Can Truth Be Known? How

[CoreyD]

Yes because that is a condensed answer.

Then how bout expand on it and clarify instead of just making this statement? Because if I clearly misunderstood your question, it's not like I just didn't answer you. You may be tired by people giving you different answers but you could have explained your question. This is literally the entire point of following Christ because there is only 1 truth and when you get 50 other different answers, and you're relying on someone else giving you the information, that isn't going to guide you to the answer that's only going to increase confusion. In my personal opinion, you can disregard every single thing I say and everyone else. Ignore everyone and pray and ask God to guide you. Open up your bible and figure it out while you pretend to live on an island. I have seen God work time and time again this way. He shows up for people. It's a proven fact.

You're being pedantic. There is no first, second or 3rd step to putting God first, it literally just IS putting God first. Either he's first, or he isn't. If God said to you, "hey leave your job" do you tell him no because "what about my wife? I will stay for her", well that's not putting God first is it? It is a black or white scenario, either you put him first, or you don't.

So, you tell someone they need to put God first in their life, and they ask "how do I do that?" You tell them, "there is no how. Just put God first/"

The Gift of prophecy is still around as there isn't a single verse that says it was done away with and Paul still lists it among the spiritual gifts. Prophecy isn't just fortelling the future, it is being a spokesperson for God. This is why in instruction to the church, Paul says if you Prophesy, do it one at a time (1 Corinthians 14:31) so that "everyone may be instructed and encouraged." The very last 2 prophets are the two witnesses in Revelation which is in the future.

Did you say ptophesying?
Delvianna said:

God leads/guides in several different ways. Thoughts/impressions/dreams/inspiration/ and other people.​

I did not see it;

The armor of God that Paul explains in Ephesians 6. Since this was a metaphor to help people against spiritual warfare, it can absolutely be applied to testing the spirits since that in essence IS spiritual warfare. Explaining the entire metaphor and giving a breakdown of the armor of God is a whole lesson by itself and incorporates a lot, so I'm just going to leave my answer summed up to this.

Apparently you do not understand that U am not referring to people who have the truth already.

The bible doesn't spell out how he does it, just that he does. I can give you my personal experience but if you aren't interested in hearing opinions, then it doesn't matter.

Throughout the Bible it is demonstrated how Hod leads and guides.
Right, I'm not interested in opinions, thanks.

No, I'm viewing this on a personal level. Either you want to view this as a whole, or view this on a personal level. The answer differs between the two. So you as a person, when God lead and directs you, you can get stuff wrong along the way because you can misunderstand what he's trying to teach you, you can misinterpret a scripture he shows you, you can come to the wrong conclusion that he's trying to teach you. But eventually, with God's correction and guidance, you can get to truth. That's what I mean.

In other words, "I am ambassadors for Christ, as though God is beseeching through us. I implore on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God."
So God selects individuals and rather than Christ lead them into one pen, he leads them to individual pens with a multiplicity of various conflicting doctrines?
That's not what the Bible says, does it. 1 Corinthians 1:10

By what I stated earlier : Thoughts/impressions/dreams/inspiration/ and other people.

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:1, 2​

Also consider that we have a lot of apostasy in the church due to the age that we live in. We cannot rely on someone to preach to us and tell us the truth when there is a massive apostasy problem. Christ warned that in the last days there would be a great falling away from truth, and that has 100% happened. So the answers I'm giving you circumvent that problem. We have but ONE teacher (Matthew 23:8) and you can put your entire faith and trust in that Teacher, Jesus to get you to know what he wants you to know. He is our high priest forever and it's the high priests duty to teach and guide. (Hebrews 4:14)

You don't agree with Matthew 24:; Matthew 28:18-20; Romans 10:13-15, and other scriptures such as those then, which says that Jesus followers are the ones that will be carrying this good news to the world before the end comes, and Jesus will be guiding these?

 

[Delvianna]

So, you tell someone they need to put God first in their life, and they ask "how do I do that?" You tell them, "there is no how. Just put God first/"

If someone said to you, "put your wife first before your kids" do you ask them how to do that or do you understand what they're saying? This is why I said pedantic. "Put God first" is self explanatory. If you're trying to find some deeper or hidden understanding, there isn't one. It just means what it says.

Did you say ptophesying?

I said people, you asked for evidence, that is my evidence as an example. People incorporates more than just prophecy, but you wanted proof, so that is proof.

Apparently you do not understand that U am not referring to people who have the truth already.

You asked me: "Can you please give a scriptural reference or quotation, in support of this?"
That is my support which incorporates people who are following Christ. Knowledge of truth is something you add onto, not something you instantly acquire and know every single thing right off the bat. Are you actually following the conversation here or are you just replying to reply?

In other words, "I am ambassadors for Christ, as though God is beseeching through us. I implore on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God."
So God selects individuals and rather than Christ lead them into one pen, he leads them to individual pens with a multiplicity of various conflicting doctrines?
That's not what the Bible says, does it. 1 Corinthians 1:10

You said:
"I just want to be clear.
So, are you saying that no one has truth today?"
And I clarified and said I was talking singly not in a wider group and you literally just go back to your point talking about a wider group and claim I meant something that wasn't even on topic. Again, can you follow this conversation and not just auto reply because this is getting frustrating when I have to go back and quote what you previously said to defend my response.

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:1, 2​

You said: "Yes. How do they hear, listen, and follow?"

And I replied and everything under that response ties into the point as to why this verse doesn't apply in the context of what I'm saying.

You don't agree with Matthew 24:; Matthew 28:18-20; Romans 10:13-15, and other scriptures such as those then, which says that Jesus followers are the ones that will be carrying this good news to the world before the end comes, and Jesus will be guiding these?

Jesus's followers share the gospel, but that doesn't negate what he said about what happens during the end times, which we are in. Christs true followers are small, apostasy is rampant. People like to think that every single person who claims the name of Christ automatically means they are his sheep and we know from scripture that is not the case. If you want to learn the truth, Learn it from Christ himself.

And now, I'm going to bow out of this conversation because it's not fruitful and actually is quite irritating when you can't follow the thread and are being patronizing, and I'm tired of it. So God bless and I pray you get the answers you're looking for.

 

[timothyu]

"Put God first"

His will before ours

 

[Delvianna]

His will before ours

Amen.

 

[timothyu]

Amen.

Amazing how many don't know what that will is.

 

[CoreyD]

If someone said to you, "put your wife first before your kids" do you ask them how to do that or do you understand what they're saying? This is why I said pedantic. "Put God first" is self explanatory. If you're trying to find some deeper or hidden understanding, there isn't one. It just means what it says.

If your husband told you to rev the engine from the engine, do you know how?
Not everyone does... that's the reason they ask.

I said people, you asked for evidence, that is my evidence as an example. People incorporates more than just prophecy, but you wanted proof, so that is proof.

Prophesying is the same as preaching a message.
So, you agree with me then.
Jesus sent many people to prophecy. Acts 13:1-5

You asked me: "Can you please give a scriptural reference or quotation, in support of this?"
That is my support which incorporates people who are following Christ. Knowledge of truth is something you add onto, not something you instantly acquire and know every single thing right off the bat. Are you actually following the conversation here or are you just replying to reply?

Perhaps I am not following you, since you haven't told me how people who aren't following Christ get to that point.

You said:
"I just want to be clear.
So, are you saying that no one has truth today?"
And I clarified and said I was talking singly not in a wider group and you literally just go back to your point talking about a wider group and claim I meant something that wasn't even on topic. Again, can you follow this conversation and not just auto reply because this is getting frustrating when I have to go back and quote what you previously said to defend my response.

It's hard to follow answers that are kind of vague, and doesn't clarify things for me. Sorry.
No worries though. It's okay.

You said: "Yes. How do they hear, listen, and follow?"

And I replied and everything under that response ties into the point as to why this verse doesn't apply in the context of what I'm saying.

See what I mean? You probably don't. That's okay.

Jesus's followers share the gospel, but that doesn't negate what he said about what happens during the end times, which we are in. Christs true followers are small, apostasy is rampant. People like to think that every single person who claims the name of Christ automatically means they are his sheep and we know from scripture that is not the case. If you want to learn the truth, Learn it from Christ himself.

That's clear. Thank you.

And now, I'm going to bow out of this conversation because it's not fruitful and actually is quite irritating when you can't follow the thread and are being patronizing, and I'm tired of it. So God bless and I pray you get the answers you're looking for.

Thank you. Goodbye.

 

[ARBITER01]

Are you saying that if I am an atheist, or I worship a number of gods, and I am looking for the truth, God will give me a revelation through holy spirit, and I will know the truth?

"Many philosophers debate for centuries, and never come to a conclusion.
As a Christian, how does one determine what is truth?
Is it by consulting what people says... be it there may be a multiplicity of opinions, ideas, interpretations, and the like?

How did early Christians view finding the truth?
How would Jesus establish truth?"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

"Many philosophers debate for centuries, and never come to a conclusion.
As a Christian, how does one determine what is truth?
Is it by consulting what people says... be it there may be a multiplicity of opinions, ideas, interpretations, and the like?

How did early Christians view finding the truth?
How would Jesus establish truth?"

It partially IS by consulting what people say. The trick, though, is that whichever critical thinking skills are involved, or whatever epistemological framework is being assumed, ultimately "faith comes by hearing" rather than solely by being filled with some indiscernible magical feeling that one has "the Truth." And that hearing has to be caused by the voice [or the writing] of another Christian.

 

[ARBITER01]

It partially IS by consulting what people say. The trick, though, is that whichever critical thinking skills are involved, or whatever epistemological framework is being assumed, ultimately "faith comes by hearing" rather than solely by being filled with some indiscernible magical feeling that one has "the Truth." And that hearing has to be caused by the voice [or the writing] of another Christian.

I'm perfectly fine with you placing your trust in other people.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm perfectly fine with you placing your trust in other people.

I'm glad you are.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm glad you are.

Then you should be perfectly fine with me relying entirely upon GOD for truth instead of other people.

 

[CoreyD]

"Many philosophers debate for centuries, and never come to a conclusion.
As a Christian, how does one determine what is truth?
Is it by consulting what people says... be it there may be a multiplicity of opinions, ideas, interpretations, and the like?

How did early Christians view finding the truth?
How would Jesus establish truth?"

I'm sorry you were misled by one statement.

The title is Can Truth Be Known? How
The subject matter is what many philosophers debate for centuries, and never come to a conclusion.... which is, Can Truth Be Known? How
The question - As a Christian, how does one determine what is truth? is to hear from all who identify as Christian, how they would answer the question.
The body of the OP does not focus on a Christian having the truth, but rather, persons who did not have the truth, finding it... and how.

I hope that clears things up for you.

 

[concretecamper]

Yes, it's 18, sorry.
So, in Acts 17:11, 12 those Bereans who examine the scriptures, and were able to identify the truth, because of seeing it for themselves, did not have an objective way of knowing the truth... you think it was subjective?
You don't think the truth can be acquired that way?

Would that view not make Hebrews 4:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 2 Peter 1:21 and all the scriptures invalid?

I think the fact that the Bereans examined the OT points to the fact that they were willing to hear Paul, but wanted to verify. That's a good thing compared to those who rejected Paul.

What is subjective about

"That is the key. Being able to examine the scriptures, and know the ring of truth, because of seeing it."

isn't Scripture itself, but each one of our interpretation. I can read Scripture and something can ring true to me while it is utterly false to you, and visa versa.

Scripture isn't subjective, it is objective truth. But what is subjective, the the many different way people interpret the same scripture passages.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm sorry you were misled by one statement.

The title is Can Truth Be Known? How
The subject matter is what many philosophers debate for centuries, and never come to a conclusion.... which is, Can Truth Be Known? How
The question - As a Christian, how does one determine what is truth? is to hear from all who identify as Christian, how they would answer the question.
The body of the OP does not focus on a Christian having the truth, but rather, persons who did not have the truth, finding it... and how.

I hope that clears things up for you.

Not really, but let's run with it.

Non-believers are not really able to know truth without trial and error, and that is no guarantee of them knowing it without talking themselves right back out of it.

 

[CoreyD]

It partially IS by consulting what people say. The trick, though, is that whichever critical thinking skills are involved, or whatever epistemological framework is being assumed, ultimately "faith comes by hearing" rather than solely by being filled with some indiscernible magical feeling that one has "the Truth." And that hearing has to be caused by the voice [or the writing] of another Christian.

Thank you. That's a great scriptural reference - Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God..
That's how it has been for centuries, from Moses, until now.

It doesn't look like the Bible is being consulted on that, though.
Feelings take president more these days.

One person said to me...

Christs true followers are small, apostasy is rampant. People like to think that every single person who claims the name of Christ automatically means they are his sheep and we know from scripture that is not the case.

Yet, they follow up with...

If you want to learn the truth, Learn it from Christ himself.

The scriptures repeatedly say that listening to Jesus involves listening to his followers. Mark 6:11; 1 John 4:6

We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.​

Christ ordered them to preach. Acts 10:42 The reason is given in the scriptures. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4; Matthew 7:21-23
Yet as you said, and this is very much evident, "being filled with some indiscernible magical feeling that one has "the Truth."" is the backbone of most of the responses here.

 

[CoreyD]

I think the fact that the Bereans examined the OT points to the fact that they were willing to hear Paul, but wanted to verify. That's a good thing compared to those who rejected Paul.

A lot of persons are unaware that Luke's writing of Acts was later than Matthew's Gospel.
The scriptures may thus have included references to the Gospel of Matthew.
However, the important thing is, the explaining of scripture proved to be a guide that persons could verify from the scriptures that were available.

Since we have both the complete "OT" and "NT", everyone has something objectives to verify what they hear.
Act 8:26-40 is another example of how Jesus reveals the truth to those seeking it.

isn't Scripture itself, but each one of our interpretation. I can read Scripture and something can ring true to me while it is utterly false to you, and visa versa.

That's not what the "ring of truth" is.
A bell in one's ears is not the ring of truth.
When you were at school, or you heard the church bell ring, you didn't mistake it for the fire engine
The ring of truth is the truth being sounded from God's word. Once one hears it, like the Bereans, they respond to it because it's the truth.
It's not an interpretation.

The ring of the school bell; the ring of the church bell; the ring of truth... they are distinct.

Scripture isn't subjective, it is objective truth. But what is subjective, the the many different way people interpret the same scripture passages.

Fair enough. Thank you.
So, one can distinguish the ring of truth from an annoying sound.

 

[concretecamper]

So, one can distinguish the ring of truth from an annoying sound.

Not really. What rings true to you may be an annoying sound to me, and visa versa.

Personal interpretation of Scripture is by definition subjective.

 

[CoreyD]

Not really, but let's run with it.

Non-believers are not really able to know truth without trial and error, and that is no guarantee of them knowing it without talking themselves right back out of it.

Trial ad error sounds like the person that doesn't know right from wrong, and tries something to see the result.
Not everyone follows that unwise course.

Some people ask questions, and listen to the answers Then they try to verify what answers are the best, by consulting a reliable source... in this case, the Bible.
That way, they don't rely on trial and error.

It's true that sometimes one may take a wrong path, because of the confusion that surrounds them, but is that trial and error? Not really, no. Jesus's disciples were with him, but the confusion that existed in their time affected their understanding on occasion.

Being taught by the right persons removes the danger of trial and error. Acts 8:26-40

 

[CoreyD]

Not really. What rings true to you may be an annoying sound to me, and visa versa.

Personal interpretation of Scripture is by definition subjective.

That not the ring of truth and I did not have that in mind.
If you want it to be, you aren't listening to me, so take care.

 

[ARBITER01]

Trial ad error sounds like the person that doesn't know right from wrong, and tries something to see the result.
Not everyone follows that unwise course.

Some people ask questions, and listen to the answers Then they try to verify what answers are the best, by consulting a reliable source... in this case, the Bible.
That way, they don't rely on trial and error.

It's true that sometimes one may take a wrong path, because of the confusion that surrounds them, but is that trial and error? Not really, no. Jesus's disciples were with him, but the confusion that existed in their time affected their understanding on occasion.

Being taught by the right persons removes the danger of trial and error. Acts 8:26-40

The bible is only as good as our relationship with Jesus is.

It seems you are moving the goalposts somewhat. Unbelievers are unable to know truth apart from GOD revealing it to them. Same way with believers.

I have no need for an argument on here anymore, good day.