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Refuting Losing Salvation!

WordSword

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Galatians 5:4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” “Whosoever” is not a confirmation but a supposition, thus it can be, it’s as if you have fallen from grace. These Galatians were attempting to be saved by the Law and Christianity. From what Paul said it can be seen that these Galatians had not fully decided to continue this error, mixing the Law with Christianity, which is impossible (Gal 5:10). It’s obvious they were more vulnerable than the other Galatians. Although they were still saved (but ignorant), it should also be realized that Christianity and the Law were new to all the Galatians, and they were also obviously susceptible to the knowledge of the Law. “Who did hinder you from obeying the truth?” The disobedience to the truth was, again, that they were trying to mix law with grace, which I believe they finally understood the impossibility of, from Paul showing them truth. “Should not obey the truth” is less convicting than “did not obey the truth.” “Should not” is not confirmative as “did not.” (NC)



Albert Barnes: Gal 5:4 “Ye are fallen from grace" "This passage does not prove that anyone who has ever been a true Christian has fallen away. The fair interpretation of the passage does not demand that. Its simple and obvious meaning is, that if a man who has been a professed Christian should be justified by his own conformity to the Law, and adopt that mode of justification, then that would amount to a rejection of the mode of salvation by Christ, and would be a renouncing of the plan of justification by grace. The two systems cannot be united. The adoption of the one is, in fact, a rejection of the other. Christ will be “a whole Savior,” or none. This passage, therefore cannot be adduced to prove that any true Christian has in fact fallen away from grace, unless it proves also that man may be justified by the deeds of the Law, contrary to the repeated declarations of Paul himself. The word “grace” here, does not mean grace in the sense of personal religion, it means the “system” of salvation by grace, in contradistinction from that by merit or by works."

Albert Barnes: Heb 6:6 “If they shall fall away . . .” “That is, this would amount to apostasy from the religion of the Redeemer, and would be in fact a rejection of the grace of the gospel. That this had ever in fact occurred among true Christians the apostle does not affirm unless he affirmed that people can in fact be justified by the Law, since he makes the falling from grace a consequence of that. But did Paul mean to teach that? Did he mean to affirm that any man in fact had been, or could be justified by his own obedience to the Law? Let his own writings answer; see, especially, Romans 3:20. But unless he held that, then this passage does not prove that anyone who has ever been a true Christian has fallen away.

“It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it; but the statement is, that “on the supposition that they had fallen away,” it would be impossible to renew them again (it would require re-sacrificing the Lord Jesus, an impossibility—NC). It is the same as supposing a case which in fact might never occur: as if we should say, “had a man fallen down a precipice it would be impossible to save him,” or “had the child fallen into the stream he would certainly have been drowned.” But though this literally means, “having fallen away,” yet the sense in the connection in which it stands is not improperly expressed by our common translation. The Syriac has given a version which is remarkable, not as a correct translation, but as showing what was the prevailing belief in the time in which it was made, (probably the first or second century), in regard to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. “For it is impossible that they who have been baptized, and who have tasted the gift which is from heaven, and have received the spirit of holiness, and have tasted the good word of God, and the power of the coming age, should again sin, so that they should be renewed again to repentance, and again crucify the Son of God and put him to ignominy.

“Here it means undoubtedly to “apostatize from” (apostates were never saved—NC) and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away. He makes a statement of what would occur on the supposition that such a thing should happen - but a statement may be made of what would occur on the supposition that a certain thing should take place, and yet it be morally certain that the event never would happen. It would be easy to suppose what would happen if the ocean should overflow a continent, or if the sun should cease to rise, and still there be entire certainty that such an event never would occur.

“To renew them again” - Implying that they had been before renewed, or had been true Christians. The word “again” - πάλιν palin - supposes this; and this passage, therefore, confirms the considerations suggested above, showing that they were true Christians who were referred to. They had once repented, but it would be impossible to bring them to this state “again.” This declaration of course is to be read in connection with the first clause of Hebrews 6:4, “It is impossible to renew again to repentance those who once were true Christians should they fall away.” I know of no declaration more unambiguous than this. It is a positive declaration. It is not that it would be very difficult to do it; or that it would be impossible for man to do it, though it might be done by God; it is an unequivocal and absolute declaration that it would be utterly impracticable that it should be done by anyone, or by any means; and this, I have no doubt, is the meaning of the apostle. Should a Christian fall from grace, he “must perish,” he never could be saved.

“They crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh . . .” “It means that such an act of apostasy would be equivalent to crucifying him in an aggravated manner. Of course this is to be taken “figuratively.” It could not be literally true that they could thus crucify the Redeemer (again, impossible to re-crucify Christ—NC). “The meaning is, that their conduct would be “as if” they had crucified him; it would bear a strong resemblance to the act by which the Lord Jesus was publicly rejected and condemned to die. The act of crucifying the Son of God was the great crime which out-peers any other deed of human guilt. Yet the apostle says that should they who had been true Christians fall away and reject him, they would be guilty of a similar crime. It would be a public and solemn act of rejecting him. It would show that if they had been there they would have joined in the cry “crucify him, crucify him.”

Albert Barnes: 2Pe 2:22—“The sow that was washed . . . “This proverb is not found in the Old Testament, but it was common in the Rabbinical writings, and is found in the Greek classics. See Wetstein, in loc. Its meaning is plain, and of the truth of what is affirmed no one can have any doubt. No matter how clean the swine is made by washing, this would not prevent it, in the slightest degree, from rolling in filth again. It will act out its real nature. So it is with the sinner. No external reformation will certainly prevent his returning to his former habits; and when he does return, we can only say that he is acting according to his real nature - a nature which has never been changed, any more than the nature of the dog or the swine. On the characteristics of the persons referred to in this chapter, 2 Peter 2:9-19, see the introduction, Section 3.

“This passage is often quoted to prove “the possibility of falling from grace, and from a very high degree of it too.” But it is one of the last passages in the Bible that should be adduced to prove that doctrine. The true point of this passage is to show that the persons referred to never “were changed;” that whatever external reformation might have occurred, their nature remained the same; and that when they apostatized from their outward profession, they merely acted out their nature, and showed that in fact there had been “no” real change. This passage will prove - that there are abundant facts to confirm - that persons may reform externally, and then return again to their former corrupt habits; it can never be made to prove that one true Christian will fall away and perish. It will also prove that we should rely on no mere external reformation, no outward cleansing, as certain evidence of piety. Thousands who have been externally reformed have ultimately shown that they had no religion, and there is nothing in mere outward reformation that can suit us for heaven. God looks upon the heart; and it is only the religion that has its seat there, that can secure our final salvation.”

Albert Barnes: Heb 10:26 “For if we sin willfully,....]” “Which is not to be understood of a single act of sin, but rather of a course of sinning; nor of sins of infirmity through temptation, or even of grosser acts of sin, but of voluntary ones; and not of all voluntary ones, or in which the will is engaged and concerned, but of such which are done on set purpose, resolutely and obstinately; and not of immoral practices, but of corrupt principles, and acting according to them; it intends a total apostasy from the truth, against light and evidence, joined with obstinacy.

“After that we have received the knowledge of the truth;” “Either of Jesus Christ, or of the Scriptures, or of the Gospel, or of some particular doctrine, especially the principal one, salvation by Christ; of which there may be a notional knowledge, when there is no experimental knowledge; and which is received not into the heart, but into the head: and whereas the apostle speaks in the first person plural, we, this is used not so much with regard to himself, but others; that so what he delivered might come with greater weight upon them, and be more readily received by them; when they observed he entertained no hard thoughts or jealousies of them, which would greatly distress the minds of those that were truly gracious. Moreover, the apostles use this way of speaking, when they do not design themselves at all, but others, under the same visible profession of religion, and who belonged to the same community of believers; see 1 Peter 4:3 compared with Acts 22:3. Besides, these words are only hypothetical, and do not prove that true believers could, or should, or do sin in this manner: to which may be added, that true believers are manifestly distinguished from these persons, Hebrews 10:38.”



Albert Barnes - Heb 10:39. “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition,....”. There is a drawing back which is not unto perdition; persons may be attended with much unbelief, may be very cold and indifferent to Gospel ordinances, may fall into great sins, and may greatly backslide, and yet be recovered, as David, Peter, and others: and there is a drawing back to perdition; when Christ is rejected as the alone Saviour; when he is not held to as the head; when false doctrines and damnable heresies are given into; and when men draw back, and never return, nor are they, nor can they be returned, and their apostasy is total, and final: but true believers do not, and cannot draw back in this sense; because they are held fast in the arms, and with the cords of everlasting love, are chosen of God unto salvation, are given unto Christ, and secured in him; they are redeemed and purchased by him; they are united to him, and built upon him; they are interested in his prayers and preparations, and are his jewels, and his portion; they are regenerated, sanctified, inhabited, and sealed by the Spirit of God, and have the promises and power of God, on their side.”
 
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Delvianna

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I don't really want to turn this into a debate, but maybe give you other thoughts/ideas to look into. I'm just going to address 2 things without going point by point because I think it matters as a whole and where I think the issue lies.

Galatians 5:4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” “Whosoever” is not a confirmation but a supposition, thus it can be, it’s as if you have fallen from grace. These Galatians were attempting to be saved by the Law and Christianity. From what Paul said it can be seen that these Galatians had not fully decided to continue this error, mixing the Law with Christianity, which is impossible (Gal 5:10). It’s obvious they were more vulnerable than the other Galatians. Although they were still saved (but ignorant), it should also be realized that Christianity and the Law were new to all the Galatians, and they were also obviously susceptible to the knowledge of the Law. “Who did hinder you from obeying the truth?” The disobedience to the truth was, again, that they were trying to mix law with grace, which I believe they finally understood the impossibility of, from Paul showing them truth. “Should not obey the truth” is less convicting than “did not obey the truth.” “Should not” is not confirmative as “did not.” (NC)

There are 3 types of Laws and you aren't specifying which type of law Galatians is referring to. This is paramount in order to understand Pauls arguments. The term "the law" isn't a single instance and you can't apply it to everything because then you're conflating the different laws which makes interpreting passages in error if you apply the word "law" as all the same thing.
1) Moral (10 commandments)
2) Ceremonial (used for atonement)
3) Civil (used when Israel was under God's rule before kings took over)

Paul is referring to the ceremonial laws. These are the laws that Christ fulfilled. The requirement to keep "clean", to sacrifice for the atonement of their sins. They were trying to be saved by this law of atonement, when Christs death is the atonement. The Jews understood that their sins (the moral laws they break which is the 10 commandments) needed to be atoned for and so they thought that following the ceremonial law would save them when Christ fulfilled the requirements of that law. So if they would go to Christ for their forgiveness instead of sacrifices, their sins would be forgiven. It's important to understand this when arguing law vs grace.

Now, the rest of it you don't give evidence for, you only deduce your conclusion by circular belief that they are still saved (but ignorant). That's not an argument, that's just stating your already held belief. The rest of your commentary isn't a good argument for your premise here, because I don't think you understand the laws very well.

Albert Barnes: Gal 5:4Ye are fallen from grace" "This passage does not prove that anyone who has ever been a true Christian has fallen away. The fair interpretation of the passage does not demand that. Its simple and obvious meaning is, that if a man who has been a professed Christian should be justified by his own conformity to the Law, and adopt that mode of justification, then that would amount to a rejection of the mode of salvation by Christ, and would be a renouncing of the plan of justification by grace. The two systems cannot be united. The adoption of the one is, in fact, a rejection of the other. Christ will be “a whole Savior,” or none. This passage, therefore cannot be adduced to prove that any true Christian has in fact fallen away from grace, unless it proves also that man may be justified by the deeds of the Law, contrary to the repeated declarations of Paul himself. The word “grace” here, does not mean grace in the sense of personal religion, it means the “system” of salvation by grace, in contradistinction from that by merit or by works."

Your conclusions that they adopted a different mode of justification is ignoring the definition of the word "fallen". That implies it was held, and then lost. Up vs down.

Galatians 5 - Click for Chapter
4 2673 [e]
4 katērgēthēte
4 κατηργήθητε
4 You are severed
4 V-AIP-2P
575 [e]
apo
ἀπὸ
from
Prep
5547 [e]
Christou
Χριστοῦ ,
Christ
N-GMS
3748 [e]
hoitines
οἵτινες
whoever
RelPro-NMP
1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep
3551 [e]
nomō
νόμῳ
[the] Law
N-DMS
1344 [e]
dikaiousthe
δικαιοῦσθε ;
are being justified
V-PIM/P-2P
3588 [e]
tēs
τῆς
from
Art-GFS
5485 [e]
charitos
χάριτος
grace
N-GFS
1601 [e]
exepesate
ἐξεπέσατε .
you have fallen away


So the greek word for fallen is ἐξεπέσατε which means:
1. to drop away
2. (specially) be driven out of one's course
3. (figuratively) to lose, become inefficient

You also mention "works" and don't define that either. There are 2 types of works.
1) Works of the Ceremonial Law (circumcision, sacrifices) which is what the bible preaches against.
2) Faith based that proves salvation, which is what James talked about how this type of works proves your faith. Abraham willing to sacrifice Isaac is used as a reference for this.
Don't forget Peter, James and 1 John all argue for faith based works that proves salvation, so it's important to understand the distinction here too. So when the bible talks about works don't save you, its referencing the ceremonial works, thinking you are being cleansed of your sins because you did them, which is no longer the case as Christ fulfills the ceremonial requirement for atonement.

So you use these 2 terms (law and works) and I don't think you understand either very well which is leading you to a false conclusion.

The idea is, God will save you but just like Christ gave the parable of the vine, you have to abide in him continuously or you will wither, die and be thrown into the fire. Our salvation is based on an agreement that we make between us and God. We have to uphold our end of the agreement by following the 10 commandments, because God wants us to and he is King. As he states several times that people who continually sit in sin, will not enter his kingdom and God will forgive us of our sins as we walk with him. We will never be perfect, we will stumble and he is faithful to forgive us of our sins, but we can absolutely fall away by turning our backs on God and the agreement that we entered into (following the 10 commandments). That means WE broke the covenant, not God.

Also think of it this way, if God doesn't force people to follow him or choose him, if someone turned their back on God after being "saved" at some point in their life, do you honestly think God would hold them against their will? Heaven is God's house. If they don't want to be there, they won't be. Because saying someone never loses salvation is essentially by proxy saying people will be forced against their will to be around God when they don't want to be.
 
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WordSword

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There are 3 types of Laws and you aren't specifying which type of law Galatians is referring to.
Hi D and appreciate much your reply, it's very probing. Actually I'm referring to the Pentateuch, the entire Law of Moses, none of which exits now. Some do not accept that the Law is part of the Decalogue, but the Law began with it.
Your conclusions that they adopted a different mode of justification is ignoring the definition of the word "fallen". That implies it was held, and then lost. Up vs down.
One can "fall" from a false profession, from the doctrine of faith, but not from true faith. They didn't fall from salvation because they weren't saved, they fell from the doctrine faith but not from salvation itself.
You also mention "works" and don't define that either.
The only works that are works are those which are through God.
We will never be perfect, we will stumble and he is faithful to forgive us of our sins, but we can absolutely fall away by turning our backs on God and the agreement that we entered into (following the 10 commandments). That means WE broke the covenant, not God.
We must be aware that the Decalogue was not only to God's people Israel, it no longer exists, even for the Jew.
do you honestly think God would hold them against their will?
It can be said that anyone that God is "working in" will never desire to leave Him, because He knows all we want to do now is "please" Him (Phl 2:13). If one ever says he does not want to please Him it will be due to God never "working" in him!
 
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Delvianna

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Hi D and appreciate much your reply, it's very probing. Actually I'm referring to the Pentateuch, the entire Law of Moses, none of which exits now. Some do not accept that the Law is part of the Decalogue, but the Law began with it.
Hi there :) The entire law that was given by Moses started with the 10 commandments but that was very different by the subsequent ceremonial laws that he then gave later. Both are in the Pentuateuch, but the idea of the laws are separate. The Israelites needed the 10 commandments in order to know they needed to sacrifice in the first place. That's why there is a distinction. But there are verses that show there was laws and commands even before Moses (Genesis 26:5) as sacrificing was being done before Moses wrote it down (Genesis 22:9-13). This shows that the rules weren't new, it was just Moses wrote it down and gave it to the Israelite's. But the 10 commandments are still in effect because how would people repent during the tribulation period if they don't know what to repent for?? This is why it's important to make that distinction between the 10 moral laws and the ceremonial laws since the ceremonial laws don't save and its no longer necessary.

One can "fall" from a false profession, from the doctrine of faith, but not from true faith. They didn't fall from salvation because they weren't saved, they fell from the doctrine faith but not from salvation itself.
That's an assumption though. There are instances of Pastors who preach for decades, who eventually turn away from God because their child died or spouse, or some big instance that makes them upset at God and so they leave.

We must be aware that the Decalogue was not only to God's people Israel, it no longer exists, even for the Jew.
What do you repent for then?

Revelation 9:21 (New King James Version)
"And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts."
Revelation 3:19
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."
If the moral laws don't exist, the point of the tribulation becomes pointless and the word repent also becomes pointless. You're essentially saying there is no moral law or order when the 10 commandments IS the moral law.

It can be said that anyone that God is "working in" will never desire to leave Him, because He knows all we want to do now is "please" Him (Phl 2:13). If one ever says he does not want to please Him it will be due to God never "working" in him!
I'm going to quote you from under Hebrews 6:4
Yet the apostle says that should they who had been true Christians fall away and reject him, they would be guilty of a similar crime.
I agree... which infers that it CAN be done. If it couldn't, it wouldn't be said. So you get the idea of the verse, but then go off in another direction with your final answer. The conclusion of the writer in hebrews notes that if this is done...
But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
Again, this is an US thing. WE can turn from God and lose what we started. Does God go after us and attempt to get us back? Absolutely, but we are still given free will. The idea that God will save us against our will, is not biblical.
 
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WordSword

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Hi there :) The entire law that was given by Moses started with the 10 commandments but that was very different by the subsequent ceremonial laws that he then gave later.
Hi! Some think the Decalogue is separate from all the other laws, but James is a good example that everything in the Pentateuch is Law: Jas 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Besides it must be realized that the Law was not only given solely to the nation of Israel, but that the entirety of it, including the Decalogue was "taken away" with the OT, when Christ said "it is finished." "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Heb 10:9).

The idea that God will save us against our will, is not biblical.
True, then God would be "trespassing!" The concept that God would only chooses certain people for salvation is not sensible, because He "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1Ti 2:4).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2Pe 3:9; ).
 
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Delvianna

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Hi! Some think the Decalogue is separate from all the other laws, but James is a good example that everything in the Pentateuch is Law: Jas 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Besides it must be realized that the Law was not only given solely to the nation of Israel, but that the entirety of it, including the Decalogue was "taken away" with the OT, when Christ said "it is finished." "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Heb 10:9).
You're applying the whole law just because of the word "whole" when the context of James is talking 10 commandments. What is verse 11 and 12?
"For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."
You're applying your already pre-thought ideas instead of just reading the verse and looking at the surrounding verses for the context. The same in what you're doing with the word Law or Works from previous comments. When reading scripture, don't pre-apply anything. Instead, suppose you aren't sure what exactly they're talking about and read the chapter to give you context. When you talk to someone standing in front of you, do you refer to what they said a day ago in order to understand what they're telling you today or do you apply whatever they're saying to you right now? We got to do the same when we read letters and books.

True, then God would be "trespassing!" The concept that God would only chooses certain people for salvation is not sensible, because He "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1Ti 2:4).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2Pe 3:9; ).
True, but desire and what happens is 2 different things. I can desire a lamborguini, but that doesn't mean I get it. God goes after and strives that no one will be lost, but he still allows us to make our own decisions and that includes the decisions that lead us to destruction.
 
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WordSword

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He still allows us to make our own decisions and that includes the decisions that lead us to destruction.
I believe that God's "work" in Christians keeps them in the "desire" of "pleasing" Him (Phl 2:13). If at any time a professing Christian does not want to please God, it manifests He was not in him.
 
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Delvianna

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I believe that God's "work" in Christians keeps them in the "desire" of "pleasing" Him (Phl 2:13). If at any time a professing Christian does not want to please God, it manifests He was not in him.
What is the context of Philippians 2? It's talking about working out your salvation daily so that at the end you will be saved but the verse you quote is about God working through you to do good works and has nothing to do with keeping the desire in God. You saying "God's work in Christians keeps them in the "desire" of "pleasing" Him" and then quote Philippians which is out of context to your statement. That verse does not back up your statement. You're coming to conclusions that isn't backed up by scripture.

This is why you have letters to Churches in Revelation, people who were following Christ but fell away.. (remember these are churches which is depicted as lamp stands. The "light" of a lamp stand is the truth of God and shining that light to others, is to depict God's truth which is what a church is supposed to do. This is why Christ is the "light of the world". So these are people who don't just know the truth, but at some point, acted on it. You can't project light like a lamp stand does unless you're living that truth out.)
  • Ephesus
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
  • Smyrna
Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.
What would happen if you aren't faithful to the point of death? If this was just a standard automatic still saved, this wording is pointless and this is Jesus speaking.
  • Pergamum
Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.
Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
He's fighting against the people who are in the church that also hold to the teachings of Balaam or the Nicolatians.
  • Thyatira
I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.
So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
  • Sardis
I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
If the works that are started ALWAYS turn out to be salvation that doesn't end, then Sardis makes zero sense when something is "unfinished" and "about to die".
  • Laodicea
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
In the body, out of the body. If you spit something out of your body, it is no longer in the body. It's the idea of throwing it up. Since we are "in the body" of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:12), if Christ spits you out, you are out of the body and no longer in it. Since in the body is salvation, that is a loss. This in itself contradicts your statement and interpretation of Philippians.

If something contradicts in the bible, you can't say it is truth. Everything has to be cohesive and the idea that you can't lose salvation, goes against too much scripture and makes other scripture pointless to even be said. This is why Jesus warned to stay with him. It is our choice to stay with him and continue to work our our salvation with him that keeps us saved.

2 Peter 2:11-13
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;

13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Look at all those "if" statements. That's not a 100% sure salvation stance, that is IF we do this, THEN this happens. You can't disown something you never had in the first place. So, IF we disown Jesus, he will disown us. Loss of salvation.
 
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