No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[A New Dawn]

The keypharse here is "save himself". I think that is what Justin is saying, on our own, by our natural ability it is impossible to be saved, but with the aid of the Holy Spirit we can respond. Justin contrasts "our nature" with "the savior", not "our nature" with "regeneration". So the point is clear, apart from Christ, mankind cannot be saved. So I see no total depravity here. It goes well with what Justin writes in other places.

And where and when does the Holy Spirit become enabled to help up. Show me where prevenient grace is mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

 

[zoidar]

And where and when does the Holy Spirit become enabled to help up. Show me where prevenient grace is mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

The concept of prevenient grace can be seen here. The Holy Spirit will convict the world before anyone believes.

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
— John 16:7-10

 

[A New Dawn]

The concept of prevenient grace can be seen here. The Holy Spirit will convict the world before anyone believes.

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
— John 16:7-10

I think you are jumping to conclusions not in evidence with suggesting that that speaks to prevenient grace. That verse speaks to convicting (which means more to expose, refute or convince in the Greek than how we use that word) unbelievers of their sin and the judgment of a righteous God. One commentary describes the actions of the Holy Spirit as different between believers and unbelievers. It is the defender and advocate of believers, but in unbelievers it is the prosecutor. That is far from what prevenient grace is supposed to be.

In fact, there is no evidence for prevenient grace, just wishful thinking.

 

[Brightfame52]

The concept of prevenient grace can be seen here. The Holy Spirit will convict the world before anyone believes.

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
— John 16:7-10

Thats Jesus telling His apostles of the advantage they will have in their missionary endeavors because He is sending the Spirit for the spiritual conversion of those He has died for. The Spirits work is in consequence of the success of His work, it was seen in Acts 2 with Peters preaching, when Christ poured ou the Spirit when He was exalted Acts 2:33

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

It has nothing to do with your made up concept of "prevenient grace "

 

[zoidar]

I think you are jumping to conclusions not in evidence with suggesting that that speaks to prevenient grace. That verse speaks to convicting (which means more to expose, refute or convince in the Greek than how we use that word) unbelievers of their sin and the judgment of a righteous God. One commentary describes the actions of the Holy Spirit as different between believers and unbelievers. It is the defender and advocate of believers, but in unbelievers it is the prosecutor. That is far from what prevenient grace is supposed to be.

In fact, there is no evidence for prevenient grace, just wishful thinking.

From Barnes' Notes. I'm not sure about his view on prevenient grace since he was Reformed, but I think a good case can be made for prevenient grace of John 16:8. Barnes describes how the Holy Spirit works in unbelievers. That’s exactly what prevenient grace is: the Spirit’s initiative in bringing conviction to the world before faith.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

He will reprove - The word translated "reprove" means commonly to demonstrate by argument, to prove, to persuade anyone to do a thing by presenting reasons. It hence means also to convince of anything, and particularly to convince of crime. This is its meaning here. He will convince or convict the world of sin. That is, he will so apply the truths of God to men's own minds as to convince them by fair and sufficient arguments that they are sinners, and cause them to feel this. This is the nature of conviction always. The world - Sinners. The men of the world. All men are by nature sinners, and the term the world may be applied to them all, John 1:10; John 12:31; 1 John 5:19.

There is no verse that explictly states prevenient grace, but you got the same problem with pre-faith regeneration, so if you got a problem with prevenient grace from lack of evidence, you should have the same problem with pre-faith regeneration.

 

[A New Dawn]

From Barnes' Notes. I'm not sure about his view on prevenient grace since he was Reformed, but I think a good case can be made for prevenient grace of John 16:8. Barnes describes how the Holy Spirit works in unbelievers. That’s exactly what prevenient grace is: the Spirit’s initiative in bringing conviction to the world before faith.


There is no verse that explictly states prevenient grace, but you got the same problem with pre-faith regeneration, so if you got a problem with prevenient grace from lack of evidence, you should have the same problem with pre-faith regeneration.

You must seem to feel you have a lock on the ordo salutis, but the truth is, it all happens in the blink of an eye and nobody knows the precise order that God works in. I believe that all in the split second that God saves us, He grants saving faith and, BAM, the work is done. Since there is no me needing to accept or deny it, there is no conflict there.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You must seem to feel you have a lock on the ordo salutis, but the truth is, it all happens in the blink of an eye and nobody knows the precise order that God works in. I believe that all in the split second that God saves us, He grants saving faith and, BAM, the work is done. Since there is no me needing to accept or deny it, there is no conflict there.

One of the burning questions is when God decided to save His people. Did He do it before the foundation of the world, at the instant of their baptism in water, when they chose to believe the Gospel, or some other time and place?

 

[A New Dawn]

One of the burning questions is when God decided to save His people. Did He do it before the foundation of the world, at the instant of their baptism in water, when they chose to believe the Gospel, or some other time and place?

Well, I think the Bible speaks to some of that, that baptism is a statement of belief, so it is more likely it occurs prior to baptism. But my bet is on either at the foundation of the world or at the fall.