The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

[SabbathBlessings]

Yep. It was repeated by Jesus two love commandments so your aha moment is gone. Can you show me the verse where the 4th commandment was repeated by Jesus two love commandments?

The summary of the law does not delete the details from being written on stone (all Ten Det 4:13 Exo 31:18 according to God) to being written on the heart Heb8:10 2Cor3:3

We do not get to pick and choose which commandments are Gods laws, unless we think we are god, which is breaking the very first commandment and love is keeping God's commandments, not breaking them 1John5:3 Hopefully you will see this one day.

 

[Hentenza]

It does not matter what any "all" believe. What matters is what God has said. And He said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath Matt 12:12. Not that the Sabbath was done away with.

The sabbath was fulfilled in the person of Jesus. God gave us a new covenant and the 4th commandment is NOT included.

 

[Hentenza]

The summary of the law does not delete

You already messed up. No one here is claiming that anything was deleted. Wrong argument.

the details from being written on stone (all Ten Det 4:13 Exo 31:18 according to God) to being written on the heart Heb8:10 2Cor3:3

Fulfilled in the person of Jesus.

We do not get to pick and choose which commandments are Gods laws, unless we think we are god, which is breaking the very first commandment and love is keeping God's commandments, not breaking them 1John5:3 Hopefully you will see this one day.

Jesus gets to pick what is part of the new covenant. You don’t get to force old covenant terms into a new covenant. You don’t get to force the Christian into the law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And I understand your believe that the promised New Covenant didn't start until Pentecost. I was taught the same thing. But Jesus, before HE was murdered, forgave sins. And not once did HE follow sacrificial "works of the Law" required under the Old Priesthood, at least according to my understanding of what is written. I could be wrong about that, so please do your own study of the Scriptures discerning this belief.

And I can't get my head around the implication of God's New Covenant not starting until after HE ascended, because HE was the High Priest of the Apostles in my view. So while I believe the New covenant still has parts that are even today, yet to be fulfilled, it seems that it started the day Jesus was anointed High Priest of God by a True Levite Priest, "John the Baptist", "for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness".

Give this some thought, and let me know what you think, even in PM if you want.

Thank you for this.

New Testament means New Covenant. Jesus lived in the New Covenant and I understand why it would be convenient for people to say the New Covenant started after His death so therefore we would not have to follow the example of God who is Jesus that became flesh or follow and believe His teaching, as sadly so many people believe and teach. His covenant was ratified by His death but started much sooner.

 

[Hentenza]

Several years ago, I had a long discussion with a pastor of a church I did not attend. We talked about how the Sabbath rest never moved to Sunday. It was a friendly conversation. He told me that his whole life was dedicated to his church and that the cost was too great to his ministry to start keeping the Sabbath. My opinion about that conversation has gone back and forth since. Was he choosing the lesser of two evils? Was he a coward? Was his choice justified? He was a good man who spread the gospel and served his people.

He made the right choice.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You already messed up. No one here is claiming that anything was deleted. Wrong argument.

Fulfilled in the person of Jesus.

Jesus gets to pick what is part of the new covenant. You don’t get to force old covenant terms into a new covenant. You don’t get to force the Christian into the law.

You're the one that says the commandment that we don't like get deleted in the New Covenant, not me, not God. Creating an unbiblical number over what God of the Universe said Deut4:13 Exo34:28

I am not going to go down this rabbit hole with you again.

This argument will have to be settled by Jesus at His soon return, we just need to be prepared for the decisions we make today which path that leads us to Rom6:16 Rev 22:11

 

[Hentenza]

You're the one that says the commandment that we don't like get deleted in the New Covenant, not me, not God.

Quote my post where I said that. Never have. My argument has always been that the new covenant has different terms than the old covenant and Jesus fulfilled the sabbath in Him. Prove me wrong. I asked you for two verses that you are yet to post to prove your argument. You know which ones they are.

I am not going to go down this rabbit hole.

But you keep going down your rabbit hole by repeating the same argument that I have refuted many times.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Several years ago, I had a long discussion with a pastor of a church I did not attend. We talked about how the Sabbath rest never moved to Sunday. It was a friendly conversation. He told me that his whole life was dedicated to his church and that the cost was too great to his ministry to start keeping the Sabbath. My opinion about that conversation has gone back and forth since. Was he choosing the lesser of two evils? Was he a coward? Was his choice justified? He was a good man who spread the gospel and served his people.

Jesus warned many would come in His name, but are deceiving. Sin is deceptive Heb3:13 and comes in many different forms- the way we don't deceive ourselves is stick with what God of the Bible says Isa8:20

Some people know the Truth and don't care, others are deceived. Jesus speaks of those who lay aside the commandments of God quoting from the Ten Commandments those who teach and follow this teaching, both groups end up in a ditch Mat15:3-14

 

[Jerry N.]

Thank you for this.

New Testament means New Covenant. Jesus lived in the New Covenant and I understand why it would be convenient for people to say the New Covenant started after His death so therefore we would not have to follow the example of God who is Jesus that became flesh or follow and believe His teaching, as sadly so many people believe and teach. His covenant was ratified by His death but started much sooner.

There has been plenty of debate about when the New Covenant started. Personally, I think the Old Covenant ended when Jesus said, “It is finished.” The New Covenant started with the coming of the Holy Spirit on believers. I might be wrong, but Jesus and the apostles kept the Law of Moses, but not the law of the Pharisees. Beyond that, it is not important to me 2000 years later. The Old Covenant has been fulfilled but not negated. The New Covenant is based on the working of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Servus]

I agree, but many brothers and sisters use those verses to say they don't need to keep the Sabbath, but they don't follow verses 10 through 12. I have only met a few, but they are very defensive about it.

It's the Sabbatarians who are passing judgement. Accusing practically all of Christianity of being in open disobedience to God. Rebelling against God's law and putting traditions of men in place of God's law and commandments. That's what sows discord in this matter. In playground terms it's "we obey God and you guys don't".

If the attitude was we choose to be Sabbatarians, but it's alright if most Christians aren't, there wouldn't be enmity. And indeed on our side we say go ahead and be a Sabbatarian if you want to.

 

[Studyman]

Another good example of this was His refusal to comply with the Law and have the adulterous woman stoned.

Carl, Jesus followed God's LAW to the Letter with the Adulterous women. I am trying to learn how to be civil when men further popular falsehoods about my Lord and Savior. I have to careful because there is no malice on your part, you are just promoting what you and I were both taught. I will show you real quickly, through scriptures, how Jesus obeyed His Father's Commandments perfectly, and I hope you do the study yourself, and can be corrected of your teaching that Jesus "Refused to comply with His Father's Laws".

John 8: 1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, "that they might have to accuse him". But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Notice here that you are also accusing Him of Sinning against His Father's Laws. In fact that is the very purpose of your reply. Now listen to what Jesus told the mainstream preachers of His Time, and is telling you now.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, "let him first" cast a stone at her."

Notice that Jesus didn't forbid them to stone this woman at all. And the Law of Moses says that if someone transgresses God's Laws, they are to be put to death, stoned with stones. "by the congregation of the Lord". And these men were the Pharisees and Scribes who sit in Moses seat.

So why didn't they stone her? Jesus gave them His blessing? So what did they do?

9 And they which heard it, being "convicted by their own conscience", went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Jesus didn't tell them to abandon their wickedness. They knew that according to the "Law of Moses" they all should have been already stoned.

So that left Jesus ALONE to accuse her.

Carl, listen to God's Laws here, they are written for us so we can discern between truth and falsehoods.

Duet. 17: 2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, "that hath wrought wickedness" in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

6 At the mouth "of two witnesses, or three witnesses", shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth "of one witness" he "shall not" be put to death.

7 The "hands of the witnesses" "shall be first upon him" to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

Jesus didn't bring her to be stoned, it was the witnesses that brought her, which according to the LAW must be first to stone her. But they departed and left Jesus "ALONE". So what did Jesus say?

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, "where are those thine accusers"? hath "no man condemned thee"?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, "Neither do I condemn thee": go, and sin no more.

He was "one witness", not two or three. "BY God's LAW" He wasn't allowed to Stone her.

Do the study.

And yet Carl, since you are I were kids, we have been taught by this world's religious sects and businesses "who come in Christ's Name", that Jesus "Refused to Comply with His Father's Laws" concerning the adulterous woman. But as you can surely see, when a man actually studies the scriptures for themselves, this teaching is an insidious lie, a complete and utter falsehood. Jesus followed God's Laws perfectly in the matter of the adulterous woman, to the very letter.

I know you mean no malice, and too was deceived into believing this falsehood for a long time. And I am very passionate about these things. But please, be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and stop furthering the blasphemy that is so popular in this world's religions system, that Jesus rejected His Own Fathers Commandments. Because HE didn't.

 

[Jerry N.]

Carl, Jesus followed God's LAW to the Letter with the Adulterous women. I am trying to learn how to be civil when men further popular falsehoods about my Lord and Savior. I have to careful because there is no malice on your part, you are just promoting what you and I were both taught. I will show you real quickly, through scriptures, how Jesus obeyed His Father's Commandments perfectly, and I hope you do the study yourself, and can be corrected of your teaching that Jesus "Refused to comply with His Father's Laws".

John 8: 1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, "that they might have to accuse him". But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Notice here that you are also accusing Him of Sinning against His Father's Laws. In fact that is the very purpose of your reply. Now listen to what Jesus told the mainstream preachers of His Time, and is telling you now.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, "let him first" cast a stone at her."

Notice that Jesus didn't forbid them to stone this woman at all. And the Law of Moses says that if someone transgresses God's Laws, they are to be put to death, stoned with stones. "by the congregation of the Lord". And these men were the Pharisees and Scribes who sit in Moses seat.

So why didn't they stone her? Jesus gave them His blessing? So what did they do?

9 And they which heard it, being "convicted by their own conscience", went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Jesus didn't tell them to abandon their wickedness. They knew that according to the "Law of Moses" they all should have been already stoned.

So that left Jesus ALONE to accuse her.

Carl, listen to God's Laws here, they are written for us so we can discern between truth and falsehoods.

Duet. 17: 2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, "that hath wrought wickedness" in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

6 At the mouth "of two witnesses, or three witnesses", shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth "of one witness" he "shall not" be put to death.

7 The "hands of the witnesses" "shall be first upon him" to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

Jesus didn't bring her to be stoned, it was the witnesses that brought her, which according to the LAW must be first to stone her. But they departed and left Jesus "ALONE". So what did Jesus say?

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, "where are those thine accusers"? hath "no man condemned thee"?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, "Neither do I condemn thee": go, and sin no more.

He was "one witness", not two or three. "BY God's LAW" He wasn't allowed to Stone her.

Do the study.

And yet Carl, since you are I were kids, we have been taught by this world's religious sects and businesses "who come in Christ's Name", that Jesus "Refused to Comply with His Father's Laws" concerning the adulterous woman. But as you can surely see, when a man actually studies the scriptures for themselves, this teaching is an insidious lie, a complete and utter falsehood. Jesus followed God's Laws perfectly in the matter of the adulterous woman, to the very letter.

I know you mean no malice, and too was deceived into believing this falsehood for a long time. And I am very passionate about these things. But please, be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and stop furthering the blasphemy that is so popular in this world's religions system, that Jesus rejected His Own Fathers Commandments. Because HE didn't.

Right, but where was the man? She should not be stoned if he wasn't there.

 

[Servus]

Several years ago, I had a long discussion with a pastor of a church I did not attend. We talked about how the Sabbath rest never moved to Sunday. It was a friendly conversation. He told me that his whole life was dedicated to his church and that the cost was too great to his ministry to start keeping the Sabbath. My opinion about that conversation has gone back and forth since. Was he choosing the lesser of two evils? Was he a coward? Was his choice justified? He was a good man who spread the gospel and served his people.

Sunday, the Lord's Day, was not a matter of the early church moving the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. As I recall Ellen White came up with the misconception that Christians were seventh day sabbath keepers, until Constantine changed it to Sunday (which according to her is the Mark of the Beast), but that's historically inaccurate.

From the beginning Christians got together on Sunday, the Lord's Day, and broke bread, meaning they took communion. Partook in the Eucharist. Ate the flesh and drank the blood of Christ together.

 

[Studyman]

My point was not to argue for the Sabbath, because I try to keep it and have for many years. Everything you wrote is correct, but I was pointing out the inconsistencies I have seen in those who have told me that my keeping of the Sabbath in not Biblical. Maybe my writing was not as clear as I intended. I am in no position to condemn or support those who don’t keep the Sabbath, because I can’t go a week without committing some offense toward God. It is the Holy Spirit’s work to convince people of what is right. I’m not half the saint of thousands of Christians who kept Sunday as the Lord’s Day, so who am I to say what they do is sin. Civil law is something else.

I agree. We shouldn't place judgments on people, that is God's Job. But we should, and are tasked with, discerning and judging the teaching we are surrounded by, to understand if it is wrought in God or man.

And then if a popular teaching runs contrary to the Word's Jesus said to live by, we should separate ourselves from that teaching, and, as Jesus teaches, "be not like unto them", and "Take Heed" we are not deceived by them.

I get what you mean about "committing some offense toward God", Lord knows I struggle every day.

Nevertheless, as Paul teaches;

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Where else could I go?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It's the Sabbatarians who are passing judgement. Accusing practically all of Christianity of being in open disobedience to God. Rebelling against God's law and putting traditions of men in place of God's law and commandments. That's what sows discord in this matter. In playground terms it's "we obey God and you guys don't".

If the attitude was we choose to be Sabbatarians, but it's alright if most Christians aren't, there wouldn't be enmity. And indeed on our side we say go ahead and be a Sabbatarian if you want to.

I have not seen anyone judge, human judgement means nothing, but Jesus tells us to teach each other the commandments quoting directly from the Ten Commandments and warned about those who break and teach others to break the least of these commandments comes with some serious consequences. Mat5:19-30 Man has taken the 4th commandment and ripped it apart from the rest of the Testimony of God that God Himself placed together. Deut4:13 Exo34:28 we are just trying to help our brothers and sisters out because breaking the Sabbath came with some serious consequences. And the Bible tells us why Eze22:26. I do not believe His standard of righteousness is going to change, Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-2 He tells us it won't Psa119:142. If you saw a brother or sister downing, would you not try to send a lifejacket? While we can't force anyone to accept the life jacket or not, we can sure try.

 

[Studyman]

Right, but where was the man? She should not be stoned if he wasn't there.

True, it was the Pharisees who were not following God's Laws. Nevertheless, Jesus followed them perfectly, which is the point I hoped to make.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sunday, the Lord's Day, was not a matter of the early church moving the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. As I recall Ellen White came up with the misconception that Christians were seventh day sabbath keepers, until Constantine changed it to Sunday (which according to her is the Mark of the Beast), but that's historically inaccurate.

From the beginning Christians got together on Sunday, the Lord's Day, and broke bread, meaning they took communion. Partook in the Eucharist. Ate the flesh and drank the blood of Christ together.

No that's not what she teaches, she taught it happened gradually, Constantine is when the mainstream people switched because Christian Sabbath-keepers were being persecuted . Here is a clear history of how the Sabbath changed from God's Sabbath day, to the first day as predicted Dan7:25, that is not found in the Bible and did not from God. The first day God said is for work and labors and only named one holy day as His, in all of Scripture and that is the Sabbath Exo20:10 Isa58:13.

The first day does not have God's sanctification, it is not one of God's commandments, but a man-made tradition competing with the God of the Bible said, both written and spoken Exo31:18 Isa8:20

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for this.

New Testament means New Covenant. Jesus lived in the New Covenant and I understand why it would be convenient for people to say the New Covenant started after His death so therefore we would not have to follow the example of God who is Jesus that became flesh or follow and believe His teaching, as sadly so many people believe and teach. His covenant was ratified by His death but started much sooner.

In my studies, God's Promised New Covenant didn't have anything to do with His 10 Commandments or His Laws defining them. It was the Priesthood that changed, in my view. But God placed us in a world with religions that promote doctrines and traditions from the heart of men. Just as HE did Abraham and Noah and Jesus.

What a great topic.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In my studies, God's Promised New Covenant didn't have anything to do with His 10 Commandments or His Laws defining them. It was the Priesthood that changed, in my view. But God placed us in a world with religions that promote doctrines and traditions from the heart of men. Just as HE did Abraham and Noah and Jesus.

What a great topic.

It was the location of the Ten Commandments that changed, not the words Psa89:34, do you not agree?

from tables of stone to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10. His laws not written on stoney hearts, but hearts of flesh Eze 36:26

I disagree it doesn't have anything to do with His laws when He said clearly it does Heb8:10 changing the location, not what He promised not to alter, established on better promises Heb8:6 on how we can keep them John14:15-18 Heb8:10

The priesthood indeed changed why the law of the priesthood had to change to make room for Jesus who is our High Priest Who came from the tribe of Judah.

 

[Servus]

Deut. 23:26 When you enter another man’s field of standing grain, you may pluck ears with your hand; but you must not put a sickle to your neighbor’s grain.

Where does it say that was allowed on the Sabbath?