.

Consequence of the Shift​

By changing will from desire → choice, the OP sets up a strawman argument:​

• By changing will from desire → choice, the OP imports a philosophical definition not found in Scripture.
• By changing free from free from lies/voluntary → autonomy, the OP redefines biblical freedom into philosophical independence.
• This creates a misinterpretation: Scripture speaks of desires enslaved or liberated by truth, while the commentary reframes it as autonomous decision-making power.

By changing free from free from lies/voluntary → autonomy, the OP further strengthens the strawman, making it seem as if Scripture teaches philosophical independence when it actually teaches liberation from deception.

Summary​

• Biblical “will” = desire/intent.
• Biblical “free” = free from lies or voluntary/unforced.
• OP Commentary = choice/autonomy + neutral independence.
• Result: The OP changes the meaning of both terms, creating a strawman argument that Scripture teaches “free will” as autonomous choice, when in fact it speaks of desires enslaved or freed by truth.

 

[CoreyD]

Here is the term "will" as a noun in the Op underscored in bold:

"The Bible says Adam was not deceived.

Thus, Adam acted on his own free will".



You don't seem inclined to acknowledge that without a coherent/consistent meaning of "free" (an adjective) and "will" (a noun), we can't address the question of whether God gave us a free will.

Why “Choice” Is a Misinterpretation of "will"​

• The Greek word thelēma (will) = “what one wishes, desires, intends.”
• The Hebrew word ratson (will) = “delight, pleasure, favor.”
• Neither word carries the meaning of a neutral “power of choice.”
• Translating will as “choice” shifts the meaning from desire shaped by truth or lies to autonomous decision-making, which Scripture never teaches.

Hence the only coherent meaning of a free will in scripture in the moral/immoral context is the will free from sin. Free means free from lies that create desires that lead to sin, and will means desire/intent.

​

• John 8:44: “Your will is to do your father’s desires.” → Will = desire shaped by deception.
• James 1:14: “Each person is tempted when enticed by his own desire.” → Will = desire.
• John 8:32: “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” → Free = liberation from lies.
• Leviticus 1:3; 2 Cor 9:7; Philemon 1:14: offerings given “willingly.” → Free = voluntary/unforced.

Contrast with OP Commentary​

• Shift in Will
  • Scripture: desire/intent.
  • OP: choice/autonomy.
  • Example: Adam’s “will” (1 Tim 2:14) is interpreted as “free choice,” while Eve’s is left as “desire.”
• Shift in Free
  • Scripture: free from lies (John 8:32) or voluntary/unforced (offerings).
  • OP: neutral autonomy (“free will” = independent choice).
  • Example: offerings “willingly” (voluntary) are reframed as proof of autonomous free will.

Consequence of the Shift​

• By changing will from desire → choice, the OP imports a philosophical definition not found in Scripture.
• By changing free from free from lies/voluntary → autonomy, the OP redefines biblical freedom into philosophical independence.
• This creates a misinterpretation: Scripture speaks of desires enslaved or liberated by truth, while the commentary reframes it as autonomous decision-making power.

Summary​

• Biblical “will” = desire/intent.
• Biblical “free” = free from lies or voluntary/unforced.
• OP Commentary = choice/autonomy + neutral independence.
• Result: The OP changes the meaning of both terms to argue for philosophical “free will,” which is not the same as the biblical usage.

We have been through this, and I have clarified what exactly free will is.
I cannot change your mindset, from the direction you want to go.

 

[Clare73]

Are you saying you want to debate against the pragmatic claim that God is not a liar?

So, I take it that's a yes?

So you get to go first in your refutation of "God is not a liar."

 

[Clare73]

Because Adam wasn’t deceived and Eve was is proof of free will

Yes, Adam and Eve had free will before the fall.
They lost it in the fall and became slaves to sin (Jn 8:34).
Slaves to sin do not have the free will to be sinless.

 

[childeye 2]

So you get to go first in your refutation of "God is not a liar."

I already said that pragmatics denote that God is not a liar here --> childeye 2 said: The topic is free will. God is Truth. According to pragmatics going against God/Truth must involve believing in something not true.

 

[Clare73]

Sin passed to all humanity because of Adam therefore all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of GOD. No human being is without sin. GOD gave us HIS son who was without sin to be the sin offering for us. It is irrelevant and to try to prove or disprove free will with something that scripture already confirms.

Where does Scripture state that man has "free will"?
"Free will" is not even in Scripture.
That's a human notion, not a Biblical notion.

Scripture already confirms that the unregeneerte are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34).
Slaves to sin are not morally free.

 

[Clare73]

I already said that pragmatics denote that God is not a liar here --> childeye 2 said: The topic is free will. God is Truth. According to pragmatics going against God/Truth must involve believing in something not true.

Not a refutation of "God is not a liar" (post #190).