No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[A New Dawn]

The keypharse here is "save himself". I think that is what Justin is saying, on our own, by our natural ability it is impossible to be saved, but with the aid of the Holy Spirit we can respond. Justin contrasts "our nature" with "the savior", not "our nature" with "regeneration". So the point is clear, apart from Christ, mankind cannot be saved. So I see no total depravity here. It goes well with what Justin writes in other places.

And where and when does the Holy Spirit become enabled to help up. Show me where prevenient grace is mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

 

[zoidar]

And where and when does the Holy Spirit become enabled to help up. Show me where prevenient grace is mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

The concept of prevenient grace can be seen here. The Holy Spirit will convict the world before anyone believes.

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
— John 16:7-10

 

[A New Dawn]

The concept of prevenient grace can be seen here. The Holy Spirit will convict the world before anyone believes.

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
— John 16:7-10

I think you are jumping to conclusions not in evidence with suggesting that that speaks to prevenient grace. That verse speaks to convicting (which means more to expose, refute or convince in the Greek than how we use that word) unbelievers of their sin and the judgment of a righteous God. One commentary describes the actions of the Holy Spirit as different between believers and unbelievers. It is the defender and advocate of believers, but in unbelievers it is the prosecutor. That is far from what prevenient grace is supposed to be.

In fact, there is no evidence for prevenient grace, just wishful thinking.

 

[Brightfame52]

The concept of prevenient grace can be seen here. The Holy Spirit will convict the world before anyone believes.

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
— John 16:7-10

Thats Jesus telling His apostles of the advantage they will have in their missionary endeavors because He is sending the Spirit for the spiritual conversion of those He has died for. The Spirits work is in consequence of the success of His work, it was seen in Acts 2 with Peters preaching, when Christ poured ou the Spirit when He was exalted Acts 2:33

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

It has nothing to do with your made up concept of "prevenient grace "

 

[zoidar]

I think you are jumping to conclusions not in evidence with suggesting that that speaks to prevenient grace. That verse speaks to convicting (which means more to expose, refute or convince in the Greek than how we use that word) unbelievers of their sin and the judgment of a righteous God. One commentary describes the actions of the Holy Spirit as different between believers and unbelievers. It is the defender and advocate of believers, but in unbelievers it is the prosecutor. That is far from what prevenient grace is supposed to be.

In fact, there is no evidence for prevenient grace, just wishful thinking.

From Barnes' Notes. I'm not sure about his view on prevenient grace since he was Reformed, but I think a good case can be made for prevenient grace of John 16:8. Barnes describes how the Holy Spirit works in unbelievers. That’s exactly what prevenient grace is: the Spirit’s initiative in bringing conviction to the world before faith.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

He will reprove - The word translated "reprove" means commonly to demonstrate by argument, to prove, to persuade anyone to do a thing by presenting reasons. It hence means also to convince of anything, and particularly to convince of crime. This is its meaning here. He will convince or convict the world of sin. That is, he will so apply the truths of God to men's own minds as to convince them by fair and sufficient arguments that they are sinners, and cause them to feel this. This is the nature of conviction always. The world - Sinners. The men of the world. All men are by nature sinners, and the term the world may be applied to them all, John 1:10; John 12:31; 1 John 5:19.

There is no verse that explictly states prevenient grace, but you got the same problem with pre-faith regeneration, so if you got a problem with prevenient grace from lack of evidence, you should have the same problem with pre-faith regeneration.

 

[A New Dawn]

From Barnes' Notes. I'm not sure about his view on prevenient grace since he was Reformed, but I think a good case can be made for prevenient grace of John 16:8. Barnes describes how the Holy Spirit works in unbelievers. That’s exactly what prevenient grace is: the Spirit’s initiative in bringing conviction to the world before faith.


There is no verse that explictly states prevenient grace, but you got the same problem with pre-faith regeneration, so if you got a problem with prevenient grace from lack of evidence, you should have the same problem with pre-faith regeneration.

You must seem to feel you have a lock on the ordo salutis, but the truth is, it all happens in the blink of an eye and nobody knows the precise order that God works in. I believe that all in the split second that God saves us, He grants saving faith and, BAM, the work is done. Since there is no me needing to accept or deny it, there is no conflict there.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You must seem to feel you have a lock on the ordo salutis, but the truth is, it all happens in the blink of an eye and nobody knows the precise order that God works in. I believe that all in the split second that God saves us, He grants saving faith and, BAM, the work is done. Since there is no me needing to accept or deny it, there is no conflict there.

One of the burning questions is when God decided to save His people. Did He do it before the foundation of the world, at the instant of their baptism in water, when they chose to believe the Gospel, or some other time and place?

 

[A New Dawn]

One of the burning questions is when God decided to save His people. Did He do it before the foundation of the world, at the instant of their baptism in water, when they chose to believe the Gospel, or some other time and place?

Well, I think the Bible speaks to some of that, that baptism is a statement of belief, so it is more likely it occurs prior to baptism. But my bet is on either at the foundation of the world or at the fall.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, I think the Bible speaks to some of that, that baptism is a statement of belief, so it is more likely it occurs prior to baptism. But my bet is on either at the foundation of the world or at the fall.

Thank you. I think either position has very solid support.

 

[truthuprootsevil]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

Amen

Our Father already knows what each individuals ending will be. He already knows who will and who won't accept the Lord. He already knows who has eternal life and who doesn't. He transcends time, we are stuck in it, so we're actually living out the time he has given us whose results he already knows.

As the Lord said all our Father has given him he shall lose nothing John 6:39


The Lord said my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me John 10: 28 - that is ownership, already his.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

that baptism is a statement of belief,

Chapter

 

[A New Dawn]

Chapter

Mark 16:16 (NASB95) “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Salvation is based on belief, not on baptism, according to this verse.

Also, the thief on the cross.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Also, the thief on the cross.

Really?

Jesus instituted the historic practice of Christian baptism in the Great Commission (Mt. 28) which was AFTER his resurrection but BEFORE his ascension. The first Christian baptisms occurred on the Day of Pentecost which was 50 days after the passover.

It is impossible for the thief to receive a Christian baptism as it didn't exist as an institution at the time of the thief's death. THE FIRST CHRISTIAN BAPTISMS OCCURRED ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST SOME 53 DAYS AFTER THE THIEF'S DEATH. I never tire of correcting credobaptists on this point.

 

[David Lamb]

Really?

Jesus instituted the historic practice of Christian baptism in the Great Commission (Mt. 28) which was AFTER his resurrection but BEFORE his ascension. The first Christian baptisms occurred on the Day of Pentecost which was 50 days after the passover.

It is impossible for the thief to receive a Christian baptism as it didn't exist as an institution at the time of the thief's death. THE FIRST CHRISTIAN BAPTISMS OCCURRED ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST SOME 53 DAYS AFTER THE THIEF'S DEATH. I never tire of correcting credobaptists on this point.

What of the Philippian jailer? If you say you are " correcting credobaptists on this point," you need to explain why the jailer and his household were baptised after they had believed, and why Philip responded to the Ethiopian's request for baptism by saying, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." Baptism for the jailer and the Ethiopian followed their belief. In other words, it was credobaptism.

 

[A New Dawn]

Really?

Jesus instituted the historic practice of Christian baptism in the Great Commission (Mt. 28) which was AFTER his resurrection but BEFORE his ascension. The first Christian baptisms occurred on the Day of Pentecost which was 50 days after the passover.

It is impossible for the thief to receive a Christian baptism as it didn't exist as an institution at the time of the thief's death. THE FIRST CHRISTIAN BAPTISMS OCCURRED ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST SOME 53 DAYS AFTER THE THIEF'S DEATH. I never tire of correcting credobaptists on this point.

IF baptism is required for salvation, that makes it a work. IF baptism is required for salvation, the thief on the cross WOULDN’T be seeing Jesus in paradise because he hasn’t fulfilled the demand. IF baptism is required for salvation, then it is a requirement no matter when you lived, whether before or after the church was established.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

IF baptism is required for salvation, that makes it a work. IF baptism is required for salvation, the thief on the cross WOULDN’T be seeing Jesus in paradise because he hasn’t fulfilled the demand. IF baptism is required for salvation, then it is a requirement no matter when you lived, whether before or after the church was established.

Kinda strange and bizarre reasoning. In the case of the thief, how could baptism be required if it wasn't established by Christ yet?

I am out of this conversation...

 

[Mercy Shown]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

Scripture makes clear that salvation begins with God’s gracious initiative—no one comes to Christ by their own unaided will. Jesus Himself said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). Our hearts are naturally turned away from Him, and apart from the Spirit’s work, we would never seek God (Romans 3:10–11). Yet the same Bible that teaches God’s drawing also affirms that our response to that drawing is not coerced. When God calls, He does not force Himself upon us, for love that is compelled is not love at all. Joshua stood before the people and did not say that God would choose for them; rather, he appealed, “Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15). Jesus wept over Jerusalem, lamenting that they “were not willing” (Matthew 23:37), implying that their refusal was real and meaningful. God opens hearts (Acts 16:14), but He does not eliminate the dignity of human response.

We are not saved by raw self-will or moral strength; we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8), yet faith itself is a genuine act of trust, not a divine puppet string. God awakens, convicts, and draws—but He does not drag. His call can be resisted (Acts 7:51), and His invitation can be refused (Luke 14:18–24). In His love He gives us a real choice, because anything less would reduce us to programmed servants rather than adopted children who freely love their Father. The relationship God seeks is not one of forced obedience but of willing surrender, where the heart says with joy, “Yes, Lord,” not because it must, but because grace has made it able—and free—to do so.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Ah so I can say God made me make all my wrong choices that have gone against His will. God makes me choose to sin.

It is frightening the lengths people will go to bolster this theology. Even to the point of believeing that if a child were raped it would be accoring to God's will.

The reformed theologian James White responded "yes" when asked in a debate if God is responsible for and did He decree the rape of a child, arguing that otherwise, the event would be "meaningless and purposeless". This viewpoint stems from a specific interpretation of the Calvinist doctrine of God's absolute sovereignty and divine decree, which posits that God has ordained everything that happens, including evil acts, for a specific purpose related to His glory.

Other figures within or associated with the Reformed tradition, such as John Piper and John MacArthur, have expressed similar views that all events, including heinous crimes, occur by God's will or design, although they make careful theological distinctions between God "causing" evil and "ordaining" or "permitting" it for a greater good

 

[Servus]

It is frightening the lengths people will go to bolster this theology. Even to the point of believeing that if a child were raped it would be accoring to God's will.

The reformed theologian James White responded "yes" when asked in a debate if God is responsible for and did He decree the rape of a child, arguing that otherwise, the event would be "meaningless and purposeless". This viewpoint stems from a specific interpretation of the Calvinist doctrine of God's absolute sovereignty and divine decree, which posits that God has ordained everything that happens, including evil acts, for a specific purpose related to His glory.

Other figures within or associated with the Reformed tradition, such as John Piper and John MacArthur, have expressed similar views that all events, including heinous crimes, occur by God's will or design, although they make careful theological distinctions between God "causing" evil and "ordaining" or "permitting" it for a greater good

This comes immediately to mind:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. Genesis 6:5-6

 

[Brightfame52]

Scripture makes clear that salvation begins with God’s gracious initiative—no one comes to Christ by their own unaided will. Jesus Himself said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). Our hearts are naturally turned away from Him, and apart from the Spirit’s work, we would never seek God (Romans 3:10–11).

The Drawing is the commencement of Spiritual Salvation Titus 3:5