Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[sovereigngrace]

The Kingdom of God is not the Kingdom of Israel nor any other singular nation.

Seek you first the Kingdom of God.... Matthew 6:33.

Can you answer these simple questions?

1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?

 

[Brother Del]

I watched the first part of what is apparently a three part debate yesterday evening. I hope to find the time to watch part two later today.

I only recently discovered Brother Steve Gregg, from what I've seen so far, he is one of the most well grounded, humble, and adept expositors of Gods Holy Word to be found online.

Dr. Mike Brown is a very well known and well thought of expositor in his own right.

Whichever side of this great eschatological divide you may find yourself on, the debate was cordial, and has been well worth watching thus far.

 

[Brother Del]

Can you answer these simple questions?

1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?

I'll take a shot at this one.

Questions 1-5
Both spiritual and ethnic.

Question 6
Spiritual

 

[sovereigngrace]

The text does not say that the good olive tree is Israel.

The good olive tree is people who believe God and are saved. Not any particular nation.

Paul gives us some interesting thoughts on it in Romans 11:17-24, speaking to the Roman Christians (who were overwhelmingly Gentiles): “thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them, partakest of the root and fatness [or oiliness] of the olive tree. Boast not against the branches (Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root [Jesus], but the root [Jesus] thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches [Israel] were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

Paul uses the image of “the olive tree” in Romans 11 to show that Gentiles have become part of true Israel. His olive tree analogy is deliberate and unambiguous. He takes this imagery from the prophets who likened Israel to an olive tree in Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10 and 14:6-7.

This text very clearly and indisputably depicts the good olive tree as an Israeli tree. Speaking about Israelites, the texts speaks about “the natural branches” (Romans 11:21 and 24) being “graffed into “their own olive tree” (Romans 11:24). This is unquestionably an Israeli tree. There is no way it is merely an ethnic racial Israeli tree. Why would God graft us into an natural Christ-rejecting Israel? He would not! Such a thought would be ridiculous. We are grafted into believing Israel – true Isreal, the “remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5), “his people which he foreknew” (Romans 11:2), “the children of promise” (Galatians 4:28) or the “children … of the free (Galatians 4:31).”

Jews and Gentiles today are grafted into this spiritual Israeli tree by faith in Christ – who is ultimately true Israel. The New Testament Church today being one with Christ is therefore also true Israel. They have been integrated into believing Israel and have been enjoined to all the elect of the Old Testament era. As a prince they have indeed spiritual power with God and with men, and have prevailed. So, God does not have a separate plan for national Israel outside of the Church. Every Jew and Gentile who trusts in the Lord Jesus are God’s elect or faithful Israel.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I'll take a shot at this one.

Questions 1-5
Both spiritual and ethnic.

Question 6
Spiritual

Oh! Really? We are now ethnic Israel? Wow! Never heard that before. Strange belief.

 

[Brother Del]

Oh! Really? We are now ethnic Israel? Wow! Never heard that before. Strange belief.

You asked for simple answers, I did my best.

Its only a strange belief if one has allowed themselves to be tethered to a single side of the issue.

Satan loves this or that questions which keep the children of God, and would be children of God alike, in constant conflict and turmoil. As is evidenced so clearly in these forums.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You asked for simple answers, I did my best.

Its only a strange belief if one has allowed themselves to be tethered to a single side of the issue.

Satan loves this or that questions which keep the children of God, and would be children of God alike, in constant conflict and turmoil. As is evidenced so clearly in these forums.

So,

1. How can ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel be partakers of the good olive tree (Romans 11) when it is a believing tree? Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
2. How can the "citizenship of Israel" in Ephesians 2 relate to ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel when its citizens are brought in exclusively through the blood of Christ to that privileged place? Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
3. How can ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel be partakers of "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6:15-16 when it relates to those who are “a new creature” in Christ? Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
4. How can ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel constitute "the circumcision" in Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11 when this is a spiritual title? Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
5. How can ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel be seen as "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29 when Jesus told the Christ-rejecting Jews: "Ye are of your father the devil" (John 8:44). Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
6. I agree with this one. We the Church alone reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10.

 

[Guojing]

The text does not say that the good olive tree is Israel.

The good olive tree is people who believe God and are saved. Not any particular nation.

I think the part where Paul was describing gentiles in Romans 11:13-24, he was describing gentiles, not in the "but now" but rather in the "age to come".

In the "but now" time period, which is today, we are saved thru faith alone without works by being in the Body of Christ, thus we cannot be cut off after, nor do we need to be part of Israel to be saved.

In the "age to come", gentiles will once again need to be saved by being part of Israel, the olive tree, so it will once again requires faith and works, so not doing works will result in being cut off.

So based on this reasoning, the olive tree can indeed represent true Israel, which is not us the Body of Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I think the part where Paul was describing gentiles in Romans 11:13-24, he was describing gentiles, not in the "but now" but rather in the "age to come".

In the "but now" time period, which is today, we are saved thru faith alone without works by being in the Body of Christ, thus we cannot be cut off after, nor do we need to be part of Israel to be saved.

In the "age to come", gentiles will once again need to be saved by being part of Israel, the olive tree, so it will once again requires faith and works, so not doing works will result in being cut off.

So based on this reasoning, the olive tree can indeed represent true Israel, which is not us the Body of Christ.

LOL. Just change the Bible to suit your false teaching. This is another reason to reject Pretrib and Premil.

 

[keras]

True Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Christian Church.

Israel survived in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. True believers in God always was the covenanted Israel, the faithful Christian peoples continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

 

[Guojing]

LOL. Just change the Bible to suit your false teaching. This is another reason to reject Pretrib and Premil.

I was supporting your point that the olive tree refers to true Israel