Can Truth Be Known? How

[CoreyD]

How do I determine "truth"?

............... the truth is, I don't determine it. Rather, what I do is gather and analyze various evidences regarding the Reality which God has placed me in, and I do my best to make rational sense of it all, both historically and prayerfully, like St. Luke did.

Thank you.
Does your investigation include the Bible, foremost when it comes to the truth about God, Jesus Christ, life, death... etc.?

 

[CoreyD]

So we are to obey all his Levitical commandments?

Clare... Please don't turn the thread into a debate about the ten commandments.
If anyone attempts to do that, please refrain, and focus on the OP. Thanks.

 

[CoreyD]

Humans lack the ability to access truth directly. More often they acquire truth indirectly.

In terms of truth, there are roughly two camps of humans, one with extrememly small amount while the other the mass majority.
When you trust your own five senses, you joined the first camp of humans deemed as the eyewitnesses. When you are unable (as limited by human inability) to contact truth directly. You joined the second camp of humans deemed as the believers.

Even science works so. Do you know that black holes exist? You do. Do you have the evidence? You don't. Information (truth) functions as a piece of human testimony from eyewitnesses which we call them the scientists. There could less than 100 such scientists dedicated and specialized in researching black holes, versus the 8 billion humans on earth. That is to say, the 8 billioin humans need to put faith in the 100 scientists to indirectly get to such a piece of truth. That's how reality works.

Now how do we know the the truth of black hole with its characteristics are truly from scientists other than swallowing with faith? Subconsciously we rely on evaluating the legitimacy of what this piece of testimony is conveyed. From the authorities behind the testimony who authenticate the information, and from the consistency of how information are conveyed (if I said the in center of a black hole, there's a large stone, you shall not believe because this is inconsistent with information (a testimony) flowing). We get to the truth of black holes from journals we deemed reliable, TV channels we deemed reliable, education entities we deemed reliable. Subsequently these entities we deemed reliable are authenticated by the central government. One of the government's duty is to remove untrustworthy media conveying falsehoods. You may need to overthrow it if you don't think that it enforces the conveying of truth.

As for the Bible, the intangible media conveying its information are the physicla churches (you might choose to read the Bible by yourself though, yet in terms of a media in a larger scale of conveying information the churches are the role). The situation is governed by an intangible Church which utimately refers to the Temple built by Jesus in three days. It is somehow linked to God Himself (Jesus is the head of legitimate churches), in terms of authority and authentication.

Other than this "business as usual" flow of conveying truth, God the Holy Spirit is also poured upon Christians to guide them through. However, this is tied to basically two factors, which are 1) where your faith is, and 2) your distance from the sin-incompatible God.
As Jesus put, you can move mountains if you have enough faith, while He also put that His direct disciples' faith is smaller than the smallest seeds in the world. So you still need the authenticated Church to maintain a standard (though intangible as well).

Distance to the sin-incompatible God matters as well. How close you are to God? In 60s there could be less than 1% Christians can actually get in touch with pornography, but today the opposite may be true that less than 1% Christian haven't get in touch with it. To a certain extent, this measures distance from God of today's humans. Again, I don't think that you can rely on this factor alone without the intangible standard from the intangible Church. No worries yet, the final statement is that if you are His sheep you will hear His voice. Those endure to the end by doing the will of the Father shall be saved at the end. Not a single sheep will be left behind! That's the promise.

I started to read your post, and it looks interesting.
I'll get back to it, and respond later. I have to go now.

 

[Delvianna]

Don't fall, you hear... I don't want to see you get hurt.
The problem there is that everyone has God. Every single believer in God... or at least 99% will claim to have God, so that claim will fall on deaf ears, really.

Not only skeptics death ears, but religious people's deaf ears.
Even as you and @timothyu say that, some here will be saying that you don't have a clue what truth is, and you imagine you have God.

The truth need to be examined with a scientific approach.
Even Jesus demonstrated this, when he said...

• You will [p]know them by their fruits... Matthew 7:16
• By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another.... John 13:35
• that you bear much fruit, and so [g]prove to be My disciples... John 15:8

etc.

Getting to know the truth is not a matter of having a belief that one has God, and therefore one knows the truth.
People are not going to count that as evidence.
This was demonstrated in the book of Acts 17, very profoundly.

Paul was speaking to people who felt they knew God, but they?
Paul stood up in their midst...
The account in Acts 17:1-4 reads...
1 ...they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 And according to Paul’s custom, he [a]visited them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 [b]explaining and [c]giving evidence that the [d]Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the [e]Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, [f]along with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and [g]a significant number of the leading women

It was the scriptures that Paul skillfully used, to point out the truth.
Only then did some believe, and accept what Paul showed them.

A people that were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, were the Bereans, [l]for they received the word with [m]great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
Again, it was the scriptures... studying it, and being able to see for themselves that what Paul was saying, was actually scriptural.

It was through investigation - a scientific approach.
Having something by which to measure the evidence.
Was it because God was with the Bereans? The scriptures do not say that.
The scriptures say, these were more noble-minded, and they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

That is the key. Being able to examine the scriptures, and know the ring of truth, because of seeing it.
Yes, It takes an honest and humble heart, but that depends on each individual, doesn't it.
Is that not why when Jesus sent his disciples out, he said to them, "Whenever you enter a city or village, search for a worthy person and stay in his home until you leave town" Matthew 10:11


Jesus did not tell them search for who has God, because they could not possibly know that, but they could discern who were humble enough to listen and be taught, and honest enough to accept, and inquire for more, because they were hungering and thirsting for truth.

All of this is true, isn't it?

I think you're missing the point. If someone has God, then God will lead/guide them. Since Jesus is the Shepard and we form our covenant with him, then we trust in his guidance. Can God use people and scripture to back up the truth? Yes, but without God's guidance, we can fall way off the road. Jesus is the "way, the truth and the light", all you technically need is God and he will guide/direct. When you start adding other things as a "requirement", you're essentially saying God can't guide correctly to truth without other stuff. If he really needs to, he'll show up himself. Loads of testimonies of God showing up in dreams and such, for people in other religions or even atheists. All you NEED is God, but scripture does help. As I said, it's an aid, but it shouldn't ever replace your walk/relationship with him on a personal basis.

 

[concretecamper]

Those are some very good points. Thank you.
There is indeed a way to solve it.
See post #19.

Post #19 puts forth a subjective solution. Truth cannot be subjective.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you.
Does your investigation include the Bible, foremost when it comes to the truth about God, Jesus Christ, life, death... etc.?

Of course it includes the Bible. I've been studying it along with many academic avenues for nearly 40 years, and I've done so with lots of scholarly help.

As I said above, "...like St. Luke did."

 

[Chaplain Jim]

"The Holy Spirit shall lead you into all truth" - God's Holy Word

 

[timothyu]

Truth is not what we humans want it to be, but the opposite of what we desire. God said from beginning to end in the Bible to put His Will, that being His truth, ahead of our own. The pursuit of self by both human and elohim has steered us away from His truth to our own. We were given two commandments to rectify this but either we refuse or adapt it to suit our desires, not His. More people use God to justify themselves than actually follow His will. We even built a religion that makes it about us rather then God's plan to have both man and elohim alike no longer follow self and abuse our self-awareness. We were made with self-awareness to be of use to the Father, but until we stop grabbing the reins from Him, we are useless to His purpose and are cancers within His creation.

 

[ARBITER01]

Many philosophers debate for centuries, and never come to a conclusion.
As a Christian, how does one determine what is truth?
Is it by consulting what people says... be it there may be a multiplicity of opinions, ideas, interpretations, and the like?

How did early Christians view finding the truth?
How would Jesus establish truth?

Truth is directly from GOD by revelation of The Holy Spirit.

After Jesus was filled with The Holy Spirit, He was completely dependent upon Him.

 

[CoreyD]

Humans lack the ability to access truth directly. More often they acquire truth indirectly.

In terms of truth, there are roughly two camps of humans, one with extrememly small amount while the other the mass majority.
When you trust your own five senses, you joined the first camp of humans deemed as the eyewitnesses. When you are unable (as limited by human inability) to contact truth directly. You joined the second camp of humans deemed as the believers.

Even science works so. Do you know that black holes exist? You do. Do you have the evidence? You don't. Information (truth) functions as a piece of human testimony from eyewitnesses which we call them the scientists. There could less than 100 such scientists dedicated and specialized in researching black holes, versus the 8 billion humans on earth. That is to say, the 8 billioin humans need to put faith in the 100 scientists to indirectly get to such a piece of truth. That's how reality works.

Now how do we know the the truth of black hole with its characteristics are truly from scientists other than swallowing with faith? Subconsciously we rely on evaluating the legitimacy of what this piece of testimony is conveyed. From the authorities behind the testimony who authenticate the information, and from the consistency of how information are conveyed (if I said the in center of a black hole, there's a large stone, you shall not believe because this is inconsistent with information (a testimony) flowing). We get to the truth of black holes from journals we deemed reliable, TV channels we deemed reliable, education entities we deemed reliable. Subsequently these entities we deemed reliable are authenticated by the central government. One of the government's duty is to remove untrustworthy media conveying falsehoods. You may need to overthrow it if you don't think that it enforces the conveying of truth.

As for the Bible, the intangible media conveying its information are the physicla churches (you might choose to read the Bible by yourself though, yet in terms of a media in a larger scale of conveying information the churches are the role). The situation is governed by an intangible Church which utimately refers to the Temple built by Jesus in three days. It is somehow linked to God Himself (Jesus is the head of legitimate churches), in terms of authority and authentication.

Other than this "business as usual" flow of conveying truth, God the Holy Spirit is also poured upon Christians to guide them through. However, this is tied to basically two factors, which are 1) where your faith is, and 2) your distance from the sin-incompatible God.
As Jesus put, you can move mountains if you have enough faith, while He also put that His direct disciples' faith is smaller than the smallest seeds in the world. So you still need the authenticated Church to maintain a standard (though intangible as well).

Distance to the sin-incompatible God matters as well. How close you are to God? In 60s there could be less than 1% Christians can actually get in touch with pornography, but today the opposite may be true that less than 1% Christian haven't get in touch with it. To a certain extent, this measures distance from God of today's humans. Again, I don't think that you can rely on this factor alone without the intangible standard from the intangible Church. No worries yet, the final statement is that if you are His sheep you will hear His voice. Those endure to the end by doing the will of the Father shall be saved at the end. Not a single sheep will be left behind! That's the promise.

Thanks.
I agree that Jesus is the head of legitimate church, in terms of authority and authentication.

I have a few questions.
How does one get to become a sheep... Can you give me the process step by step?
How does one get close to God... what is the first, second, and third step.

For example, say that I am a non Christian, but I am searching...

 

[CoreyD]

Truth is directly from GOD by revelation of The Holy Spirit.

After Jesus was filled with The Holy Spirit, He was completely dependent upon Him.

Are you saying that if I am an atheist, or I worship a number of gods, and I am looking for the truth, God will give me a revelation through holy spirit, and I will know the truth?

 

[CoreyD]

I think you're missing the point. If someone has God, then God will lead/guide them. Since Jesus is the Shepard and we form our covenant with him, then we trust in his guidance. Can God use people and scripture to back up the truth? Yes, but without God's guidance, we can fall way off the road. Jesus is the "way, the truth and the light", all you technically need is God and he will guide/direct. When you start adding other things as a "requirement", you're essentially saying God can't guide correctly to truth without other stuff. If he really needs to, he'll show up himself. Loads of testimonies of God showing up in dreams and such, for people in other religions or even atheists. All you NEED is God, but scripture does help. As I said, it's an aid, but it shouldn't ever replace your walk/relationship with him on a personal basis.

Does someone that has God, not know the truth? Can someone have God, and not know the truth?
If one has the truth they do not need to find it do they?
What about the one who is looking for the truth... how the truth be known, to them?

 

[CoreyD]

Post #19 puts forth a subjective solution. Truth cannot be subjective.

Please, can you please point out what subjective solution is in post #19, and where it says truth is subjective? Thanks.

 

[CoreyD]

"The Holy Spirit shall lead you into all truth" - God's Holy Word

How does the holy spirit lead a lost soul, and what scripture(s) can you share to show this to be the case? Thanks.

 

[timothyu]

Sheep are followers, not leaders. They put God's will ahead of their own and the world's. In other words, no more self determination which leads to all the self oriented pitfalls such as self-interest, self-justification, etc.. When someone experiences a spark of revelation due to someone or an experience, that is simply knowledge given that there is a new path to follow. Being receptive to this illumination is part of no longer relying on self-determination, a seawall we set up to protect our misguided ways. Discernment will decide whether this illumination will lead us out of the world or further into it. We either grow, or falter.

 

[Delvianna]

Does someone that has God, not know the truth? Can someone have God, and not know the truth?

In a lot of aspects, yes. People can start the walk and then stop. They don't necessarily grow, they just remain stagnant and there for, ignorant to a lot of truth that can then go way off the path and into the woods because they then, accept what Pastor/Priest says something is that they could be wrong on and never tested.

If one has the truth they do not need to find it do they?

If they have the truth, they need to stay in it and not leave it.

What about the one who is looking for the truth... how the truth be known, to them?

God will guide them to it, but you have to put God first and walk with him. Faith is a verb which means there has to be action behind it. You can't just sit around and wait for truth to fall into your lap. God knocks on the door, you have to get up, open the door, let him in and then follow his lead.

God leads/guides in several different ways. Thoughts/impressions/dreams/inspiration/ and other people. Each of these have to be tested but essentially, you can pick up the bible and see if what information you got, if there is any scripture that opposes it to make sure its accurate and if theres scripture that supports it too. God builds precept upon precept so he isn't going to start you out with like, understanding Daniels visions... he'll start you from the ground up and correct you along the way. As long as you are following God, seeking to hear his voice and continually walk out your faith (verb) you will reach truth. Even if you got some things wrong along the way, God corrects.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:27

 

[concretecamper]

Please, can you please point out what subjective solution is in post #19, and where it says truth is subjective? Thanks.

It's actually #18, I automatically used 19 because you did. Anyway #18, you say this.

"That is the key. Being able to examine the scriptures, and know the ring of truth, because of seeing it."

That's is subjective.

 

[CoreyD]

In a lot of aspects, yes. People can start the walk and then stop.

Does that person fit Jesus' words at John 8:31, 32?

They don't necessarily grow, they just remain stagnant and there for, ignorant to a lot of truth that can then go way off the path and into the woods because they then, accept what Pastor/Priest says something is that they could be wrong on and never tested.


If they have the truth, they need to stay in it and not leave it.

That wasn't my question you know, and these minor details are not related to the point of my question.

God will guide them to it, but you have to put God first and walk with him. Faith is a verb which means there has to be action behind it. You can't just sit around and wait for truth to fall into your lap. God knocks on the door, you have to get up, open the door, let him in and then follow his lead.

How does one put God first. What sre the first, second, and third steps to putting God first?

God leads/guides in several different ways. Thoughts/impressions/dreams/inspiration/ and other people.

God has not continued with all these. Hebrews 1:1, 2
Can you please give an example in the Bible where God leads/guides by other people... subsequent to the Messiah's arrival, that is?

Each of these have to be tested but essentially, you can pick up the bible and see if what information you got, if there is any scripture that opposes it to make sure its accurate and if theres scripture that supports it too.

Can you please give a scriptural reference or quotation, in support of this?
Not that I disagree, but if you are informing someone... especially an unbeliever, They may be tired of people's various opinions... you know what I mean?

God builds precept upon precept so he isn't going to start you out with like, understanding Daniels visions... he'll start you from the ground up and correct you along the way.

How does he do that... Pour it into my head (see me as a skeptical person seeking answers to sincere questions. Consider that I an not interested in hearing opinions, because I'm tired of hearing this person say one thing; the other something else; a third, something different...)?

As long as you are following God, seeking to hear his voice and continually walk out your faith (verb) you will reach truth. Even if you got some things wrong along the way, God corrects.

I just want to be clear.
So, are you saying that no one has truth today?
There is no group that actually can say "we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God is beseeching through us. We implore on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20. All are seeking truth, and cannot be considered the servant of the shepherd that has the responsibility to feed persons on earth? Matthew 24:14; Matthew 25:45

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:27

Yes. How do they hear, listen, and follow?
Romans 10:13-15
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
14 How can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news.

Would you agree or disagree that it is by

• listening to those Jesus sends to preach the good news;
• examining the scriptures to see if these things are so; Acts 17:11
• accepting and applying what they are taught... if it aligns with the scriptures Acts 17:12

?

Can we not therefore use the scriptures to come to know truth... with the help of those Jesus sends?

 

[CoreyD]

It's actually #18, I automatically used 19 because you did. Anyway #18, you say this.

"That is the key. Being able to examine the scriptures, and know the ring of truth, because of seeing it."

That's is subjective.

Yes, it's 18, sorry.
So, in Acts 17:11, 12 those Bereans who examine the scriptures, and were able to identify the truth, because of seeing it for themselves, did not have an objective way of knowing the truth... you think it was subjective?
You don't think the truth can be acquired that way?

Would that view not make Hebrews 4:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 2 Peter 1:21 and all the scriptures invalid?

 

[Delvianna]

Does that person fit Jesus' words at John 8:31, 32?

Yes because that is a condensed answer.

That wasn't my question you know, and these minor details are not related to the point of my question.

Then how bout expand on it and clarify instead of just making this statement? Because if I clearly misunderstood your question, it's not like I just didn't answer you. You may be tired by people giving you different answers but you could have explained your question. This is literally the entire point of following Christ because there is only 1 truth and when you get 50 other different answers, and you're relying on someone else giving you the information, that isn't going to guide you to the answer that's only going to increase confusion. In my personal opinion, you can disregard every single thing I say and everyone else. Ignore everyone and pray and ask God to guide you. Open up your bible and figure it out while you pretend to live on an island. I have seen God work time and time again this way. He shows up for people. It's a proven fact.

How does one put God first. What sre the first, second, and third steps to putting God first?

You're being pedantic. There is no first, second or 3rd step to putting God first, it literally just IS putting God first. Either he's first, or he isn't. If God said to you, "hey leave your job" do you tell him no because "what about my wife? I will stay for her", well that's not putting God first is it? It is a black or white scenario, either you put him first, or you don't.

God has not continued with all these. Hebrews 1:1, 2
Can you please give an example in the Bible where God leads/guides by other people... subsequent to the Messiah's arrival, that is?

The Gift of prophecy is still around as there isn't a single verse that says it was done away with and Paul still lists it among the spiritual gifts. Prophecy isn't just fortelling the future, it is being a spokesperson for God. This is why in instruction to the church, Paul says if you Prophesy, do it one at a time (1 Corinthians 14:31) so that "everyone may be instructed and encouraged." The very last 2 prophets are the two witnesses in Revelation which is in the future.

Can you please give a scriptural reference or quotation, in support of this?
Not that I disagree, but if you are informing someone... especially an unbeliever, They may be tired of people's various opinions... you know what I mean?

The armor of God that Paul explains in Ephesians 6. Since this was a metaphor to help people against spiritual warfare, it can absolutely be applied to testing the spirits since that in essence IS spiritual warfare. Explaining the entire metaphor and giving a breakdown of the armor of God is a whole lesson by itself and incorporates a lot, so I'm just going to leave my answer summed up to this.

How does he do that... Pour it into my head (see me as a skeptical person seeking answers to sincere questions. Consider that I an not interested in hearing opinions, because I'm tired of hearing this person say one thing; the other something else; a third, something different...)?

The bible doesn't spell out how he does it, just that he does. I can give you my personal experience but if you aren't interested in hearing opinions, then it doesn't matter.

I just want to be clear.
So, are you saying that no one has truth today?
There is no group that actually can say "we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God is beseeching through us. We implore on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20. All are seeking truth, and cannot be considered the servant of the shepherd that has the responsibility to feed persons on earth? Matthew 24:14; Matthew 25:45

No, I'm viewing this on a personal level. Either you want to view this as a whole, or view this on a personal level. The answer differs between the two. So you as a person, when God lead and directs you, you can get stuff wrong along the way because you can misunderstand what he's trying to teach you, you can misinterpret a scripture he shows you, you can come to the wrong conclusion that he's trying to teach you. But eventually, with God's correction and guidance, you can get to truth. That's what I mean.

Yes. How do they hear, listen, and follow?
Romans 10:13-15
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
14 How can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news.

By what I stated earlier : Thoughts/impressions/dreams/inspiration/ and other people.

Also consider that we have a lot of apostasy in the church due to the age that we live in. We cannot rely on someone to preach to us and tell us the truth when there is a massive apostasy problem. Christ warned that in the last days there would be a great falling away from truth, and that has 100% happened. So the answers I'm giving you circumvent that problem. We have but ONE teacher (Matthew 23:8) and you can put your entire faith and trust in that Teacher, Jesus to get you to know what he wants you to know. He is our high priest forever and it's the high priests duty to teach and guide. (Hebrews 4:14)