Can democratic Socialism save America?

[Yarddog]

Explain how that is the case especially communism.

I'm surprised you didn't say, dictatorship. I was wrong about this one. The Constitution doesn't support an authoritarian government but Communism isn't necessarily authoritarian.

Then those who want that life style are free to move there.

And they are free to stay here and work to make it better for the people, which the Constitution supports.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. What is currently being proposed in this country as democratic socialism or what ever variation of that is not compatible with the preamble as you claim. “the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity” is not in the future promoted by the likes of Bernie, Mamdani, Omar, Cortez and many others .

That is incorrect. What they propose is exactly what this calls for.

I don't support Democratic Socialism because what most call for is eventually achievement of economic socialism. But, Social Democracy does not.

 

[Yarddog]

Socialism is yet to work anywhere.

Depends on what type of Socialism.

At the end of the day it’s just about using someone else’s money and that is always bound to run out. Even Scandinavian countries that claim democratic socialism are highly capitalistic.

Most of these countries are really Social Democracies.

 

[Fervent]

promote the general Welfare,

what do you suppose this means?

 

[Yarddog]

what do you suppose this means?

It's a socialist concept.

 

[Hentenza]

Depends on what type of Socialism.

Which one has worked?

Most of these countries are really Social Democracies.

I agree.

 

[Yarddog]

Which one has worked?

Social Democracy

I agree.

. The US is really already a Social Democracy "lite".
AI generated:
Social democracy is a political ideology and economic system that blends a capitalist market economy with a strong social safety net and government regulation. It seeks to balance individual liberty with social justice, aiming to achieve this by using democratic and lawful means to create a more equitable society through public services like universal healthcare and education, and through regulations that ensure fair pay and worker protections.

 

[RDKirk]

But they identify as socialist. Look it up.

So? North Korea identifies as a democratic republic. Look it up.

 

[Hentenza]

Social Democracy

I don’t consider Nordic states like Sweden to represent socialism since the government does not own the means of production. So my question still stands. Has socialism worked anywhere?

. The US is really already a Social Democracy "lite".
AI generated:
Social democracy is a political ideology and economic system that blends a capitalist market economy with a strong social safety net and government regulation. It seeks to balance individual liberty with social justice, aiming to achieve this by using democratic and lawful means to create a more equitable society through public services like universal healthcare and education, and through regulations that ensure fair pay and worker protections.

I agree. But I think that even the Nordic states that are under a social democracy have issues that are progressively getting worse. As an example here an AI response to the problems affecting Sweden.

AI Overview




Major problems with social democracy in Sweden in recent decades include a
rapid rise in inequality, the erosion of the traditional welfare state, and significant political fragmentation, including the rise of the far-right Sweden Democrats.

Economic Challenges

• Rising Inequality: Sweden has become one of the most unequal countries in the OECD in terms of wealth distribution, with the number of billionaires per capita exceeding even the United States. This trend is attributed to tax policies that favor capital income over labor income and a shift towards the "knowledge economy".
• Weakening Worker Power: The decline of union strength and collective bargaining has worsened conditions for the working class, leading to an increase in temporary employment (which disproportionately affects low-skill workers) and a stagnation or decline in real wages for poorer households.
• Welfare State Strain: The financial basis of the welfare state has been eroded by numerous tax cuts and demographic changes. This has resulted in a pressured healthcare system, concerns about the quality and profit margins of privatized social care companies, and a general challenge to the performance of public services.

Political and Social Challenges

• Abandonment of the Working Class: The Social Democratic Party (SAP) shifted its focus to the middle class and adopted neoliberal policies after losing elections in the mid-2200s (mid-2000s). This alienated a large part of its traditional working-class base, whose support for the party dropped significantly.
• Rise of the Far-Right: The Sweden Democrats (SD), a far-right populist party with an anti-immigrant agenda, have seen their support surge, becoming the second-largest party in the Swedish Parliament in the 2022 election. Their rise has been fueled by concerns over immigration, integration challenges, and a feeling among some voters of being left behind by traditional parties.
• Political Instability: The rise of the SD and the fragmentation of the political landscape have made inter-party collaboration difficult, challenging Sweden's historical consensus-oriented decision-making model and leading to weak minority governments.
• Integration Issues and Gang Violence: Sweden has faced challenges with the integration of a high number of immigrants, which has been linked to socioeconomic problems and a significant increase in gang violence in some urban areas.

These issues indicate a significant shift from Sweden's post-war "golden era" of social democracy, pointing to a range of complex, interconnected problems that challenge the long-standing model.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm surprised you didn't say, dictatorship. I was wrong about this one. The Constitution doesn't support an authoritarian government but Communism isn't necessarily authoritarian.

You can utter those words, but there is no way for Communism to work except under an authoritarian government.

Human beings don't share naturally. Some will hoard their benefits, others will slack off (hoarding their labor).

And human beings will always become envious of others they perceive as being "better off" in any way.

A classless society is impossible, given human nature. During slavery in the US, slaves perceived a "class difference" of house slaves and field slaves, even though they were all slaves.

The only way you keep that controlled in a Communist economy is by an authoritarian government.

 

[RDKirk]

I don’t consider Nordic states like Sweden to represent socialism since the government does not own the means of production. So my question still stands. Has socialism worked anywhere?

I agree. But I think that even the Nordic states that are under a social democracy have issues that are progressively getting worse. As an example here an AI response to the problems affecting Sweden.

AI Overview




Major problems with social democracy in Sweden in recent decades include a
rapid rise in inequality, the erosion of the traditional welfare state, and significant political fragmentation, including the rise of the far-right Sweden Democrats.

Economic Challenges

• Rising Inequality: Sweden has become one of the most unequal countries in the OECD in terms of wealth distribution, with the number of billionaires per capita exceeding even the United States. This trend is attributed to tax policies that favor capital income over labor income and a shift towards the "knowledge economy".
• Weakening Worker Power: The decline of union strength and collective bargaining has worsened conditions for the working class, leading to an increase in temporary employment (which disproportionately affects low-skill workers) and a stagnation or decline in real wages for poorer households.
• Welfare State Strain: The financial basis of the welfare state has been eroded by numerous tax cuts and demographic changes. This has resulted in a pressured healthcare system, concerns about the quality and profit margins of privatized social care companies, and a general challenge to the performance of public services.

Political and Social Challenges

• Abandonment of the Working Class: The Social Democratic Party (SAP) shifted its focus to the middle class and adopted neoliberal policies after losing elections in the mid-2200s (mid-2000s). This alienated a large part of its traditional working-class base, whose support for the party dropped significantly.
• Rise of the Far-Right: The Sweden Democrats (SD), a far-right populist party with an anti-immigrant agenda, have seen their support surge, becoming the second-largest party in the Swedish Parliament in the 2022 election. Their rise has been fueled by concerns over immigration, integration challenges, and a feeling among some voters of being left behind by traditional parties.
• Political Instability: The rise of the SD and the fragmentation of the political landscape have made inter-party collaboration difficult, challenging Sweden's historical consensus-oriented decision-making model and leading to weak minority governments.
• Integration Issues and Gang Violence: Sweden has faced challenges with the integration of a high number of immigrants, which has been linked to socioeconomic problems and a significant increase in gang violence in some urban areas.

These issues indicate a significant shift from Sweden's post-war "golden era" of social democracy, pointing to a range of complex, interconnected problems that challenge the long-standing model.

So, what is your answer, or who do you think has the answer?

 

[Yarddog]

I agree. But I think that even the Nordic states that are under a social democracy have issues that are progressively getting worse.

Well, a survey to find the 5 happiest countries in the world shows that the top four are Nordic states. The US comes in at 22.

 

[Yarddog]

You can utter those words, but there is no way for Communism to work except under an authoritarian government.

Yes, that is what most expects agree on but some Social Libertarians say that it can. But, we haven't seen one try that. Corruption always rears its ugly head and destroys the good.

 

[Hentenza]

So, what is your answer, or who do you think has the answer?

I see you don’t have an answer either. From my perspective I don’t recall socialism ever working for long.

 

[Hentenza]

Well, a survey to find the 5 happiest countries in the world shows that the top four are Nordic states. The US comes in at 22.

I have seen the surveys and I agree which is why I don’t consider Nordic countries to be socialism at all. Social democracies work for a bit also but you read the disadvantages that I posted in my post 28.

 

[jacorian]

Socialism has never worked & for people today thinking they can some how make it work because they are so emotional for it is bunk. They have not read Friedman or Sowell. The celebratory concept of the American founding fathers is that it values natural rights which come from God & it values the individual. Socialism involves govt management of the means of production & when have you ever seen govt manage anything well. we just got thru a shutdown. Congress is concerned mostly with pet projects & setting up things for friends. They come out as millionaires. Their pursuit of power can be summarized with this concept: these clowns have some insecurity in themselves that they seek validation in order to be canonized as benevolent souls. All they do is rig deals & swap money from one sector to another. Human beings are too selfish to think they will be good & neighborly.