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Trump live updates: President expands ‘narco’ boat strikes to Pacific Ocean as 8th boat is struck

Hentenza

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I'm certain that others will notice the reticence. There's still a resistance to actually saying the bad things out loud. It needs quite a few posts to tease out a reply that's anywhere in the neighbourhood of a direct answer.

And this is as close as we're going to get.

You are admitting that if Trump tells you that a person deserves to be killed, then that's simply good enough. Extra judicial executions are now the norm. No evidence is needed. No warning required. No due process to be considered.

This is what was common in Argentina under the junta. It was normal in Franco's Spain. It's what happens now in Russia. But even in those examples, and so many more, those ordering the killings made excuses. They hide the truth. They pretended that someone who had disappeared was nothing to do with them. And people in these failed states pretended to believe them.

But now in the good old US of A? The guy in charge boasts about it. And the chilling fact about this? The terrible outcome of this? It's that you literally don't care.

You are no longer on the path to a failed state. You're there already.
Again, here is the part of my post that you failed to quote. You blame the cops, I blame the drug traffickers.

Secondly, I didn’t realize that Australia was such a perfect country. When you vote in the US then you can complain. Until then you are just blowing smoke.
 
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Hentenza

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Are saying there is some ambiguity in the relevant laws and that it requires a court case to settle the matter?
Not sure what you are asking me here. Please clarify.
 
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wing2000

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By the way, Miranda rights are only applicable when someone is being questioned or interrogated.

.... if the government simply kills the suspect first, without even attempting to arrest the person, Miranda rights are a moot point.

Of course, that's exactly why the military has been ordered to kill rather than inderdict under Coast Guard command.
 
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Belk

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Not sure what you are asking me here. Please clarify.
I'm trying to interpret your explanation in a way that makes sense to me. The way your statement reads, it sounds to me like you are saying that these strikes are currently occurring in a legal grey area and that a court ruling is needed to clarify if the fall within the bounds of the law, or outside of those bounds. In other words that the legality is currently undefined and requires further judicial clarification before anyone can say if it is legal or not.
 
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Hentenza

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I'm trying to interpret your explanation in a way that makes sense to me. The way your statement reads, it sounds to me like you are saying that these strikes are currently occurring in a legal grey area and that a court ruling is needed to clarify if the fall within the bounds of the law, or outside of those bounds. In other words that the legality is currently undefined and requires further judicial clarification before anyone can say if it is legal or not.
Thanks for clarifying. I’m not an expert on international law but from what I read so far the power to stop Trump rests with the US courts and congress so not sure if even an international law exists addressing these actions. Please correct me if am wrong.

Trump is using article 2 of the constitution to claim that he has authority to use the military against narco-traffickers. So is it a gray area? Not sure but it seems that if his interpretation of article 2 is correct then he can continue but if a court rules that his interpretation is not correct then he would have to stop. Do you agree?
 
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Belk

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Thanks for clarifying. I’m not an expert on international law but from what I read so far the power to stop Trump rests with the US courts and congress so not sure if even an international law exists addressing these actions. Please correct me if am wrong.

I also have no expertise in law so this is coming from my layman's understanding.

I believe international law is against these types of actions, but only in areas the US has not signed on or agreed to.
Trump is using article 2 of the constitution to claim that he has authority to use the military against narco-traffickers. So is it a gray area? Not sure but it seems that if his interpretation of article 2 is correct then he can continue but if a court rules that his interpretation is not correct then he would have to stop. Do you agree?

I would agree with that.

The issue I have with Trumps actions are two-fold.

1) The legal authorization to kill enemy combatants that Bush and Obama used was later seen as faulty.

2) The designation of "Narco-terrorist" is seems completely made up specifically to bypass the law to allow for these strikes.

Taken together this use of force strikes me as very problematic. Most especially since it basis the entire premise on people who voluntarily take a substance and then suffer adverse effects. Imagine if we killed people for having the audacity to brew beer simply because someone who bought it might die of liver failure.
 
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Hentenza

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I also have no expertise in law so this is coming from my layman's understanding.

I believe international law is against these types of actions, but only in areas the US has not signed on or agreed to.


I would agree with that.

The issue I have with Trumps actions are two-fold.

1) The legal authorization to kill enemy combatants that Bush and Obama used was later seen as faulty.

2) The designation of "Narco-terrorist" is seems completely made up specifically to bypass the law to allow for these strikes.

Taken together this use of force strikes me as very problematic. Most especially since it basis the entire premise on people who voluntarily take a substance and then suffer adverse effects. Imagine if we killed people for having the audacity to brew beer simply because someone who bought it might die of liver failure.
I agree but I think that the drug problem is a bit more problematic than you suggest. I know of several people in my family and families of my friends that have either died because of drugs or have drugs destroyed their lives so I don’t particularly have much compassion for those involved in the drug trade.
 
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Belk

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I agree but I think that the drug problem is a bit more problematic than you suggest. I know of several people in my family and families of my friends that have either died because of drugs or have drugs destroyed their lives so I don’t particularly have much compassion for those involved in the drug trade.
Oh, the whole thing is horrific I grant you. That is part of why I think we should change our tactics to something that reduces the difficulties of addiction rather then increase it.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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I guess we're at the same point as I got to above. You've now reached the point where the extra judicial killing of someone just because Trump says he can is acceptable. Shoot people on the street? If Trump says it's OK, then sure. Blow up a house because drug dealers use it? If Trump says it's OK, then sure. Take out a few people without having to produce any evidence? If Trump says it's OK, then sure.

Remember when he said he could shoot someone on Fifth Ave. And suffer no consequences? Now you're agreeing that he can.

Hard to do that when they've been blown up.
Emotional hyperbole because you discovered that you did not know where and when Miranda rights apply?
 
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Oompa Loompa

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And this is what used to happen under Obama: U.S. Navy Grabs Suspected Pirates
ABC News - Breaking News, Latest News and Videos

'All of the captured suspects are middle-aged Somali men and all are now in the brig. Their fishing boat, weapons and other tools are being held as evidence.

The men were given food, medical attention and a quick shower as they were processed in the hull of the ship. Their torn clothes were replaced with orange jumpsuits as they began what will be a several-week stay with the U.S. Navy. From there, they will face trial on shore, most likely by Kenya, an African country that signed an agreement with the United States to prosecute suspected pirates.'

Do you follow? They weren't summarily killed. They were captured, evidence collected, they were processed and put on trial. That's what civilised countries do.
I do not think you follow. What part of drug cartels being designated as international terrorists while we are fighting a Global War on Terror do you not understand? They are no different than as if a boat full of ISIS fighters were on a boat full of explosives. Your defense of drug thugs, gangsters, and cartel members is why the democratic party is politically doomed.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Oh, the whole thing is horrific I grant you. That is part of why I think we should change our tactics to something that reduces the difficulties of addiction rather then increase it.
Like reducing supply by blowing up narco-terrorist drug boats on open water?
 
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Belk

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Like reducing supply by blowing up narco-terrorist drug boats on open water?
No, that makes the problem worse if you do not reduce the demand. If you reduce the supply then you end both increasing cost at the same time you reduce purity and reliability. A large part of the issue with fentanyl is that you need a specific dosage to be safe and if it has spikes or impurities it becomes more dangerous.
 
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DaisyDay

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Thats dealing with someone sins against you personally. It also does not deal with the consequences of the sin.
If your husband beats you, you have to forgive him seventy times seven. Do you think then that it absolves him of any consequences?
Your question was how many times should we keep treating addicts, once, twice or what? My answer remains as many times as it takes.

Why you want to make this about me being beaten is beyond me.
Also this scripture doesnt apply to s I ending taxpayer money to help drug addicts and how money we should spend to help them.
Perhaps you prefer Brian Kilmeade's solution of involuntary injection, just kill 'em?
Never use that argument. Its a bad one.
You have not convinced me of that. You twisted it from "the addict is harming himself" to "well, what if he were doing something entirely different that did directly harm someone else?" - talk about bad arguments!
Your husband beating on you doesn't
harm me either. But I would want to stop it because it harms you.
What is this obsession you have with me being beaten?
There is a harm to society as a whole when you are addicted to drugs.
That's an overly broad assertion. Can this addiction be managed? Is it harming anyone other than the addict? The answer will vary depending on the particulars.
Do you think no one is harmed by the drug trade?
Ah, rhetorical question that is not meant to be answered seriously.
I have no problem with our government doing that to drug dealers trying to smuggle poison into our country that has killed millions if us.
Murdering without a trial or due process? So-called smugglers who may not even be heading to our country, just blast them with a missile? Even though it has only killed us because we sought it out , paid good money for it and voluntarily took it? How is this justice?
 
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rjs330

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) The legal authorization to kill enemy combatants that Bush and Obama used was later seen as faulty.

2) The designation of "Narco-terrorist" is seems completely made up specifically to bypass the law to allow for these strikes.

Taken together this use of force strikes me as very problematic. Most especially since it basis the entire premise on people who voluntarily take a substance and then suffer adverse effects. Imagine if we killed people for having the audacity to brew beer simply because someone who bought it might die of liver failure.
You didnt watch the video Hazelpoli posted did you. It outlines a legal case for Trump doing this.

Narco-terrorist by itself most certainly does not allow for bypassing the law. Its a word used to show just how evil these people are. I support its use.

The legalities for doing this are there. There are established rulings that seem to allow these actions and until the Supreme Court rules on this case
, precedent establishes that this is most likely legal. You should watch the video.
 
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rjs330

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Your question was how many times should we keep treating addicts, once, twice or what? My answer remains as many times as it takes.

Why you want to make this about me being beaten is beyond me.
If you cant understand the example as written then I can't explain it it any clearer. You are entitled to your opinion on how many times. But you can't use scripture to support that. It doesn't not apply.

My opinion is we can and should put a limit on it. But lets move on. We aren't going to agree on that.

What we can agree on is that we should help people. That's something we can find common ground on.
Perhaps you prefer Brian Kilmeade's solution of involuntary injection, just kill 'em?
Obviously I don't since I said we should help them. Why would you say such a thing?
What is this obsession you have with me being beaten?
I think you get the point, but just want to be argumentative.
That's an overly broad assertion. Can this addiction be managed? Is it harming anyone other than the addict?
Yes it absolutely harms others. Do you need an example?
Ah, rhetorical question that is not meant to be answered seriously.
No I want an answer. Let me clarify. Do you seriously believe that no one but the addict is harmed by the drug trade?
Murdering without a trial or due process?
I don't believe its murder.
How is this justice?
Its always justice to kill those who's actions are deliberately built to cause death of others.
 
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durangodawood

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Its always justice to kill those who's actions are deliberately built to cause death of others.
Summary execution is not justice as we conceive it in the Christian west.
 
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rjs330

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Summary execution is not justice as we conceive it in the Christian west.
Depends on the law. This isn't the only case where this true. A boat load of terrorists with a dirty bomb deserve to be summarily destroyed. An airplane on its way from a foreign country to crash into downtown New York would be another example, and it would have innocents on board.

In this case we KNOW for a fact than drugs being brought in ARE going to kill Americans juat as assuredly as a dirty bomb. Justice is served in these circumstances. Once they reach the shores a different set of laws kicks in.

But up until then, the rules and laws are different.
 
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durangodawood

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Depends on the law. This isn't the only case where this true. A boat load of terrorists with a dirty bomb deserve to be summarily destroyed. An airplane on its way from a foreign country to crash into downtown New York would be another example, and it would have innocents on board.
Correct. Thats immediate self defense.

In this case we KNOW for a fact than drugs being brought in ARE going to kill Americans juat as assuredly as a dirty bomb. Justice is served in these circumstances. Once they reach the shores a different set of laws kicks in.
Totally wrong. If someone is suspected of having drugs in their vehicle they are not an immediate threat like an incoming bomb is. And so interdiction and criminal prosecution is how justice is supposed to look in the Christian west. Not summary execution.
 
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